How effective are Air ASW patrols?

[newoldposter]

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

[Nomad]

If you really hit a sub with a bomb, it will damage it. Bigger bombs or multiple hit will easily sink one. But, you will need to train your Bomber/Paatrol aircraft aircrews in ASW for a good while. I think you need to get them up to about 60 - 70 to be really effective. 40 - 60 will get hits, but at the 70+ level, they get lethal. Also coming into play, it seems that higher general experience will give you less FoW about hits.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

my PBEM opponent just recently has asked me this question, sort of... he asked how my subs look like after being hit by bombs all the times (as he constantly gets messages of subs being hit). I told him that not a single bomb from an aircraft on ASW or nav search has so far hit one of my subs. Not one and we´re in 9/42 already. I get messages of my subs being attacked (mostly by Sonias around Singapore) but none has been hit. If they would get hit I wouldn´t use them near Singapore of course. [:D]

My opponent said afterwards that it was obviously not worth training them up to ASW skill 70 and I agree with him, at least not worth it if we´re talking about succesful attacks. Don´t know if it´s also influencing sub spottings, but this perhaps could be done with nav search too.

[newoldposter]

to conflicting opinions, anyone else?

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

NOT VERY... In WITP air ASW would generally discourage subs in the immediate vacinity of air bases to move away or be sunk. In AE they don't even seem to keep them from setting up shop in your ports. It's been badly over-nerfed.

[LoBaron]

As on nearly every other occasion the most effective way to do sub hunting is combined arms warfare.
ASW/nav search to locate or hassle, ASW TF´s to finish them off.
When you get a coordinated system working you give every sub a pretty hard time if it enters the threat area.
 
If you have to rely on air only then, as Nomad pointed out, you need specialized squadrons top get the job done.
I concur that 60 ASW skill is probably a minimum requirement to get them effective. Pilot exp also helps for sure and you should not forget
a high nav search value for better detection chances.

[Nomad]

I tend to use both a unit on ASW and one on Naval Search in conjunction with an ASW TF. As an Allied player I have medium and heavy bomber units dedicated to these tasks only.

[LoBaron]

Nomad, with the obvious brute power of heavies against Japanese CAP, don´t you feel they are wasted in this role?
ASW is no LR task anyway. Wonder whats your opinion in this.

[newoldposter]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

NOT VERY... In WITP air ASW would generally discourage subs in the immediate vacinity of air bases to move away or be sunk. In AE they don't even seem to keep them from setting up shop in your ports. It's been badly over-nerfed.

That is a bit a-historical dont you think? ..considering how powerful ASW air patrols were in the atlantic as well as the pacific.

[John Lansford]

I use some of those small (under 10) B-24 squadrons on ASW duty also, flying from areas like Noumea and Luganville where there's a lot of open water I need to cover.  I'm starting to get Venturas now and use them like that as well.  Pearl has at least half a dozen 4E squadrons flying ASW, especially south and SW of the islands where I keep finding subs.  I agree that airpower alone won't keep subs away; off the WC I use 3-4 ASW TF's in conjunction with lots of planes to keep the approaches to SF and LA clear of subs.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Nomad, with the obvious brute power of heavies against Japanese CAP, don´t you feel they are wasted in this role?
ASW is no LR task anyway. Wonder whats your opinion in this.

Not really. I need to have ASW to keep the subs under control. Heavy bombers have the range and payload to have success against subs. Plus, I am finding it hard in the early going to find places that can support a lot of heavy bombers on offense. Later when the Navy starts getting there 4 engined patrol Liberators I can start looking at changing some of the USAAF heavy bombers back to airfield/port/city bombers. Until then, they scour the seas looking for enemy subs.

Remember that aircraft on ASW have their range cut in half. I use LB-30s and B-17D/Es set for a range of 12 to give me 6 hexes of intense ASW coverage. I then use medium bombers at long range to do Naval Search to about 14 hexes and ASW TFs to chase down subs.

[Q-Ball]

Not very effective. In my game with Cuttlefish, I have given honest feedback on whether bomb hits are real or FoW, as we both want to understand how it works. In every case, a reported bomb hit was FoW. I think Cuttlefish gave up on air ASW, because I haven't seen an attack in awhile. But there were no hits at all.

His surface ASW hasn't been great either, although they have caused damage, a some sinkings.

[witpqs]

I use very little air ASW, but lots of air Naval Search.

If air ASW were hitting lots of subs that would be one thing, but it doesn't. So I look at it as first things first: keep the subs from killing my ships. Subs that are spotted are more likely to be avoided, either by my routing commands or by the TF's and ships themselves. They are also less likely to make successful attacks. Spotted subs can also be targeted more successfully by surface ASW groups.

[minnowguy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ASW is no LR task anyway. Wonder whats your opinion in this.

Not sure I agree with this. Liberators with centimetric radar and Leigh Lights were a HUGE factor in the Atlantic.

Main tactical result was forcing the subs to submerge at night; they had to recharge batteries on the surface in daylight so lookouts would have some chance of detecting attacking aircraft.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: minnowguy

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ASW is no LR task anyway. Wonder whats your opinion in this.

Not sure I agree with this. Liberators with centimetric radar and Leigh Lights were a HUGE factor in the Atlantic.

Main tactical result was forcing the subs to submerge at night; they had to recharge batteries on the surface in daylight so lookouts would have some chance of detecting attacking aircraft.

I've never agreed with the halving of range for ASW missions.

[Marcus_Antonius]

I think you guys are missing the point of air ASW. You are not going to kill subs doing it, but you are going to reduce your shipping losses in the areas blanketed by airborne ASW. Beating subs is not about killing them as much as it is about keeping them submerged so they are less effective hunting. Regular ASW patrols over the sea lanes will do that.

[Athius]

But air search will also do that, and air search has a longer range.

[findmeifyoucan]

I think combined arms is the best. Both Naval search and ASW with Air plus Naval ASW with trained crews.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

my PBEM opponent just recently has asked me this question, sort of... he asked how my subs look like after being hit by bombs all the times (as he constantly gets messages of subs being hit). I told him that not a single bomb from an aircraft on ASW or nav search has so far hit one of my subs. Not one and we´re in 9/42 already. I get messages of my subs being attacked (mostly by Sonias around Singapore) but none has been hit. If they would get hit I wouldn´t use them near Singapore of course. [:D]

My opponent said afterwards that it was obviously not worth training them up to ASW skill 70 and I agree with him, at least not worth it if we´re talking about succesful attacks. Don´t know if it´s also influencing sub spottings, but this perhaps could be done with nav search too.

Well, he has got to be doing something wrong. In my game 9/42 my opponent has probably hit my subs about a dozen times. Most hits are with light bombs and do very little damage. (Still, enough to send them home). One or two hits have done major damage. No sinkings though. One problem is I never get a message that I have been hit. I just check my subs every turn for damage and the occasional damaged one shows up. I am aggressive with my subs but keep them a few hexes from major ports and try to keep them in deeper water when I can. I can tell he has a lot of air units on ASW. Consider the effort he is putting out, the results are what I would expect.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

How effective are ASW patrols and what can I do to maximize them? And when a sub is reported hit...how effective is the damage...what chance is there of me doing some damage?

NOT VERY... In WITP air ASW would generally discourage subs in the immediate vacinity of air bases to move away or be sunk. In AE they don't even seem to keep them from setting up shop in your ports. It's been badly over-nerfed.

I could tell you how to prevent this, but then of course I would have to have your mind erased with one those mind eraser thingys. [;)] Send me a PM.