Sea Dart vs VLOW targets?

[chrispman]

Hi!

I am trying to sink HMS Sheffield with Excocets from two Argentinian Super Etendards. The Sheffield's Sea Dart kill my vlow flying missiles every time. According to third edition Harpoon rules, you cannot engage vlow targets with this missile system.
What gives ?

regards
Chris

[hermanhum]

This is a known game limitation.  SAMs will engage all targets within their lateral range regardless of altitude.  This means that a SA-7b ManPADS missile team (normally limited to low altitude targets in Real Life) will engage MiG-25 Foxbats at Very High altitude as well as U-2s and SR-71s within the game.

[chrispman]

Thanks for info.
It's a bit disappointing, though. Shouldn't be too difficult to implement:

Code: Select all

 if (targetAlt == alt.vLow) {
 toHitProb = 0;
 }
 

?

regards
chris

[hermanhum]

[blockquote]ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp

Shouldn't be too difficult to implement[/blockquote]If only it were that easy. [:D]

Those are famous last words for another group of guys over at Harpoon ANW. They would try to add all manner of new features and end up with a kazillion bugs, instead. [:(]

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This is a known game limitation.  SAMs will engage all targets within their lateral range regardless of altitude.  This means that a SA-7b ManPADS missile team (normally limited to low altitude targets in Real Life) will engage MiG-25 Foxbats at Very High altitude as well as U-2s and SR-71s within the game.

Not quite. SAMs will NOT engage all targets regardless of altitude.
There is a limitation there, but it would have no effect on Sea Dart attacking Exocet.

Example: If you are flying at High altitude, and stray into the air defense envelope of a SAM system that is capable of engaging High altitude targets, it will engage you. If you then drop to Vlow altitude, and the SAM system is not supposed to be able to engage Vlow targets, it will still engage. That is where the limitation lies. If you were at Vlow altitude the whole time, you would be safe from that SAM system.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp

Hi! I am trying to sink HMS Sheffield with Excocets from two Argentinian Super Etendards. The Sheffield's Sea Dart kill my vlow flying missiles every time. According to third edition Harpoon rules, you cannot engage vlow targets with this missile system.
What gives ? regards
Chris

Firstly, please see my post regarding the known limitations of SAM engagements as they relate to altitude. The limitation would not affect your particular situation.

Secondly, I assume you are using the official DB, the HCDB? (I wonder about this, because the HMS Sheffield does not appear there). The Sea Dart Mod 1 in there has an error, as it should not be Vlow capable. The Sea Dart Mod 5, however, is Vlow capable.

I should note that another custom database, the HCDA, better reflects the OOB for the 1982 Falklands war.

One other point: the HCDB and HCDA both use the latest H4.1/High Tide annex data.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp
Shouldn't be too difficult to implement:

Hehe, those are famous last words. Just like telling the AI not to stray within the no escape zone of player AAMs, sounds good right? It was great except the player never had to fire a shot, just drive F-14s around and watch the bad guys flee. I love my F-14s and all but eventually some real opponent would have dared close range.

Maintaining the game is a volunteer effort, always looking for more help so if you want to put those curly braces to use... then take a look at http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showforum=32 (Specifically General and NextGen sections, but the others could get the interest picqued as well).

[chrispman]

Hi Brad,

I am using your HCDA_100208.zip, Sheffield (D80) is equipped with Sead Dart Mod0. The Platform editor says min alt for them is LOW.

Interesting effect, I went VLOW with the Etendards before firing the Exocets, and Sheffield didn't engage them (that worked three times in a row).

Next time I aproached at LOW altitude, and the Sea Dart took out the missiles as usual:

Code: Select all

 29 Mar 20:24:28  2 of 2xAM.39 Exocet Missiles Shot down by 4xSea Dart Mod0 (FPh=64 Ph=40, DPh=35)

what do the numbers mean, hit probabilities ?

And out out of curiosity, in what language is Harpoon written ?

regards
chris

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: CV32

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This is a known game limitation. SAMs will engage all targets within their lateral range regardless of altitude. This means that a SA-7b ManPADS missile team (normally limited to low altitude targets in Real Life) will engage MiG-25 Foxbats at Very High altitude as well as U-2s and SR-71s within the game.

Not quite. SAMs will NOT engage all targets regardless of altitude.
There is a limitation there, but it would have no effect on Sea Dart attacking Exocet.

Example: If you are flying at High altitude, and stray into the air defense envelope of a SAM system that is capable of engaging High altitude targets, it will engage you. If you then drop to Vlow altitude, and the SAM system is not supposed to be able to engage Vlow targets, it will still engage. That is where the limitation lies. If you were at Vlow altitude the whole time, you would be safe from that SAM system.

No, I was quite right the first time around. As you can see from the attached image, the SA-7b (rated for Low Alt) is intercepting a MiG-25 Foxbat at VHigh Alt. You can see in the lower right corner the altitude of the SAM is VHigh. A test file and saved game have been added for independent confirmation. I don't know if it will hit (it always missed for me), but it does fire them.

forceddownload.asp?file=0;1808951

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp

Interesting effect, I went VLOW with the Etendards before firing the Exocets, and Sheffield didn't engage them (that worked three times in a row).

The AI might not be engaging them if it cannot positively identify them as hostile. Just as you see inbound air contacts as Yellow/Unknown identity, the AI sees the same thing and does not cheat. Until it can positively identify you as hostile by your actions, it won't fire. You might not be identified until you fire your Exocet and, by that time, the AI might decide that the ASMs are the greater threat and engage them, instead.

[chrispman]

Hehe, those are famous last words. ....

I was regretting writing that a soon as pressed the submit button.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp

Code: Select all

 29 Mar 20:24:28  2 of 2xAM.39 Exocet Missiles Shot down by 4xSea Dart Mod0 (FPh=64 Ph=40, DPh=35)

what do the numbers mean, hit probabilities ?

And out out of curiosity, in what language is Harpoon written ?

regards
chris

Chris,
The GE and SE are written in C (VS2008 and MSVC++ 1.52 respectively). The PE is maintained in Access 97. The utilities tend to be Delphi or C/C++. I'm rather a Delphi fanatic so I tend to make add-ons and such with Delphi.

DPh is the database value for the SAM's hit percentage.
FPh is the PH after multiple SAMs per target are taken into effect.
Ph is the PH before multiple SAMs per target are taken into effect and after other modifiers are applied.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp
Hi Brad,
I am using your HCDA_100208.zip, Sheffield (D80) is equipped with Sead Dart Mod0. The Platform editor says min alt for them is LOW. Interesting effect, I went VLOW with the Etendards before firing the Exocets, and Sheffield didn't engage them (that worked three times in a row). Next time I aproached at LOW altitude, and the Sea Dart took out the missiles as usual:

Thanks, the extra information is invaluable. What are you seeing is an exception that has to do with crossing targets. Right now, the code is interpreting crossing targets as either (1) targets that have the 'snap up/down' flag (e.g. the terminal diving types), and (2) a second, older (and functionally undesirable) definition that has to do with bearing. Its the latter issue you're running into.

Right now, we're doing a lot of work on refining gunnery arcs and point defense, and it looks like the 'crossing targets' issue will be added to the mix. Thanks for raising it. [:)]

As for an SA-7b engaging Vhigh targets, its the 'crossing targets' issue again. You can loiter the same MiG-25 at Vhigh over that SA-7b all day long, and fail to elicit the same response. [;)]

[Warhorse64]

ORIGINAL: CV32

ORIGINAL: commanderchrisp
Hi Brad,
I am using your HCDA_100208.zip, Sheffield (D80) is equipped with Sead Dart Mod0. The Platform editor says min alt for them is LOW. Interesting effect, I went VLOW with the Etendards before firing the Exocets, and Sheffield didn't engage them (that worked three times in a row). Next time I aproached at LOW altitude, and the Sea Dart took out the missiles as usual:

Thanks, the extra information is invaluable. What are you seeing is an exception that has to do with crossing targets. Right now, the code is interpreting crossing targets as either (1) targets that have the 'snap up/down' flag (e.g. the terminal diving types), and (2) a second, older (and functionally undesirable) definition that has to do with bearing. Its the latter issue you're running into.

So it isn't just a case of the Sea Darts engaging the Exocets when they first launch and are at Low vice VLow, and then following them down?

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64
So it isn't just a case of the Sea Darts engaging the Exocets when they first launch and are at Low vice VLow, and then following them down?

No, honest to goodness bugs galore, just erased one from 1996 and a bigger one from even earlier. Brad is testing latest changes right now. Plus we've gained a little harmony between point defense and area defense in the process [:)]

[TonyE]

New test version of the GE is available that should take care of the game logic portions of the altitude issues and makes some nice strides in point defense as well.

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=9030

[CV32]

Yes, you should find that those Exocets pose quite a threat to Sheffield now. [8D]