2 Economic Imbalances. Problems that Needs Fixing. Save the Economy.

[Interesting]

Eventually, two things happen that destroy the economic aspect of the game.

"How do you mean destroy?"
By destroy I mean, remove the economic aspect of the game, making it pointless.


1. The Offer for resources is too excessive.

Too fast, the Gallactic offer for 90% of the resources is so huge, that all items tend to cost 0.5.
But saying they cost 0.5 is not the truth. Since everyone and their mothers have huge stockpiles of all (by all, read 90%) resources, noone needs them, noone buys them, so even though they have a minimum price of 0.5, in reality they never get sold. They just accumulate on the Space Ports Cargos.

Only a few very rare luxury items are worth more anything, and off course, the extremely rare luxury resources are worth in gameplay effect (add 50% development instead of 10% like other luxuries) so much that it doesnt matter, because you dont want to trade them anyway with other alien races.



How did this happen? Too many miners collecting resources too fast.

How is that a problem to the economy that we should care about? Building a mine ends up not being an investment and most mineable places are better of let alone, in other words, whatever resource you get is worthless because noone needs it, you and whole galaxy already have stockpiles of that resource.
You waste credits in maintenance to keep mining and gain none value back as resources (because everyone already have to much and noone needs enough of it).

We (the player and the AI races) accumulate resources too fast.

I like the idea of setting up a mine everywhere and still benefiting from it more than the maintenance cost.
I understand that players are expected to prioritize resources when building up mines.

In my current game 15 years after start (but I dont know when it started, I just noticed it now)
100% of resources GALAXY STOCK is superior than GALAXY DEMAND.
How superior?

I will post screenshots so you guys can get an idea of how the abudant resources render any "demand" useless.
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2811/r ... soffer.jpg




Note the white icon for the Korabbian Spice. It is a extremelly rare luxury resource that increases colonies that have access to it in 50% development. Look at the Galaxy Stock for it! 25.9K and Galaxy Demand 0.5K. Is this a joke? One of the three most rare itens in the Galaxy has 50 times the Stock to Demand rate.

Look at all the Galaxy Stock vs Galaxy Demand. The Stocks outweight the demand by OVER 9000. Its like there is no Demand compared to its Offer.

Look at Your Stock (my empire stock) vs Your Demand (my empire demand). I dont need anything that I already dont have. Zentablia Fluid is one of the three extremely rare luxuries and in my game I have just found it (in less than a year) and I already have three times my demand.

Now look at the Price for all the resources. All the "Strategic" resources prices are 0.5. This means they are worth nothing, because 0.5 is the minimum price, the price of nothing. They dont even pay for the maintenance of the mining bases on them, because they are so abundant.

The Luxury resources prices themselfs are very low as well.
11 Luxury resources have prices ranging from 0.5 to 4
7 Luxury resources prices range from 4.1 to 7.
4 Luxury resources have prices at 64, 100, 100, 332,3.

No, its not that the world is so pacific, everyone is happy happy. No, each empire is at war with atleast 3 or 4 other races, and this for a long while now.
What I suggest? Reduce the gathering of resources rate.

To something credible. Galaxy Stock being over a dozen times the Galaxy Demand is not right.

I think that way to fix it is reducing the rate at wich resources are extracted, slow it down to a point where the resources are generated as slow as they are consumed. Right now we need a huge tweak. Something like slow resources gathering rate. Make we gather just 10% of what we are currently gathering. And even then, I still certain the Galaxy Stock will still be many times the Galaxy Demand, but atleast we will have different numbers, meaningfull numbers so the fact that some colonies have more mining stations will actually matter, and there will be money to be made by trading, and maybe mining bases will be worth investing again like they should.


Im not to sure of what Im talking here. Im not very good at this. This is what I spotted and I think its wrong and needs tweaking. But I really would appreciate other players input and experiences on this.


Ok, now the second problem economic problem.

Since Ive spoke to much already, I let this second problem for you guys to discuss, start by looking at the screenshot:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1814/economy.jpg

Its about how imbalanced your sources of income are and how your investment in mining stations/gas stations and acquirement of resources is worthless and how trade is worthless.

I can resume the economy in two things: Colonial Planets plus Luxury resources = win. Ignore all the other economic aspects.

edit: how do I edit the image so they appear on the message?

[Erik Rutins]

A few points on this...

First, yes, now that the economy is working well it will definitely need more tweaking to bring it back into balance. Right now it can be a bit too easy to make money. We're already planning to make some tweaks in resource pricing and the first tweak (increased corruption for large empires) is in the 1.0.3 public beta.

ORIGINAL: Interesting
In my current game 15 years after start (but I dont know when it started, I just noticed it now)
100% of resources GALAXY STOCK is superior than GALAXY DEMAND.
How superior?

Make sure you understand what the Demand on the Expansion Planner screen means. It means "unfulfilled Demand" not total demand. In other words, what's "on order" and not yet received where needed. We plan to add a measure of total fulfilled Demand as well in the future. With that said, as noted above we are planning to make some tweaks here now that the economy is really rolling.

Look at Your Stock (my empire stock) vs Your Demand (my empire demand). I dont need anything that I already dont have. Zentablia Fluid is one of the three extremely rare luxuries and in my game I have just found it (in less than a year) and I already have three times my demand.

As noted above, that's not exactly what this means. It means you have an efficient distribution system that is leaving very little demand unfulfilled at any given time. Still, if you are meeting demand and still have stocks, it means you're producing enough.

Thanks for the suggested tweaks - there are a number of ways to address this, but we will be addressing it. I think economic balance, fixing remaining non-critical issues and some additional interface tweaks will be priorities for the next update.

Its about how imbalanced your sources of income are and how your investment in mining stations/gas stations and acquirement of resources is worthless and how trade is worthless.
I can resume the economy in two things: Colonial Planets plus Luxury resources = win. Ignore all the other economic aspects.

This is also not really a correct picture. The only reason you are getting so much revenue from your colonies is because their development is likely quite high. The resources that are keeping their development high are coming from your mining stations and from free trade. Free trade has a direct revenue which we can measure, but it also has an indirect effect by keeping your colonies happy with more access to the luxury resources they want.

[Wicky]

Well, I saw in your screenshots a peaceful galaxy where nobody ever goes to war. You have 0 troops to maintain and laughable 19 destroyers to defend your 31 colonies/several hundred freighters.

I'm too tired to discuss this tonight, about to go to sleep, but have you tried playing in a custom galaxy where every race is set to extremely aggressive?

[Erik Rutins]

It's also worth noting that he has the "Way of the Ancients" as his government type, which is a uniquely effective money-maker.

[Interesting]

Just to clarify my main post.

The colonies development is quite high, not because "trade or mining" in general.
The "mining and trade" that cause that effect are only untill I fulfill the luxury demands by little ammounts (way less than I produce).

My point was that: a lot of mining and trade, in fact, most of it, is not needed, thats why I said worthless, because after that little "luxury" demand to develop colonies, the only thing I need is low taxes and time, and they will flourish.
In other words, I could get by, by just having selected luxury resource mines that I already dont have and even then I would have more than enough for myself and my colonies, enough to trade, if only the other AI races wouldnt have easy and abundant access to them too.

I understand that "demand" means "unfulfilled demand". Ive read it in another topic. What I was talking about is that the discrepancy in the numbers being too big and you are lecturing me on what the names mean dont change the effects I mentioned: self suficiency for everyone, mines not providing benefits after a certain point (very easily to achieve, just those 10 luxuries),

Off course I get benefits for having atleast one strategic resource of each, but even if I didnt had, I could trade for the resources I need, right? But then again, since all strategic resources are so abundant, their price is 0.5, so they would be very cheap anyway. And If I do have one strategic resource of each, this seem to be more than enough to supply my needs and cause a ridiculous surplus (for that I refered to My Stock), but what is the advantage of having that surplus if everybody else also have that surplus and noone really needs anything?

edit: I acquired the way of the ancients not long ago.

My main resource generators are just 4 Colonial Planets with full population and almost max development and taxes near 50% and 3 other Ocean planets with near maximum population and average taxes. The other twenty or so colonies are with 0% taxes, so Imagine when they develop and I start taxing them... The development, plus recreation and medical bonuses from starport, plus reputation outweights the ridiculous tax output, but that is ok, Im paying for the maintenance of those recreation and medical bonuses and Im nourishing my reputation with each pirate base/alien I clean and prevent doing bad deeds.

About the wars. Every race is at war with atleast 3 or 4 other empire at -40 war weariness, for years now and the galaxy stock still feels like "infinite". Im not at war currently, but even if I was, reducing the taxes, but still get 40-50% of my current budget (think something like 40 reputation bonus from development, 32 from recreational and development facilities, some more from empire reputation, less the 40 or so from war weariness, I would still have enough reputation left to tax for 40-50% of what I currently taxing)

I would still be able to pay for the maintenance of 150-250 (5k maintenance) capital ships each period. The second strongest nation dont have 10 capital ships and their capital ships are 30-50% inferior than mines. Without counting the 3 Billion credits sitting. What Im saying is that regardless of "agression level", "war weariness", my "government type" and so on. the economy is so broken that one have a hundred times what one needs.

What is needed: a 3 or more colonial planets and mines embracing 10 luxury types, then eventually the economy breaks itself.

[Wade1000]

In this next update add the word "Unfulfilled" to the list title.
Look for other similiar places simple edits could be made to lessen confusion.

I have stated in several posts now how less confusion leads to more fun. Fun is key to successful entertainment.

[Ranbir]

Hi Erik, I think a wider more detailed economic management window would be a great addition. Just to explicitly lay out what is going where and by how much etc. Be nice for the stat-junkies.

[thiosk]

I cannot comment too deeply, as I have only last night gotten my first functioning economy (in a small galaxy, 4 competitors, peaceful settings).

It felt to me that base metal consumption was too low. I was never, ever stressed to produce enough steel or carbon fiber. This makes sense, as they are common, but they are also used in every component produced on the surface of planets and on spacecraft.

Worlds should be eating steel like candy as their population increases and their development level goes up. Yeah, its common, and theres plenty around, but does anyone actually have to build mines on asteroids? ever?

As is, the model seems to make Luxuries #1 most important, along with a couple gas mines at big diverse gas giants. Mining for base resources is an afterthought, which seems strange.

When I am Earth's supreme emperor, we go to space and focus first on energy production, then metal production, then manufacturing, and THEN we bring back the fun bits for luxury goods. DW seems to focus on Luxuries THEN manufacturing THEN metal production.

[idgar]

Currently there's only supply/demand shown and I'm really missing the production/consumption(fulfilled demand) part.

[Sarissofoi]

Also thing about economy system right now. This consist only resource. I find this lacking. Why? There are any goods in this system. High developed worlds should produce advance goods. Mining bases and low developed colonies should supply advanced worlds with resources for suplies and goods.
For me this should look something like this.

Your income come from two main source:
A)population tax(based on population and wnew 'wealth' rating of colony- this rating mean how wealthy colony population is, poor poeple dont pay much taxes when rich folks pay more and you can get more % from them before they start protest)
B1)trade tax(this is tax from goods and resources, population consume goods and food and you can tax consumpsion but this can lead to poverty or rebellion)
B2)customs(when you additionaly tax some goods or res when traded with other empire on independed worlds- you can do this to get additional income or to discurage or to encurage trade with other empires

Colony rating
A)development(aka industry)- this mean how high your industry is developed, high rating mean larger resources extarction but also better production capabilities(can produce more and better goods, machinery, luxury, supplies)
B)wealth- how wealth your colony is, this affect how good living condition is here, population satisfatcion, how high taxes are allowed(and how much you get from it), also what goods types are needed for grown and what luxury is wanted
C)atraction- this mean how atractive is colony for your population, high atractive colony give bonus to happines, atract tourists and immigrations; high taxes, harsh climate, hostile world, non selfsustained(mean constant fear for lack of supplies), sortage of goods or luxury lower atraction rating when nice places, many resources, nice climate, low taxes, cheap food, high development rating and wealth, constant supply of luxury and goods, goverment donations make it higher. But some worlds always will be less atractive tan others.

Types of resources, goods etc:
A)basic resources- these resources are very common and you can find them almost everywhere, the only problem with them you can have is that you can mine not enough them, they are used for supplies, basic and normal goods,basic luxury goods, basic machinery, space ships and base components, most development worlds need import these resources
B)strategic recources-these resources are difrent than basic, you need them to make advanced goods, normal luxury goods, normal and advanced machinery and for more hightech components. These resources are needed for your empire and lack of these can be disatrous.
C)luxury resources- these resources are not needed but wanted, you can live without them but they have important functions, colony with supply of this is happier also you can tax this type of resources more before people start complaing, most of this resources are used raw, some can be used to manufacture advanced luxury goods
D)goods- these things are essential for grown of your colonies, these goods are produced in colonies on enough development raiting(basic goods-low development, normal-medium, advanced-high), population consume this goods, if colonies have enough of them 'Wealth" of colony increase. Poor colonies dont want advanced goods(becouse they cant afford them) they need basic goods to grow. Heavy tax on goods slow this proces and can hurt your empire in long run. If colonies dont have enough goods their lost their wealth also high taxes can also do this.
E)machinery- these things are essential for grown of your colonies, these goods are produced in colonies on enough development raiting(basic machnery-low development, normal-medium, advanced-high), their are needed to increse and sustaind 'development'(or industry) rating of your colonies,if you cant produce enough advanced machinery you can increse these rating by goverment donations but it will cost you, 'development' rating affect minig ratings for colony(higher 'dev' rating - more mining)
F)luxury goods- prduced from varius resources on worlds with enough 'development' rating, these goods increse happines of your colonies also they are good source of income, basic luxury goods are cheap, can be produced on medium developed colony and are needed on all colony types, normal luxury goods can be produced on medium or higher developed colony and are wanted on wealth or very rich colonies, advanced luxury goods can be producedon high development colonies and are wanted on rich colonies.
G)supplies-these special goods are needed by space station to keep working and for starting colonies and for colony in hostile enviroments, without them station or colonies will die, can be manufactured on colonies but space station are need them from outside, these mean that starting colonies need to be supply for some time and without support from homeplanet colonization attempts have high chance to fail.
H)food- important resources for your colonies, food can be grown on many places, even on hostile worlds but in hostile enviroment there is need for supplies for this, food can be imported and that mean that your core worlds can grown more than local food production can feed, but there is something else- food price(cost of food production) vary from place to place, it is cheap to produce food on some worlds than others, also there is amount of food what can be produced cheap, if production rise over this amount cost prouction rise to, that mean high populated world can produce high amount of food but on high price when low poulated worlds can produce less food but cheap and with very low local needs most of the food can be exported(this same situation aply for other resources too)

*C-special luxury resources are possible
*D,E,F-special goods or machinery with additional traits are possible(they can be resarched on special(not always avialable) project or these project can be discovered in some special places), example for luxury goods:Video games(look at Japan), these special can be monopolisied but other empires can discover this too(by espionage, resarch or other)

Mine bases:
need: supplies(for crew and machines)
can produce(or rather mine):strategic resources, basic resources, luxury resources, food
*Yeah mining bases give your empire all needed resources: food for your population(grown on ocean moon or planets), basic resources for goods(needed by your population), strategic resources(for ships, and advanced goods), luxury resources for population and profit(liked by population with cash thats mean rich worlds also used for luxury goods).
Low development worlds:
need: basic goods(aka first need goods for population), food(for population), supplies(for population if condition are harsh) machines(for development)
want:basic luxury goods, cheap luxury resources, machinery(for grown)
can produce:food, all resources
*Think of low development world as mine or agricultur colony. People dont realy want to go here(especially if condition are harsh). Of course when climat is nice, taxes are low, there is plenty resources to mine and there isnt shortage in goods many people will go here to look for better chances but when climat is harsh(for examples ice planet), taxes are high, there is no resources to mine and colony is short on goods and dont develop not many people(if any) like to go and live here.
These colonies are important things for empire because they give needed resources for your developed worlds. Mainatning colony is cheaper than maintaing space station and they can be more effective. This colony isnt self-sustained and need transports from outside to grow(goods,machines) or exist(supplies on less hapitable planet, food when local production is to low).
Self-sustained colony:
need: they arent self-sustained for nothing
want:luxury goods and luxury resources, variety of machinery and goods(if not produce or not produce enough), basic resources and strategic resources(if they dont mine enough), food(if they dont produce enough)
can produce:supplies(for export and for own needs), food, variety of goods, variety of resources
*Self-sustained colony is self-sustained. It can produce anything that need. But also want many tings to continue to grown. This colony can be low developed(like agrocolony)or high developed. Low developed colony will want goods and machines to advance, high developed colony will want more resources and luxury goods. This colony will not die when blocaded or cut from support but can be damaged if something cut trade lines.
Developed colony:
Need: advanced machinery(for development), basic and normal goods(for status quo), food
Want: advanced goods, luxury resources and goods
Can produce: variety of resources, food, basic and normal goods, basic luxury goods
This colony is growing. It not only supply your empire with resources but also can produce goods and supplies for own needs or for export. To continue to grown this colony need more advanced machinery and goods, also hunger for resources and food is bigger. Population is rather wealthy and want better life. Their spend more money at luxury goods and resources.
High developed colony(aka core worlds)
Need:food(if population is big), basic resources(if local production is to low to cover production of goods for local market)
Want: variety of resources, variety of goods, variety of luxury goods and resources
Can produce:all goods and machinery, supplies
This is your high developed colony. They produce high technology and advanced goods but consume resources, luxury and food. Local population can be bigger than local food production. This type colony is less possible to exist on hostile world because of constant need of supllies for colonies in harsh climate.


In this situation population will consume supply, food, goods and luxury(and that mean cunsume resources) to survive and to increse wealth or industry leve. Thats mean constant need of resources and constant flow resources and goods beetwen mines and colonies.

[Joram]

ORIGINAL: Interesting


I understand that "demand" means "unfulfilled demand". Ive read it in another topic. What I was talking about is that the discrepancy in the numbers being too big and you are lecturing me on what the names mean dont change the effects I mentioned: self suficiency for everyone, mines not providing benefits after a certain point (very easily to achieve, just those 10 luxuries),

That's pretty rude, he's 'lecturing' you because you obviously don't understand what unfulfilled demand is. The only question I have is if it is empire wide or the sum of the planets individual demand. If the former, and if demand = 0 then of course stocks will rise, if greater than 0, then stocks will fall. If it's the latter, it's pretty much the same thing though you might still see demand > 0 and stocks rising because of imperfections in the distribution system (like pirates killing your freighters!). So harping about demand to stock ratio's is meaningless.

[theonlystd]

I do agree resources to plentiful tho i've had demand for Casion and Hydrogen higher than galaxy stock many a time.. But for most other strategtic resources never an issue..

[Interesting]

Ive started a new game in the most difficult settings.

The one where there are plenty of pirates, space creatures, chaotic, old galaxy, the player starts with almost nothing, etc.


The beggining depends on luck, if the player dont manage to colonize 3 or so Colonial planets, he cant do anything. But! If he does get those 3 colonies, then:

1. he can get enough resources to defend them, since the AI is.. well, the AI.
2. he can get his way with Diplomacy. Once the player understand the basics of "trade a lot and the relationship will increase" and advanced techniques "how much % can I get from each race? Oh, the teekans give me 178.5% nice, I will milk them".

Im not even mentioning the, Give them 10.000 and get back 17850. This, like the freighters with weapons being considered military are stupid bugs and will have to get fixed, no discussion.

[Joubarbe]

After two hours of playing, I have +18000 cash and, I don't know why, my economy is very imbalanced. Sometimes, it goes to 10k and the next second, goes down to -9000 (my flow is always the same).
(sorry, it's a noobish question, but this is very strange to me)

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: Joubarbe

After two hours of playing, I have +18000 cash and, I don't know why, my economy is very imbalanced. Sometimes, it goes to 10k and the next second, goes down to -9000 (my flow is always the same).
(sorry, it's a noobish question, but this is very strange to me)

Do you have any automation on which spends money? If so, this could be the reason. Like if the automation is hiring spies, that can get expensive.

[Joubarbe]

Only my construction ships are "automated", but they can't spend any money if I am in a negative flow, can they ?
Ressources trade is maybe the reason ?

[Joubarbe]

Nop, sorry I still don't understand why I was at +15000 and suddenly : -19000.

[Roghain]

I find this vexing too. 73 colonies in 62 systems. I can see my income vary from as low as - 50k to +450k (no typo - plus 450000) and I really fail to see how this happens/what causes the change. I don't automate anything except colony taxrate and exploration.

The cash reserves I have are also stupendous - I got more ships than I need (150+ escorts and 150+ frigates to patrol the shipping lanes on auto, then ten fleets of 15 destroyers, 10m cruisers and 5 capoytal ships each - fleets not automated, just awaiting something to blow to astrodust) and my bankaccount is close to 15 billion.

I dunno - it seems to be too easy to get rich fast.

[Lorini]

One thing about the economy, it would certainly be nice if the numbers were shown as currency: instead of 450000 I could see $450,000. Much faster to read.

[BigWolfChris]

Money is nothing really

Currently - My reserves are 60,660,145 with an income of +1,840,207
My colony income alone is 4.7M credits
And this is with recently switching to democracy while having a military force of over 1500 ships and 150 bases plus 3200+ troops (this isn't including private sector)
Money is too easy to make once you settle, and strategic resources are way too abundant

I could double my fleet and still not experience any problems
I've now wiped out all other empires... just because I wanted my large fleet actually doing something

Personally, I think the issue is simply resources being to much, make them harder to have large stocks of (or more expensive even), I think it would be more challenging without making it too hard