Bretteville - Total Allied Victory ... even when we both agreed upon a truce.
The German BG had no cohesion left, which is the same thing that happened at Amfreville during the last battle there. I'm not sure what the German Bretteville BG's cohesion was before this battle ... but we know for sure the German Amfreville's BG had good cohesion, and then for some unknown reason went to none.
This is bad, but that's not all ... as soon as a BG has no cohesion, the battle will automatically be a total victory for the opposing side ... even when a truce is agreed upon.
A BG's cohesion dropping to none, without reason ... and further resulting in: battles being total victories, without reason ... is not acceptable for continued game play.
Hopefully this bug can be fixed. All the saved files in this forum can be used by Matrix to confirm this (if they so desire).
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/mo ... 8844#48844
cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
-
Andrew Williams
- Posts: 3862
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
Would be interested to see the results of campaigns that haven't been HEX edited where errors can occur when saving.
Well other campaigns have no similar reports.
So not sure what to think.
Well other campaigns have no similar reports.
So not sure what to think.
-
Andrew Williams
- Posts: 3862
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
do you have any un-edited save games?
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
There is NOT a cohesion bug ...
I concluded this from information relayed by an Axis player, but upon looking into the Axis saves (which I hadn't done, due to game play rules)... is seems the noted BG's had been disbanded. Then the disbanded BG returned back after a strategic move with no cohesion.
sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
Also, there was never a hex edited save file used in this campaign.
Thanks
I concluded this from information relayed by an Axis player, but upon looking into the Axis saves (which I hadn't done, due to game play rules)... is seems the noted BG's had been disbanded. Then the disbanded BG returned back after a strategic move with no cohesion.
sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
Also, there was never a hex edited save file used in this campaign.
Thanks
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
Way to dig into it Davidss!
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
Thanks for the comment.
It seems there may be a small bug related to cohesion after all, but it's gotten very confusing ... and without proper detailed answers from someone in the known, it's hard to realize what is a planned feature and what is a bug.
Nevertheless, in my opinion ... it's small, and can be tolerated until it's fixed or until further info is available.
It seems there may be a small bug related to cohesion after all, but it's gotten very confusing ... and without proper detailed answers from someone in the known, it's hard to realize what is a planned feature and what is a bug.
Nevertheless, in my opinion ... it's small, and can be tolerated until it's fixed or until further info is available.
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
In order to try and clarify some key points regarding cohesion ... I'll organize discussion of different topics into numbered sections.
1) Additional Cohesion penalties
As posted by schrechen
"Tech report.
There is some additional cohesion penalties associated with losing a battle very quickly (in the first few minutes). This was added to help mitigate the suicide defense strategy. That is probably what is kicking in here, since it sounds like he is doing the truce immediately after the battle starts. If so that would be a bug, since a truce shouldn't be triggering this penalty, only a defeat."
Question:
a) What are these additional penalties?
2) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, except an agreed truce.
2a) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, even an agreed truce.
2b) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, even an agreed truce. This is a bug ... and should not happen. This returning BG (with no cohesion) should function the same way as other "no cohesion" BG's that have not been disbanded previously.
Question:
a) Which is a correct statement "2)" or "2a)" or "2b)?
b) If the answer to Question "a)" is "2)" or "2a)"... is this an additional cohesion penalty? And therefore we can conclude ... that, if a BG returns after being disbanded and with "no cohesion" ... it means it has been penalized with the additional penalty, and therefore will always be disbanded with a total map defeat ... under any battle result, (except or even an agreed truce)?
c) If question "b)" is true ... will the additionally penalized BG ever restore its cohesion to a level which it can hold a map after battle? ... and if so how long (turns/days) will it take?
For reference:
the Amfreville German BG returned (after being disbanded) with "no cohesion" and then fought a 30 minute battle. The battle ended with 3 German VL's left, and higher morale than its Allied opponent ... but resulted in a German BG disband and total defeat. This German BG had previously suffered from a battle result described as "forces were destroyed or routed" (at Pont L'Abbe) ... and ended before time was out.
It has also been noted by mooxe, that a BG can have its cohesion reduced to "no cohesion" and still continue to hold maps. It is not conclusive that, if BG's returning after being disbanded and return with no cohesion can do the same.
3) Additional cohesion penalty to prevent suicide strategy:
This penalty is a feature to prevent players from attacking quickly with most/all units ... in order to produce a morale failure among their own BG, so less VL's can be captured by the opponent and their own BG remains on map longer than under normal circumstances?
Question:
a) If statement "3)" is true ... then is this the reason for the cohesion penalty that causes a BG to return after a disbandment (with no cohesion), and not be able to hold a map ... as described in "2) Question: b)" ?
b) True or False:
The answer to question "a)" is yes ... but this penalty should not happen when a truce is agreed upon.
For reference:
The Afreville German BG that was disbanded, … described in "2) for reference:" … happened at Pont L'Abbe. The German player didn't try to use the suicide strategy, but we had both placed our units so close to each other that when the battle started ... it was an all out fire fight until the German BG failed and disbanded. Therefore, it may have activated the suicide strategy penalty against this BG. This may explain why it returned with no cohesion, and was in the penalized weak state that forced a total defeat and disbandment again, even when the battle results suggested it should have remained on the map for another battle.
4) Once a BG's cohesion falls to its lowest possible state ... it will not be able to hold a map when in battle, and will be disbanded with total defeat, under any battle result. The same is true whether the BG has been disbanded previously or not. Once a BG falls to this lowest state, it must not engage in battle for a certain amount of time until its cohesion is restored to a certain level, and then will be able to hold a map.
If this result is not seen consistently ... then there is a related bug.
Question:
a) is statement "4)" true ... yes/no?
edit:
5) Due to so many factors involved with cohesion and its related effects on BG performance ... some random unexplained results occur ... such as a previously disbanded BG returning with no cohesion, and its related effect of disbanding again with total defeat ... even when battle results suggest it should not have disbanded.
Question:
a) Which of the below best explains what is happening?
a1) Statement "5)" is true
a2) Statement "5)" is true and programmers are trying to figure out what's going on
a3) Statement "5)" is true and is a designed feature. Programmers feel these random unexplained results reflect the randomness of real life battle occurrences.
a4) Statement "5)" is true but is a bug. But Programmers feel these random unexplained results reflect the randomness of real life battle occurrences, and therefore are going to leave it as is.
a5) Statement "5)" is false
a6) Statement "5)" is false and programmers are working to correct any inconsistencies related to cohesion and its results on BG's ... that may be caused by a bug.
1) Additional Cohesion penalties
As posted by schrechen
"Tech report.
There is some additional cohesion penalties associated with losing a battle very quickly (in the first few minutes). This was added to help mitigate the suicide defense strategy. That is probably what is kicking in here, since it sounds like he is doing the truce immediately after the battle starts. If so that would be a bug, since a truce shouldn't be triggering this penalty, only a defeat."
Question:
a) What are these additional penalties?
2) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, except an agreed truce.
2a) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, even an agreed truce.
2b) A BG returning after being disbanded with "no cohesion" ... will always get totally defeated and disbanded no matter what the battle outcome, even an agreed truce. This is a bug ... and should not happen. This returning BG (with no cohesion) should function the same way as other "no cohesion" BG's that have not been disbanded previously.
Question:
a) Which is a correct statement "2)" or "2a)" or "2b)?
b) If the answer to Question "a)" is "2)" or "2a)"... is this an additional cohesion penalty? And therefore we can conclude ... that, if a BG returns after being disbanded and with "no cohesion" ... it means it has been penalized with the additional penalty, and therefore will always be disbanded with a total map defeat ... under any battle result, (except or even an agreed truce)?
c) If question "b)" is true ... will the additionally penalized BG ever restore its cohesion to a level which it can hold a map after battle? ... and if so how long (turns/days) will it take?
For reference:
the Amfreville German BG returned (after being disbanded) with "no cohesion" and then fought a 30 minute battle. The battle ended with 3 German VL's left, and higher morale than its Allied opponent ... but resulted in a German BG disband and total defeat. This German BG had previously suffered from a battle result described as "forces were destroyed or routed" (at Pont L'Abbe) ... and ended before time was out.
It has also been noted by mooxe, that a BG can have its cohesion reduced to "no cohesion" and still continue to hold maps. It is not conclusive that, if BG's returning after being disbanded and return with no cohesion can do the same.
3) Additional cohesion penalty to prevent suicide strategy:
This penalty is a feature to prevent players from attacking quickly with most/all units ... in order to produce a morale failure among their own BG, so less VL's can be captured by the opponent and their own BG remains on map longer than under normal circumstances?
Question:
a) If statement "3)" is true ... then is this the reason for the cohesion penalty that causes a BG to return after a disbandment (with no cohesion), and not be able to hold a map ... as described in "2) Question: b)" ?
b) True or False:
The answer to question "a)" is yes ... but this penalty should not happen when a truce is agreed upon.
For reference:
The Afreville German BG that was disbanded, … described in "2) for reference:" … happened at Pont L'Abbe. The German player didn't try to use the suicide strategy, but we had both placed our units so close to each other that when the battle started ... it was an all out fire fight until the German BG failed and disbanded. Therefore, it may have activated the suicide strategy penalty against this BG. This may explain why it returned with no cohesion, and was in the penalized weak state that forced a total defeat and disbandment again, even when the battle results suggested it should have remained on the map for another battle.
4) Once a BG's cohesion falls to its lowest possible state ... it will not be able to hold a map when in battle, and will be disbanded with total defeat, under any battle result. The same is true whether the BG has been disbanded previously or not. Once a BG falls to this lowest state, it must not engage in battle for a certain amount of time until its cohesion is restored to a certain level, and then will be able to hold a map.
If this result is not seen consistently ... then there is a related bug.
Question:
a) is statement "4)" true ... yes/no?
edit:
5) Due to so many factors involved with cohesion and its related effects on BG performance ... some random unexplained results occur ... such as a previously disbanded BG returning with no cohesion, and its related effect of disbanding again with total defeat ... even when battle results suggest it should not have disbanded.
Question:
a) Which of the below best explains what is happening?
a1) Statement "5)" is true
a2) Statement "5)" is true and programmers are trying to figure out what's going on
a3) Statement "5)" is true and is a designed feature. Programmers feel these random unexplained results reflect the randomness of real life battle occurrences.
a4) Statement "5)" is true but is a bug. But Programmers feel these random unexplained results reflect the randomness of real life battle occurrences, and therefore are going to leave it as is.
a5) Statement "5)" is false
a6) Statement "5)" is false and programmers are working to correct any inconsistencies related to cohesion and its results on BG's ... that may be caused by a bug.
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
I checked out some more Axis saves, related to a possible cohesion bug.
1) The only German BG's (so far) to return back to the strategic map after being disbanded are:
a) 729/709 - disbanded with total defeat at Pont L'Abbe ... returned at Amfreville with no cohesion
b) 915/352 - disbanded with total defeat at Bayeux ... returned at Bretteville with no cohesion
2) After returning back from disbandment (with no cohesion), both of these BG’s were disbanded again … even though the battle results suggested that they should have not been disbanded.
a) 729/709 – had 3 VL’s left, and higher morale than the Allied opponent
b) 915/352 – we decided to truce immediately to see what would happen … same result as 729/709. For testing, I replayed this battle against the AI. I forced Allied units into bad situations until their morale failed, and the Axis side still had more VL’s. It still ended as a total Allied victory, and German BG disbandment.
So, a simple question … excluding any result from an agreed truce.
These returning from disbandment German BG’s (with no cohesion), that have no ability to hold a map (within several turns of returning), even when end of battle results suggest they should hold… is this by design or a bug?
1) The only German BG's (so far) to return back to the strategic map after being disbanded are:
a) 729/709 - disbanded with total defeat at Pont L'Abbe ... returned at Amfreville with no cohesion
b) 915/352 - disbanded with total defeat at Bayeux ... returned at Bretteville with no cohesion
2) After returning back from disbandment (with no cohesion), both of these BG’s were disbanded again … even though the battle results suggested that they should have not been disbanded.
a) 729/709 – had 3 VL’s left, and higher morale than the Allied opponent
b) 915/352 – we decided to truce immediately to see what would happen … same result as 729/709. For testing, I replayed this battle against the AI. I forced Allied units into bad situations until their morale failed, and the Axis side still had more VL’s. It still ended as a total Allied victory, and German BG disbandment.
So, a simple question … excluding any result from an agreed truce.
These returning from disbandment German BG’s (with no cohesion), that have no ability to hold a map (within several turns of returning), even when end of battle results suggest they should hold… is this by design or a bug?
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
OK ... found where the cohesion error started ... it was at the save 68 strategic turn.
I'm not sure what caused this cohesion error to happen ... perhaps a poor connection or something that caused data to get mixed up.
I've since tested this against AI, and found that the Amfreville BG 729/709 will hold the map even though it has no cohesion.
Also, an Allied BG returned with no cohesion ... so there must be a certain condition by which a BG is disbanded that causes them to return with no cohesion. I will look into its history and see what happened to it.
edit ... update:
The Allied BG that returned was the 231/50. I was testing for the cohesion error and forced this BG to morale fail at Bayeux before time ran out. It returned the next day at the beach with no cohesion.
So I'm thinking, from what I've seen so far ... that a BG which is disbanded before time runs out will return with no cohesion.
Recently disbanded German BG 919/709 returned at Pont L'Abbe with some cohesion, proving not all German BG's return with no cohesion.
So it appears, a BG returning with no cohesion will hold a map if battle results end in its favor. I'm sure there must be some disadvantage to having such a low state of cohesion, but not sure of what that is.
To correct this cohesion error that occurred during this strategic turn ... the Campaign will start again from this point.
I'm not sure what caused this cohesion error to happen ... perhaps a poor connection or something that caused data to get mixed up.
I've since tested this against AI, and found that the Amfreville BG 729/709 will hold the map even though it has no cohesion.
Also, an Allied BG returned with no cohesion ... so there must be a certain condition by which a BG is disbanded that causes them to return with no cohesion. I will look into its history and see what happened to it.
edit ... update:
The Allied BG that returned was the 231/50. I was testing for the cohesion error and forced this BG to morale fail at Bayeux before time ran out. It returned the next day at the beach with no cohesion.
So I'm thinking, from what I've seen so far ... that a BG which is disbanded before time runs out will return with no cohesion.
Recently disbanded German BG 919/709 returned at Pont L'Abbe with some cohesion, proving not all German BG's return with no cohesion.
So it appears, a BG returning with no cohesion will hold a map if battle results end in its favor. I'm sure there must be some disadvantage to having such a low state of cohesion, but not sure of what that is.
To correct this cohesion error that occurred during this strategic turn ... the Campaign will start again from this point.
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
From what I tell ... there is NOT a cohesion bug
The problem we had in the campaign we were playing seems to have been caused by some data getting mixed up ... possibly from a bad connection between players, or something like that.
The problem we had in the campaign we were playing seems to have been caused by some data getting mixed up ... possibly from a bad connection between players, or something like that.
-
Andrew Williams
- Posts: 3862
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
thanks David
We are looking at it in any case... but nice work.
We are looking at it in any case... but nice work.
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
Upon further testing with Allied save 68 ... I have again encountered 729/709 being disbanded with total defeat when the battle results suggested they should have held.
I tried it earlier about six times and it worked as it should, but now with further tests ... I'm back to getting that problem again.
save 68 is right on a strategic turn ... so maybe that is the problem. For testing ... I've removed all but the save file I'm using. Having other saves at various stages seems to all blend together with the latest played result, which adds further confusion.
Sometimes the no cohesion BG's have appropriate battle results, and other times with the exact save downloaded again and put in the save folder by itself ... ends up with this same no cohesion BG failing to hold a map under any battle result.
you can try this from RD_DD's save 68 at the bottom of this page ... linked below.
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7960&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
I tried it earlier about six times and it worked as it should, but now with further tests ... I'm back to getting that problem again.
save 68 is right on a strategic turn ... so maybe that is the problem. For testing ... I've removed all but the save file I'm using. Having other saves at various stages seems to all blend together with the latest played result, which adds further confusion.
Sometimes the no cohesion BG's have appropriate battle results, and other times with the exact save downloaded again and put in the save folder by itself ... ends up with this same no cohesion BG failing to hold a map under any battle result.
you can try this from RD_DD's save 68 at the bottom of this page ... linked below.
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7960&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
Tried it again starting with save 67, which is at Bayeux, one battle before the strategic turn.
Fought at Bayeux (against AI) and won as Allied commander. Then did the strategic turn ... and moved 506/101 from Pont L'Abbed to Amfreville. First battle after that is at Amfreville against 729/709. Battled hard, and pushed the Allies to a morale break, but the battle still ended with a total Allied victory, even though the battle results showed the Axis side with higher morale. Axis side also had all but three VL's.
There definitely is some varying results which don't seem right.
sorry for the back and forth comments, but it seemed things had gotten straightened out there for a while. Very strange testing session.
I think programmers built in another layer of AI that detects when someone is troubleshooting the game. This activates a program that produces varying results ... so no one will ever be able to figure this out. lol [:)]
Fought at Bayeux (against AI) and won as Allied commander. Then did the strategic turn ... and moved 506/101 from Pont L'Abbed to Amfreville. First battle after that is at Amfreville against 729/709. Battled hard, and pushed the Allies to a morale break, but the battle still ended with a total Allied victory, even though the battle results showed the Axis side with higher morale. Axis side also had all but three VL's.
There definitely is some varying results which don't seem right.
sorry for the back and forth comments, but it seemed things had gotten straightened out there for a while. Very strange testing session.
I think programmers built in another layer of AI that detects when someone is troubleshooting the game. This activates a program that produces varying results ... so no one will ever be able to figure this out. lol [:)]
RE: cohesion drop and total defeat, both without reason ... bug
To summarize and clarify this topic:
Mooxe found a bug while we were playing a Grand Campaign.
Below are some findings from testing.
There seems to be a bug related to "no cohesion" Battle Groups (BG's).
The bug is:
A BG with "no cohesion" is forced to disband, but according to the “Battle Debrief” screen and the battle as observed from both players … it should not have been disbanded. The “Battle Debrief” screen displayed a higher “Force Morale” for the disbanded BG.
For example:
A German BG had a higher percentage of “Force Morale” than the opposing Allied BG, and also had three Victory Locations (VL’s) … but was forced to disband .
This was also tested with just one Allied unit, which was totally destroyed and had only one VL. The battle still resulted in a “Total Allied Victory” and the German BG disbanded.
Other observations:
1)This “no cohesion” BG bug seems to happen randomly. Testing showed logical results, and bugged results from playing the same saved file many times.
2)“No cohesion” BG’s can hold maps and win battles … whether they have been disbanded or not.
3)“No cohesion” BG’s can gain back cohesion, but seems to vary in degree among different BG’s for unknown reasons.
4)Cohesion seems to decrease due to: movement, engaging in battle, disbandment …
5)Cohesion seems to increases by resting a BG, …
6)Cohesion seems to decreases due to reasonable factors, not as I suggested in the title of this topic. I thought a certain BG lost cohesion for no reason, but in fact it was because it had been disbanded earlier… and then returned to the strategic map.
Mooxe found a bug while we were playing a Grand Campaign.
Below are some findings from testing.
There seems to be a bug related to "no cohesion" Battle Groups (BG's).
The bug is:
A BG with "no cohesion" is forced to disband, but according to the “Battle Debrief” screen and the battle as observed from both players … it should not have been disbanded. The “Battle Debrief” screen displayed a higher “Force Morale” for the disbanded BG.
For example:
A German BG had a higher percentage of “Force Morale” than the opposing Allied BG, and also had three Victory Locations (VL’s) … but was forced to disband .
This was also tested with just one Allied unit, which was totally destroyed and had only one VL. The battle still resulted in a “Total Allied Victory” and the German BG disbanded.
Other observations:
1)This “no cohesion” BG bug seems to happen randomly. Testing showed logical results, and bugged results from playing the same saved file many times.
2)“No cohesion” BG’s can hold maps and win battles … whether they have been disbanded or not.
3)“No cohesion” BG’s can gain back cohesion, but seems to vary in degree among different BG’s for unknown reasons.
4)Cohesion seems to decrease due to: movement, engaging in battle, disbandment …
5)Cohesion seems to increases by resting a BG, …
6)Cohesion seems to decreases due to reasonable factors, not as I suggested in the title of this topic. I thought a certain BG lost cohesion for no reason, but in fact it was because it had been disbanded earlier… and then returned to the strategic map.