Night Intruder Non-Action

[Rusty1961]

I suspect we have a bug with the Allied night-fighters.
The only time my night intruders shoot down or even attack a German Nightfighter is when the nightfighter is landing.

Example from last night's raid:

Allied Electronic Detection of German Fighters:15

Allied Visual Detection of German Fighters:
1
Attacks: ZERO.

Four German planes shot down while landing.

It happens each and every night the same way. The Allied planes do not attack the German nightfighters unless they are landing.

If anyone else has any observations please feel free to add your comments.

[Hard Sarge]

look at all of the reports I have made showing NF's making attacks on each other, and the shoot downs

I even got a 109 getting a kill vs a Mossie

it works fine, it is just not a common thing to happen early in the war

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

look at all of the reports I have made showing NF's making attacks on each other, and the shoot downs

I even got a 109 getting a kill vs a Mossie

it works fine, it is just not a common thing to happen early in the war

??????????????????

I've yet to see it. I've seen German planes make the contact and shoot down, but not the British.

Tell me, what is an expected ratio to contacts to attacks?

Or do you have some secret sauce you use to make them attack? Am I missing something here?

[Nicholas Bell]

Turn 56 (Oct 43) and have flown about 17 major BC raids.  The RAF NFs have shot down 18 LW nightfighters.  3 of the 18 were in the bomber stream - I've lately taken to flying 2 squadrons as "escort" with 6 planes each flying.

More important, I've let the computer handle assigning the rest of the intruder ops - it does just as well as I do.  I just keep pressing the button until there are no more available forces.

I have been replacing the Mossie II's with XIIIs as fast as possible, but have left the Beaufighters alone.  For reasons I do not know, the 605 Sqd flying Beaufighters has 8 of the 18 kills.  One pilot has 2 so far.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Turn 56 (Oct 43) and have flown about 17 major BC raids.  The RAF NFs have shot down 18 LW nightfighters.  3 of the 18 were in the bomber stream - I've lately taken to flying 2 squadrons as "escort" with 6 planes each flying.

More important, I've let the computer handle assigning the rest of the intruder ops - it does just as well as I do.  I just keep pressing the button until there are no more available forces.

I have been replacing the Mossie II's with XIIIs as fast as possible, but have left the Beaufighters alone.  For reasons I do not know, the 605 Sqd flying Beaufighters has 8 of the 18 kills.  One pilot has 2 so far.

Okay, you're finding what I'm finding. Only 3 German planes shot down in bomber stream and I assume the other 15 shot down while attempting to land?

I wonder if your 3 shoot-downs are historically accuate for 17 major raids and 56 turns.

Does anyone have/know the actual Axis loses over France/Germany for August to October of '43?

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell



I have been replacing the Mossie II's with XIIIs as fast as possible, but have left the Beaufighters alone.  For reasons I do not know, the 605 Sqd flying Beaufighters has 8 of the 18 kills.  One pilot has 2 so far.

Same here. My Beaufighters are the best night-fighters. I have one Beaufighter pilot who show down three Me-110s while they were attempting to land in one night!

In this game electronics and speed don't mean crap-it's all about loiter time.

[Hard Sarge]

no, most of it is about timing, being in the right place at the right time

you want to fly the BF, fly the BF, no hassle, that is up to you

I only have HARD data on 100 Group

Dec 43, 1 kill

Jan 44, 4 kills

Feb 44, 4 kills

Mar 44, 6 kills

you got to remember, at night, the idea was more to hassle the enemy, then to shoot them down in droves

(I have one Beaufighter pilot who show down three Me-110s while they were attempting to land in one night!

hmmm, I have Mossies with 5 kills in a night, my best was a Pole who got 6 in two missions on the same night)

[Erkki]

Well it was the first night MY night fighters got their first radar contacts; and those were I/JG300's Ju-88s!

There has been at least one nightfighter vs nightfighter clash so far, a Mosquito attacked a Ju-88 and got shot down by its rear gunner. [:D]

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Well it was the first night MY night fighters got their first radar contacts; and those were I/JG300's Ju-88s!

There has been at least one nightfighter vs nightfighter clash so far, a Mosquito attacked a Ju-88 and got shot down by its rear gunner. [:D]

well, you know what they say ?

but, again, bad things can happen when you attack, hopefully not more then good things, but, they tend to level out

that may not of been his rear gunner, if it was an attack, they went head to head (if a bounce, then yea, think the gunner got him)

and, just in case, not sure if what I am saying is coming across, Night fighter vs Night fighter is/was rare, it happened, but, it wasn't something that happened every night, every mission

and for inturders, don't forget, these guys, also, attacked trains, trucks, anything they seen moving, they flew from point to point, and just looked for stuff, really there main job was to keep people up at night, when they could of been sleeping

[Hard Sarge]

I got to wounder, how are you setting up your night fighters ?

I just ran a first turn of the 43 campaign


I got one pure kill, one damaged, and picked off two landing (which I wasn't using Inturders, but flying as a stream)

(shockingly, I got Snaufer over the channel, and Strieb landing)

[Hard Sarge]

the attack that ended up with a damage

[Hard Sarge]

and my kills

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

no, most of it is about timing, being in the right place at the right time

you want to fly the BF, fly the BF, no hassle, that is up to you

I only have HARD data on 100 Group

Dec 43, 1 kill

Jan 44, 4 kills

Feb 44, 4 kills

Mar 44, 6 kills

you got to remember, at night, the idea was more to hassle the enemy, then to shoot them down in droves

(I have one Beaufighter pilot who show down three Me-110s while they were attempting to land in one night!

hmmm, I have Mossies with 5 kills in a night, my best was a Pole who got 6 in two missions on the same night)

Source: Night Fighters, Luftwaffe and RAF Combat over Europe 1939-1945.

Author: Colin D. Heaton

Naval Institute Press

P 84 relates a story about a Beaufighter piloted by Bob Braham using Serrate in his Beaufighter to shoot down, in one night mind you, three Me-110s on the 17th of August, 1943.

Wiki confirms this story but gives the third 110 to a different Beaufighter pilot.


As it stands, I think the ability to attack the Germans in the game is far below the historical norm.

Also, from the story it appears all of the 110s were bounced as they had no idea the British could find them via Radar-Detectors.

Perhaps if a NI locates a German fighter via Serrate they should be able to bounce them?

[Hard Sarge]

here are the Doc's for it

seems they disagree

(now, my books on the stats of the BF says it had long legs, but some info from the history of 141, says they had to be used from forward fields, as they had short legs, but, since they were used by CC, to raid Norway, and in the Med, HARD to tell, if it was a short range plane or a long range plane)

[Rusty1961]

Sarge,

This document you have produced supports my claim that the victories were more prolific in August of '43 than you state.

Also, the Germans confirm the loss of the three Me-110s that evening.


Also, I don't think the game has the BF equipped with Serrate, while it appears that they should be.


Thank you for posting this!

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I got to wounder, how are you setting up your night fighters ?

I just ran a first turn of the 43 campaign

The NIs flying "Follow" in the bomber stream either at or a 1,000 or 2,000 feet above the stream. They are following at various times-strung out as I would say.

Is this correct? Or is there some other way one must fly them to get kills in the stream?

[Hard Sarge]

Rusty, i said the stats I could find, came from 100 Group, 141 didn't join 100 group until Dec (look on the doc, 141 was with 12 Group at the time)

(in game, I can't switch commands, so 141 starts with 100 Group)

again, on the doc, that is what is claimed at the time, so, who ever claimed 2 Ju 88s and 1 110, and claim one kill, one prob, and one damaged

"Perhaps if a NI locates a German fighter via Serrate they should be able to bounce them?"

Serrate is a homer, radar is a detector, the idea is, either or, lets the pilot know something is there and with in reason, where, once they get a eyeball sighting, then they got a chance to make an attack, either attack or bounced based on what is going on

yea, that sounds about right, but still it is a matter of timing (being in the right place, at the right time)

hassle is, it is a hit or miss, you may be lucky to get 1 kill per week, and then get 5 or 6 in one, followed by nothing for weeks

if you know where the enemy is, Inturders are a better bet, NFs are more a hassle item, then something to wipe out the LW

I think 141 could have the Serrate, they helped test it, but over all, the BF didn't carry it much (alot of the inturders didn't carry homers or radar)

also, there is a chance that a unit will upgrade to the different "sets", it won't show up in the unit page, until most of the planes have it

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Rusty, i said the stats I could find, came from 100 Group, 141 didn't join 100 group until Dec (look on the doc, 141 was with 12 Group at the time)

(in game, I can't switch commands, so 141 starts with 100 Group)

again, on the doc, that is what is claimed at the time, so, who ever claimed 2 Ju 88s and 1 110, and claim one kill, one prob, and one damaged

"Perhaps if a NI locates a German fighter via Serrate they should be able to bounce them?"

Serrate is a homer, radar is a detector, the idea is, either or, lets the pilot know something is there and with in reason, where, once they get a eyeball sighting, then they got a chance to make an attack, either attack or bounced based on what is going on

yea, that sounds about right, but still it is a matter of timing (being in the right place, at the right time)

hassle is, it is a hit or miss, you may be lucky to get 1 kill per week, and then get 5 or 6 in one, followed by nothing for weeks

if you know where the enemy is, Inturders are a better bet, NFs are more a hassle item, then something to wipe out the LW

I think 141 could have the Serrate, they helped test it, but over all, the BF didn't carry it much (alot of the inturders didn't carry homers or radar)

also, there is a chance that a unit will upgrade to the different "sets", it won't show up in the unit page, until most of the planes have it

I'm not following you here. Are you saying that the kills didn't occur on that night of August 16/17 of 1943?

The Germans confirm those three planes dropped on that night.

I'd go with their records as one of the 110 pilots survived and recounted the entire incident to the German airforce.

I doubt he made it up.


We'll leave it at that.

[Hard Sarge]

I am saying that the pilot didn't make 3 claims for kills in his combat report, he claimed a kill, a possable, and damaged

plus it is strange for a pilot to make a claim for 88's when he attacked 110s (the tail and the engines were prime areas they looked for, for ID), not saying the LW didn't lose 3 110s, just that the only claims made that night, were not for 3 kills

RAF kill scoreing/awarding is strange

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I am saying that the pilot didn't make 3 claims for kills in his combat report, he claimed a kill, a possable, and damaged

plus it is strange for a pilot to make a claim for 88's when he attacked 110s (the tail and the engines were prime areas they looked for, for ID), not saying the LW didn't lose 3 110s, just that the only claims made that night, were not for 3 kills

RAF kill scoreing/awarding is strange

Well that wouldn't be the first time in the history of aircombat that more planes were destroyed than claimed.


Also, you asked how I was using my Night Intruders and I responded.

Since you can rack up the kills with your Mossies while the rest of us can't, would you care to give us some pointers?

Like I said, I'm open to the idea that I'm doing something wrong and It's not a bug, but meet me halfway with this.