Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

ORIGINAL: Telumar

5.0 ? Again the usual question: What has been changed?

Mostly the German artillery units, now they have one per division instead of two. The equipment ranges are 5 and 6 hexes, so hopefully it will work out ok that all the 150's, 105' and 75's are in the same unit now. There are so many artillery units in the scenario, maybe this will also ease some pain.

This is indeed a great ease. I am still playing 3.0 and it's a lot of traffic management. The PO is working ok, but still can be easily trapped, which is a PO problem, not your fault certainly.

At turn 10 now. I have chosen the small solution, GD Korps in the centre (actually my southern pincer), Army Group reserves in the north with a Pincer attack to envelope Aachen and use the Meuse as a defence line against the West. The Brits get easily overwhelmed by the might of several Pz and PzG divisions which are wheeling towards Maastricht without an enemy in sight, but resistance is stiffening in the south, especially in the Meuse direction whereas the area around Bastogne is calm, but only thinly held. An advance towards Luxembourg began very promising, but ended with the appeareance of an Arm Div. In the centre i gave too much attention to breaking through around Elsenborn which costed me precious time. I should have directed my main southern thrust further south, slightly north of Bastogne where terrain and enemy disposition have been much more favourable. There several Pz, PzG Divs and HG Pz broke through, but now seem to lack the last punch to get to the Meuse. GD Korps is following behind, ready to enter the ongoing battle against elements of three Armoured Divisions the next turn.

[witp1951]

Thanks, everyone involved for the new scn. At the risk of everybody rolling their eyes, is there an ETA on 3.4? I was holding off picking this game back up until the new patch came out.

[sPzAbt653]

No ETA yet as far as I've heard.

[sPzAbt653]

Going for Antwerp.

[sPzAbt653]

My pitiful schwerpunkt has been scratching and clawing thru Elmers pitiful defenses and by turn 37 I have entered into Antwerp. But just as I thought I was going to win a prize, I was very disappointed to find a Polish Armoured Brigade firmly entrenched there.

[sPzAbt653]

By turn 39 some Canadians had shown up and beaten me back a bit, but I was scratching some reinforcements together and heading them to the area for another try.

[sPzAbt653]

By turn 44 things were looking better and GD Pz Div had arrived to spearhead the second effort.

[sPzAbt653]

Turn 45 brought back the disapointment as my attack ground to a halt and the Poles, Canadians, Brits and Amis attacked me harshly and started making a mess of things.

[sPzAbt653]

With the East Front needing the bulk of my offensive forces, all that was left to do was to fall back. Even against Elmer a retreat like this is a painful nightmare. I fault no one for quiting this scenario before putting up with this part of it.

[sPzAbt653]

This ended up a draw. I'm sure it would have been a victory for me but I kept the 6SS Pz Army, HG Korps and GD Korps in the action for too long, giving the Allies too many victory points. A shame I couldn't get Antwerp and wipe out the British 21st Army Group and US 9th Army.

[parzival]

These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.

Well put Mr. Fulkerson, and I'll add that Autumn Fog gives the German player a 'realistic hypothetical' chance of reaching Antwerp based on a fact. This 'fact' is noted in the scenario briefing:

German Fuel Supply:
Historically, the Germans had massed over 4,600,000 gallons of fuel, more than enough to keep the offensive moving. However, most of it was held in dumps far back near the Rhine river, and there were inadequate arrangements for moving this fuel supply forward. Consequently, many of the German mobile formations experienced critical fuel shortages, some even being immobilised for lengths of time. In the scenario the German player will experience these shortages thru a random drop in movement allowance. Capture of the large Allied fuel dumps at Liege, Spa, Verviers, Butgenbach or Luxembourg will help to alleviate this situation. These fuel dumps can be evacuated from the area by the Allies.

Historically, OKW knew that Allied air superiority would prevent the accumulated fuel dumps being moved forward early on, and the capture of Allied fuel depots was relied upon to keep the panzers rolling in the inital phase. The scenario provides better hints than the Germans had historically as to where the fuel is. KG Peiper had no idea when they turned west from Stavelot and Trois Ponts that a few miles to the north lay 2,000,000 gallons of US 1st Army fuel.

All of this is taken into account in the scenario and reflected in terms of movement points. While the Allies generally have no problem shifting forces around the map, the Germans have greatly reduced movement, and will even experience movement allowances of '1' on some occasions.

[parzival]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.

Well put Mr. Fulkerson, and I'll add that Autumn Fog gives the German player a 'realistic hypothetical' chance of reaching Antwerp based on a fact. This 'fact' is noted in the scenario briefing:

German Fuel Supply:
Historically, the Germans had massed over 4,600,000 gallons of fuel, more than enough to keep the offensive moving. However, most of it was held in dumps far back near the Rhine river, and there were inadequate arrangements for moving this fuel supply forward. Consequently, many of the German mobile formations experienced critical fuel shortages, some even being immobilised for lengths of time. In the scenario the German player will experience these shortages thru a random drop in movement allowance. Capture of the large Allied fuel dumps at Liege, Spa, Verviers, Butgenbach or Luxembourg will help to alleviate this situation. These fuel dumps can be evacuated from the area by the Allies.

Historically, OKW knew that Allied air superiority would prevent the accumulated fuel dumps being moved forward early on, and the capture of Allied fuel depots was relied upon to keep the panzers rolling in the inital phase. The scenario provides better hints than the Germans had historically as to where the fuel is. KG Peiper had no idea when they turned west from Stavelot and Trois Ponts that a few miles to the north lay 2,000,000 gallons of US 1st Army fuel.

All of this is taken into account in the scenario and reflected in terms of movement points. While the Allies generally have no problem shifting forces around the map, the Germans have greatly reduced movement, and will even experience movement allowances of '1' on some occasions.

Well that definetely adds more realism into this scenario.

I do not know how much fuel exactly the Germans had reserved but I remember that I once read the Germans had to base their calculations on captured fuel because they didint have it enough themselves. And this is a bit speculative perhaps? But maybe scenario briefing knows better[:)] Anyway I am rather sure that the result u were able to achieve against Elmer is a bit "unrealistic" but maybe it depends more on AI than fuel.

[sPzAbt653]

I am rather sure that the result u were able to achieve against Elmer is a bit "unrealistic" but maybe it depends more on AI than fuel.

Agreed, but also keep in mind that Autumn Fog has more German units involved than the historical battle. The AI (and my lack of ability to program it more effectly) is definately an issue. I've played the Allies and had no problem reaching the Rhine against the German PO. Looking at my end game file from this recent play against the Allied PO, I see things it could do but isn't, and I'm not at all sure how to get it going. There are many settings to be considered, and some are a mystery. In some cases the PO has units nowhere near where they are told to be, in other cases some units just sit there turn after turn doing nothing.

Again I'll point out that Autumn Fog isn't a recreation of the historical Bulge, it's a 'what if' the Germans had been more serious about the offensive. I've played all the Bulge scenarios and can't come close to Antwerp, so how about this variant for fun? Also, some of the Germans historically had a thought that they could better use the forces involved to 'hit and run' the Allied line wherever they were weakest, bouncing the Pz Div's all over and creating havoc for the overstretched Allies. Interesting.

[larryfulkerson]

So um........Steve: Here I have a situation where one of my units was broken by combat into three little pieces one of which was destroyed and won't reconstitute until turn 53 or something like that. If I disband the other two pieces will the unit reconstitute as the full unit or as three little pieces?

[sPzAbt653]

Hmm ... I don't recall that I ever tried that, but my guess would be no. I wouldn't think they would recombine while in the reconstruction que.

I know the battalion units in the scenario are a pain to deal with (the 28th, 99th and 106th Inf Div's). They have to be that way in order to cover the front on Dec 16th. The 28th Inf actually should be mostly companies, but that would be ridiculous. I've tried to noodle thru a way around it that would work for the PO and a human player, but haven't come to any solution. If its any consolation, historically the 28th and 106th were mostly wiped out. They formed small cadres from survivors that were attached to other units later in the battle. But in the scenario they all reconstitute. So while being a pain, they are a bonus, even if they are mostly worthless.

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So um........Steve: Here I have a situation where one of my units was broken by combat into three little pieces one of which was destroyed and won't reconstitute until turn 53 or something like that. If I disband the other two pieces will the unit reconstitute as the full unit or as three little pieces?

I would assume that the entry dates for each piece will be different

[larryfulkerson]

I had some time on my hands the last couple of days so I started a playtest of Autumn Fog using TOAW to play the German side.

The first 10 AARs are ready to view.  They come in two parts to make download "easier".

Part 1:  http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=9B9DA74A1

Part 2: http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=BBFC954C1

Here's the movesminimovie showing moves from turns 1 throu 10:

[sPzAbt653]

Hey Mr. Fulkerson, it looks like you've got Elmer pretty well bottled up so far!

v6.0 will be included with the upcoming 3.4. No major changes, mostly some more tinkering with artillery assets:

Added the 170's to Army HQ units, removed artillery from Korp HQ's.
Moved the Pz Bde 150 KG's closer to the Our River.
Combined German RR Art into one unit.
Adjusted and relocated some German non-divisional artillery.
PO adjustments to both sides.

It's interesting to see your action against the PO. As I commented in an earlier post, it's really a trial and error thing. The PO can be set to what looks good, but once it goes into action you can see how the program interprets things. Looking at your AAR you can see a bunch of nice German units hanging back from the front in Tactical Reserve. What? They are set to 'Attack' 'Agressively'! I suppose they might be doing this because they are waiting for a crossing to become available, but I'd rather see them up at the river where they could be menacing the Allied player. We'll see what develops.