What I don't have fun with in Distant Worlds

[lancer]

Goodaye,

There is no such thing as a perfect 4x game. Never was. Never will be.

It takes years of work to develop a 4x game. Some still end up with major flaws and limitations (SEV, MOO3). Others end up bland and uninspiring. The odd one manages to end up being decent (GalCiv2). It's rare that one begins being as excellent as DW even with the rough edges.

Why can't there be a perfect 4x game? Well if you take a moment and stick your game designers hat on you soon find out why. There are distinct limitations that you bump up against. Stuff like the maximum amount of RAM that can be addressed in your typical computer at any one time, the graphical chokepoints and importantly the overall processor load.

So what you - as game designer - have to do is to decide where you are going to put the emphasis of your game, optimise that aspect and end up compromising with the rest. Eg. If you are making a 3D shooter you optimise the graphical aspect. If you make a chess program you want to optimise the processor useage.

The kicker is that you can't do it all. No-one can. Because of the aforementioned limitations you are effectively making an either-or choice.

Elliot, who designed and developed Distant Worlds - and I'm guessing here - has chosen to take a middle of the road path on the graphics (good but not outstanding) and instead put a lot of emphasis on how he has optimised the use of RAM and the processor.

Have a think about all the things that are going on in your typical DW game. All the ships, Aliens, monsters, AI decisions, Resource allocations etc. that go into making the 'living world' aspect of the game that has everybody so impressed. It's a hell of a lot.

In order to do this and make it work he has had to throttle back on a number of areas such as research, colony development, spying, ship combat etc. Note that when I say throttle back I don't mean dumb down or neuter but instead design it in a way that's still good but perhaps not as good as other games may have done for that particular aspect.

But think back to those games. Yes they might have had a much more detailed ship combat model or a more involved research system but those games in turn also had to work within the same limitations (ableit earlier generation PC limitations somewhat offset by the higher graphical/UI standards demanded today). They to also had to make compromises. For every feature they did better than DW there would be aspects of their design that they would have had to wind back in order to make the design fit within the same limitations.

So campaigning to have a better this or that in the game is a waste of breath if what you're after is outside the initial design parameters. With the best will in the world it can't be done. Not until we all have vastly more capable plastic boxes sitting on our desks.

There is a lot of scope to change and tweak things that lie within the design parameters. Most of the Master Wish List covers this territory. That's where you can make a difference.

Getting frustrated 'cause DW doesn't do what something as well as some other previous game did is akin to banging your head against a brick wall. Bang away but the brick wall isn't moving, even if it wanted to.

I'll finish this off with a bit of Zen philosophy.

"Make the most of what you've got".

Mr. Zen was a smart son-of-gun.

Cheers,
Lancer

[Joram]

Well thought out Davor but give it a little time. It's definitely rough around the edges but it's still a gem. I hope for many of the same changes you are talking about but I still have fun with it regardless.

[JonathanStrange]

Some of the additions, like the tactical space combat battles, I think were intended more for atmosphere (for lack of a better word) rather than as selling points. If they provide some diversion, that's enough.

Whether the AI can conduct a war - or follow orders once given - now that's the big picture and one worth examining. Is the AI sending out unarmored and incomplete ships? Are its fleets going on suicide runs or in reasonable numbers? For smaller actions against pirates, the AI has been seen to send insufficient forces at times. Does the AI learn or keep getting its lunch money taken?

I do think issue 7 a big deal; one doesn't want micromanage resources but the player is the central figure in his empire and fleets aren't being built, the player's got to instantly know why.

[EisenHammer]

ORIGINAL: Veloxi

I don't think these guys were trying to make a game exactly like MoO1 or 2 or SE4, they're trying to make their own vision. Comparing this game to those games is unfair, I think.

I agree because DW is nothing like MoO or SEIV. DW is a real-time grand strategy game and MoM and SEIV are turn-based grand strategy games.
It's like comparing EU3 to CIV4.

[Rosseau]

I agree with Davor on points 1,2,4,7 and 9. These would not be outside the design parameters of the game.

Would I pay another $25 for a cool tactical battle system and other significant tweaks in an expansion? Of course. This would also allow the Dev to make some more money. So this discussion is a healthy and important one.

[HsojVvad]

Oh I am not complaining about the game. I love this game. I am just saying what I don't find fun in this game. I can understand about when you make a game, the limits about RAM and what not, but still. If I am not having fun, do you think I care about those limitations? That is like me making a 4X space game and since my limitations suck, that you have to play with blips and X's and O's. Many people would be saying the game sucks. I am not saying this game sucks, but what I don't find any fun in. I am hoping some of the stuff can be changed, but I understand if things don't change.

I can make a post in what I love about this game, but that will not help the developers make the game any better. I recomend this game for people and I have been saying on this site for people to be getting the game because it is fun. I am giving my ideas how to make the game more fun.

Nothing wrong in trying to make this game better is it?

[2ndACR]

You can research the tech to colonize other worlds......IIRC, water worlds and marshes is the next "colonize tech" you get......you just have to work thru all the lower stuff to get to that one. Or get really lucky like I did last night and found 2 colony ships......one for water and the other for deserts. 

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111
This is not true. Your maximum research ability represents the maximum amount of resources (people/equipment/etc) that your empire can put into research. This amount scales as your empire population gets bigger and you get wealthier.

It is also always much lower than what you can actually make. Therefore, there are two points in this: Say you have a +100% research bonus (Quamenos + Technocracy). In any other 4X game, handing someone out of the gate a 2x research bonus would be massively overpowering. In DW, it is worthless, and this is why: In the beginning, you produce practically no research. +100% of nada is still nada. The first thing you go and build? A $3000 research base somewhere around the nearest nova, black hole, or neutron star. Now you're generating 300K+ research each, so maybe 1200K+. Too bad softcap is 1000K (and your empire won't have even reached that yet), so you are pretty much set for research FOR LIFE. Your +100% research bonus only contributed to turning it from one overly large value to another overly large value, neither of which you can use. Your net benefit is about a minute of negligible research being boosted while you built that base. From that point on, you will never again benefit from any research bonus AT ALL. It is totally worthless.

[Tanaka]

Did you know you can crash all techs and leave one uncrashed to guide your research? I had no idea this was possible until I read an AAR...

[siRkid]

The problem I have with the research is that there is no personal connection, no excitement. I don't mind if the AI handles it I would just like to be able to get excite that the XXX Torpedo is about to come on-line. For example, in War in the East you don't control production but you really look forward to the day Tiger Tanks come on-line. I just don't get that in this game. Maybe it's because I haven't played enough but when I see that I've developed something in this game I don't fully understand what it does for me. I will say that the more I play the better I like the game. If I did not enjoy it, I would not take the time to comment.

[Flaviusx]

Surprised that so many folks don't like the research minigame. I like it and have already identified several important areas where I make it a point to crash research. (Your first torp tech, and cruiser construction yards are big milestones, among other things. And of course colony module techs.)
 
My biggest complaint is retrofitting and scrapping, this needs serious streamlining. It's a real pain to have to individually hunt down ships on the main galactic screen. But I'm confident we'll see some quality of life improvements down the line for this. My games bog down to a halt trying to keep up my fleet in a large empire somewhere near my latest tech level. It's gotten to the point where I only bother trying to keep my main strike fleets up to date, and even that's a pain.

[HsojVvad]

Can you explain to us how you enjoy the research mini game Flaviusx. Maybe there is something that I am missing.

[Fishman]

I haven't expressed an opinion of whether I like or dislike the research aspect. It's serviceable. It's a means to an end. Well, sort of. In most games, research is something you pay attention to. In DW, research is pretty much something you tend to ignore a lot, because you have very limited ability to influence it and the results are often questionable. Also, the path of research is full of footbullets which the AI seems likely to fall prey to if the ship designs are any indication. Not all the "newest" choices are an automatic gimme. Sometimes they are even flat out downgrades, like the NovaCore special: It's a very good, very efficient reactor. However, conservation of hydrogen doesn't rate all that highly on the list of priorities compared to power and size later on.

[Fulton]

agree with the OP but love the game, I think both can coexist - if we're willing to post about a game its a good sign.

If I could suggest one word it would be SLIDERS.

Sliders to slightly nudge the AI certain directions would give me the feeling of a powerful president or emporer..... Game is VERY close though.

[Gertjan]

I also like the research system as it is now. Please dont make it too much like MOO etc. The game is very original and focuses on macro issues. Keep it that way and improve those macro issues (like fuel and fleet logistics, diplomacy, automation, ship design, etc.).

[deanco2]

Ship design, normally one of the most fun things you can do with these types of games, is what I don't have fun with.  I wanted to make 2 kinds of destroyers with different loadouts.  Making the 2nd type makes the 1st type obsolete, and does not display in the drop down list.  How bout a check box, 'Never make my designs obsolete'.  I won't mind making them obsolete myself later, but I want my designs in the drop down list until I say otherwise.

The design screen could use a bit of color coding, perhaps a light background color to separate the components by type.  If I know that weapons have a red background, I can scan the list for red, easier then trying to make sense of those tiny icons or reading it all.  Plus that would brighten it up a bit, make it more inviting.  Finally, that screen would be better with drag and drop, the buttons are kind of a drag.

I personally need more granularity with the AI help doing designs.  I don't want to upgrade the small, medium, and large freighters to the latest cargo space tech, or install the MX-200 Enhanced Passenger Space in the passenger ships, but I do want to handle the warship aspect.  Here, it's all or nothing.  Perhaps the AI design help could be by ship category?

Unchecking the box 'only display latest designs' then modifying a design, when you come back, the box is checked again, so you don't see the design you modified anymore.  It should remember the setting.

Speaking of remembering the setting, the Ships and Bases screen dropdown starts as defaut, 'show everything'.  The problem is, often times I'll need to make several trips back and forth between that screen and the main map, and it's usually because I'm looking at military units, making fleets, etc.  I have to set it back to 'show military units' each time.  Can it remember the last setting used?  Already that would be a great help.

Still on the Ships and Bases screen, I can Shift and Ctrl-click different ships, then click 'select this ship', but I can't then go to the main map and right click, 'everybody come here'.  There is nothing in the selection screen when I do that.  It seems like it should work like that.  I know you can make a fleet with it and do that, but it's counter intuitive.  Even better would be access to the right click menu directly from the Ships and Bases screen.  I sort my ships by role, find all my Escorts, shift click them, then refit all.  That would be great.