Civilians: How?

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Dohon
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Civilians: How?

Post by Dohon »

DW will have Civilians, but I don't quite understand their "inner" workings. In fact, I have a lot of unanswered questions. ;) I tried a forum search, but it didn't enlighten me much I'm afraid. But then I could be going blind though). So, I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on the matter.

Here goes:

1) How are civilian ships produced? Does the player (aka the overlord) build those ships?

2) If those ships are build outside of the players control, will they still take credits and resources from the treasury?

3) Are there civilian mines and mining ships so they can extract their own resources?

4) Can the player build their own version of civilian ships, say, transports for transporting gas from refinery stations at gas giants?

5) Are their civilian versions of "escorts"? Or is only the player responsible for the safety of the shipping lines and so forth?

6) Do civilian traders actually trade resources between empires? Or are resources traded using a "trade" screen and then magically switched and added to your stocks?

7) Do civilians automatically transport colonists to new (but already established by a colony ship) colonies? If so, what are the conditions? Is it random or do high-population worlds feel a certain "overcrowding" pressure and as such expel some colonists?

8) Do civilian ships require upkeep in any way?

And I think I'm done. ;)
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

6) Do civilian traders actually trade resources between empires? Or are resources traded using a "trade" screen and then magically switched and added to your stocks?

This one interests me too. It was stated that migration is done via transport ships and not abstracted in the background. That is preferable.
Resources collected, like from a gas planet, are transfered via transport ships. That is preferable.

-When we trade resources via diplomacy are the resources moved via time and transport ships to the relevant empires? That would be preferable.
-When we trade resources via diplomacy are the resources moved via abstraction in the background; instantly or over time? That would be LESS preferable.
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Justascratch
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Justascratch »

Can you conduct convoy raids against civilian shipping to impact their economy?

Can you conduct Yankee Trader raids - convoy raiding blamed on another player?

Can you direct civiian traffic away from hot spots until the military makes it safe?
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Webbco
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Webbco »

Dohon, the answer to number 6 is yes, they do transport actual commodities (from what I read...somewhere. This forum has grown a lot in the past few weeks so I can't find anything easily any more!). 

*edit: although I'm not 100% sure whether it's actually between empires, sorry for not reading the question properly[:(]*
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

Can you conduct convoy raids against civilian shipping to impact their economy?
Yes, but targeting civilian/trade ships will lower your reputaion with other(assuming known) empires.
 
Can you direct civiian traffic away from hot spots until the military makes it safe?
Yes. You can take control or let the automation feature handle many aspects.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Dohon
1) How are civilian ships produced? Does the player (aka the overlord) build those ships?

The private sector decides when it needs more ships and what kind and where to build them.
2) If those ships are build outside of the players control, will they still take credits and resources from the treasury?

The private economy has its own funds. They will use your shipyards for construction, so you will get additional money from the private economy when they need to use a shipyard to build a ship. It will also fill up a slot in that shipyard until construction is complete.
3) Are there civilian mines and mining ships so they can extract their own resources?

There are private mining ships. The larger mining stations are created by the state.
4) Can the player build their own version of civilian ships, say, transports for transporting gas from refinery stations at gas giants?

I haven't actually tried this, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work in theory. I'll have to try this to confirm though.
5) Are their civilian versions of "escorts"? Or is only the player responsible for the safety of the shipping lines and so forth?

Fundamentally, the state is responsible for security and is expected to build and maintain enough ships to keep shipping lanes secure. If you don't, your economy can be quite vulnerable in times of conflict and piracy. With that said, it may be possible to adjust the civilian ship designs to give them some armament as well. Again, not something I have personally tried.
6) Do civilian traders actually trade resources between empires? Or are resources traded using a "trade" screen and then magically switched and added to your stocks?

Not sure I understand the exact question, but I'll answer as I understand it. Civilian freighters can absolutely trade with other empires. They look for a profit and in some cases they may decide the best profit is with a friendly alien race rather than you. But given security concerns and fuel costs, the majority will choose the easier, safer routes among your own systems. The private sector generally does a very good job of distributing resources efficiently where needed among your facilities, as long as you have enough supply to meet demand.
7) Do civilians automatically transport colonists to new (but already established by a colony ship) colonies? If so, what are the conditions? Is it random or do high-population worlds feel a certain "overcrowding" pressure and as such expel some colonists?

Basically yes. There's migration both within your own systems and across boundaries with other empires. People want to live in a better place with lower taxes and more development, etc. Overcrowded worlds will generally send colonist to less crowded worlds, but apart from that happiness, development and taxes play a pretty big role. This generally tends to lead to a fair amount of immigration going to the nicest new colony worlds that are close to existing trade/supply routes, as well as to good established worlds that still have plenty of room for growth.
8) Do civilian ships require upkeep in any way?

The private sector pays for its own upkeep and fuel, some of that can go to the state if they are using your space ports and shipyards. The upkeep they pay reduces their bottom line, which also affects how quickly they will build new ships, establish new routes and generate additional tax revenues, etc.
Erik Rutins
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Dohon
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Dohon »

Thank you very much, Erik! Your answers made me even more excited to play the game!

Oh, I do have one small question remaining. You said the Civilian sector would build their own ships. Do they also design their own ships? Or will they use your own designs?

EDIT: And regarding my question about Civilian freighters trading resources: Say you want to trade 1000 units of Metal for 1000 units of gold with another empire. Would your freighters actually have to pick up those 1000 units, ship them to the other empire's trading station while they send a freighter of your own with 1000 units of gold?
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

These innovative game elements between civilian and government operations seem excellent.
 
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

ORIGINAL: Dohon
EDIT: And regarding my question about Civilian freighters trading resources: Say you want to trade 1000 units of Metal for 1000 units of gold with another empire. Would your freighters actually have to pick up those 1000 units, ship them to the other empire's trading station while they send a freighter of your own with 1000 units of gold?
Seconded. That's what I'm wondering too. I hope those elements are in game.

Maybe there is no resource trading in the diplomacy screen. Maybe it's only like he said how the civilians might sometimes sell/trade at a friendly neighboring empire.
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Sarissofoi
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Sarissofoi »

BTW I know that attacking passangers ships  will lower your reputaion. But what about attacking ships with resources?
This is bassicaly piracy but in times of war it is allowed and desirable(if you attack at enemy private ships).
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Gargantou
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Gargantou »

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

BTW I know that attacking passangers ships  will lower your reputaion. But what about attacking ships with resources?
This is bassicaly piracy but in times of war it is allowed and desirable(if you attack at enemy private ships).
Wasn't piracy generally left to hired privateers though, rather than the state-navy?
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

That has been my point when I talked in other threads about attacking civilian/trade ships of a low reputation race should not lower my reputation. It seems that many people disagreed with me because they thought that I was referring to just population transport ships.
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

ORIGINAL: Gargantou
ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

BTW I know that attacking passangers ships  will lower your reputaion. But what about attacking ships with resources?
This is bassicaly piracy but in times of war it is allowed and desirable(if you attack at enemy private ships).
Wasn't piracy generally left to hired privateers though, rather than the state-navy?
No. Navies of many nations in many wars sunk enemy supply ships often. It seems logical to helping to win a war. It should not lower reputation. It is the same as and as wise as destroying supply trucks, trains, rail roads, and troop transports.
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Sarissofoi
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Sarissofoi »

I dont see reason why attacking fraghters should lower reputation at all. I mean fraighter transport resources needed for enemy industry, army and fleet.
In IWW and IIWW German use submarines and raiders(mostly fast criusers) to attack Allies fraighters and conwoys. USA do something similar on Pacific in IIWW.

On the other hand attacking passangers ships with civilians are simply terror act.
But terror is another tool of war.
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Gargantou
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Gargantou »

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

I dont see reason why attacking fraghters should lower reputation at all. I mean fraighter transport resources needed for enemy industry, army and fleet.
In IWW and IIWW German use submarines and raiders(mostly fast criusers) to attack Allies fraighters and conwoys. USA do something similar on Pacific in IIWW.

On the other hand attacking passangers ships with civilians are simply terror act.
But terror is another tool of war.
Well said, assuming the two are seperates, there should be a far bigger penalty for targetting ships that are only transporting civilians/passengers, rather than targetting freighters transporting materials vital to the war effort.
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Sarissofoi
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Sarissofoi »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Prize_Warfare

Actually there should be possibility to capture enemy fraighters and then destroy ship with cargo or send to home base.

And with blockades, attacks against fraighters, privatering and old pirace there should be blockade runners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_runner

BTW
1)How pirates are able to profit from destroying fraighters?
2)Can you use pirate faction to attack enemy or rival trade?
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by ASHBERY76 »

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

BTW I know that attacking passangers ships  will lower your reputaion. But what about attacking ships with resources?
This is bassicaly piracy but in times of war it is allowed and desirable(if you attack at enemy private ships).

I think a neutral Alien empire would not like trading ships destroyed either,because in theory it would cost them money in trade.So a lesser reputation hit is realistic.

This is not WW2 or the 1700's.
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by ASHBERY76 »

Delete this.
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Wade1000
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Wade1000 »

ORIGINAL:  elliotg
Pirates don't colonize planets - they a base that they operate from, usually at a gas giant planet or gas cloud (for fuel).
As they attack the ships and bases of other empires they are able to grow their fleet and upgrade their ships and base.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2411303 ('Pirates')

(Edited upon further thought.)
Elliotg did not elaborate. From what he says, I assume that the pirate gains of power upgrades from them destroying assets is abstracted. This would be okay because we might assume that the pirates have special skills that allow them to gather leftovers from a battle and make use of them on their ships and at their bases.

-Do the pirates, after or during combat, somehow captured resources and materials that they have to then use their ships to take back to their bases for processing and power upgrades?
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Sarissofoi
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RE: Civilians: How?

Post by Sarissofoi »

I agree with Wade1000. If pirates can actually capture ships and cargo and then sell it(ADD SMUGLERS)or force some protection money from traders/miners/tourist/small colonies/etc and benefeit from goverment bribes/protections fee/donations(then they can change from pirating to privatering) that will be more realistic and cool.

Ofcourse neutral empires wont be happy if you sink or capture their fraighters or fraighters whose traded with them. This was one from many reasons why USA join Allies in WW I.
Note that Allies blockaded and make war against German trade too. Thus Germans have to use blockad runners. But I mention using navy against enemy civilian cargo friaghters not against neutral.

Actually war in space in DW is similar to war on sea in WW I. At last I feel that. Era of battleships, no carriers. Stealth ships as subs.
AActually if you can customize your cvilian ships you can be able project armed and stealth fast fraighters.

Oh moar options to think.
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