"We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

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Fishman
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: D.W.O.H A private ship imo should be able to have minimal ( 2 or less laser weapons ) to protect itself from scirmish attacks from pirates on its own ,OR the private sector should up me more money for basically what boils down to pirate protection fees.
No, that would be silly. How are two laser cannons going to stop anything? I put at least 5-10 missile launchers on them. How else are they going to defend themselves from giant kaltors and hostile cruisers? Obviously, everyone should be armed to the teeth and the right to do so be enshrined in the national constitution. Anything else is simply infeasible.
ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

Gee, if I were an interstellar "nation", I'd sure as heck would not want armed alien freighters roaming about my systems.
I would be perfectly happy for them NOT to go there, myself, but we don't really get to tell them where to go, and they seem intent on going there even if trade sanctions are imposed or war breaks out. Plus, it's amusing how every race in the galaxy now has a "Nasty" reputation because they repeatedly fire on my freighters, only to get destroyed by them.
Joram
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Joram »

ORIGINAL: Interesting

As I said, any "possibly unintended side effects" aside have nothing to do with the fact Im getting annoying messages by many factions at all times because my freighters have 1 beam weapon.

Look, Im not discussing it. This is going to have to get fixed.

The whole STATE vs PRIVATE distinction is prone to a hundred "exploits". 

Im talking about going from 0 reputation to -34 in a matter of minutes with any faction just because my freigher has 1 beam weapon, really?! Also, the messages are identical for all factions. Its like the factions dont have any personality taken into account! How do they know my freighters have 1 beam weapon? And if they have cargo scanner, why would they be so touchy about it to the point of DECLARING A WAR OVER IT.

"Oh, I can see your freighter came to refuel at our Colony, but it has a weapon, therefore this is BAD, you are trying to conquer us with your 1 beam freighter military ship in deep cover" Uh hu.

How is it possible that in the year 2760, all races, are so stupid and have prejudices against freighters with 1 beam weapon?

Knowing there are pirates and giant interspacial worms out there, how did all these races developed to a point where they wouldnt be smart enough to add weapons to their freighters? Really?



If its a "gameplay" thing, then FIX THE 15 IDENTICAL ANNOYING MESSAGES EVERY 2 MINUTES. Tell you about break of immersion. I try hard to get into the game lore and setting, I read races description, I download their concept art screenshot, I try to imagine how they are like and how they behave and YET ALL THOSE RACES ARE SO STUPID THEY WANT TO GO AT WAR WITH ME BECAUSE MY FREIGHTER WITH 1 BEAM IS IN THEIR SYSTEM?

This is a bug. I can understand that the developer must have used an unfortunate trigger to get that desired effect (a military fleet aproaches and prepares for war, oh, great! the game AI aknowledges that, but from that to a freighter with self protection weapons?! In what galaxy are we living?)

I can talk about this all day long.

There is a simple fix:  Just make the AI to check if the race present in their system is PRIVATE or STATE. If It is STATE, then it acts normal. If its PRIVATE, then it ignores them.


I played a game with multiple races and after many in game years players will have so many freighters, that players will end up getting these annoying messages all the time, its completelly annoying, unrealistic and causes a really bad effect on game mechanics, because it reduces reputation unjustifiedly.

I also dont accept being "forced" to use escorts, instead of using my freedom of design on Private ships. I like to play full manual, and if I cant add weapons to Private ships (because the other races are stupid about it), then their protection would require my manual attention as well, baby sitting them, and I refuse to babysit a hundred freighters manually.
Dude, what are you, 12? I've never seen such whining before. If you disagree with the design philosophy, that's fine, that's your right. But to throw a temper tantrum ...

The easy solution is simply not to put a weapon on a freighter. The alternative solution that would require some developer input would be to have to have a treaty with the empire your trading with to allow armed freighters just like in the real world.
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D.W.O.H
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by D.W.O.H »

could implement a simple civ4 negotiation of Open Borders

Democratic Worlds Of Humanity.
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Malevolence
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Malevolence »

I actually think it could go either way. Based on this design, I can understand this use of "innocent passage".

I do have two problems, however, with the WAD... the assigned escorts that create these diplomatic incidents and the fact that empires immediately destroy civilian ships at the start hostilities.

Given the design goal of unarmed merchants, the AI should have been designed to have escorts wait outside the territory of the other empire until the merchant completes its mission -- the escorts should then rejoin their sheep. Also, the AI (or via player command) should also be capable of ordering merchant vessels to leave another empire's territory and restrict travel to their territory. This is particularly important as diplomacy begins to fail and the relationship quickly falls to hostility and war.

Based on my limited play thus far, that's what I see.



Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
aVoided
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by aVoided »

I agree with a lot said here on both sides.

What it boils down to imo is lack of control of the private sector (If I rule the empire should I not be alowed to issue edicts regarding the private sector) I'm not saying give us full private sector control... that takes AWAY from the game if you ask me. There is a lot of future potential for expansion with this State / Private system. I think it is a very unique style and should not be degraded in the least !

I think THE BEST (just my lowly opinion) way to solve this is have weapons restrictions on ALL private sector ship designs. Say small freighters 2 weapons, medium 3, large 4. Just as an example. This way even in war your private sector does have minimal defense but not the ability to defend your empire in the least. You could say its a Galactic Nations Edict or something. To think in the 28th century in deep space that any ship would be 100% unarmed is just stupid (to be blunt). No less a freighter carrying millions of credits worth of X resource or components.

Long post short : Limited weapons on private sector designs that all empires would be mutaly agreed to (from the devs ultimate decision and view point regarding balance and available tech in the late game) and the ability to edict *no fly zones / empires* (Anyone who disagrees with limited weapons in the private sector is basicly out to exploit or abuse the style and can go download a mod I'm sure someone would make that would break the system anyway)

I definatly agree though this needs to be addressed. One way or the other...

Edit : I will be the first to admit that I have weapons on my freighters in my current game. 6 Beams on large 5 on Medium and 4 on Small freighters. I'll just say that my freighters solo space monsters when set to stand off (stay at max weapons range with stronger opponents) ... it is a bit game breaking to a point.. Maybe space monsters need a buff [:D]

Edit x2 : also if any never noticed in the game options there is the option to not colonize or build mining in another empire claimed system. Maybe an option could be added here to restrict freighters from neutral / warring empires. Naturaly that would not include empires with trade agreements. Obviously once cancelled would be considered nuetral and all freighters would get out of thier systems.
sbach2o
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by sbach2o »

I never tried to put weapons on my freighters, so this may be a stupid question:

Does the designer warn about that? If not it should probably do just that. Maybe weapons on freighters could be forbidden outright, but that would be too restricting.

Having diplomatic repercussions from sending armed ships, including merchants, to other empires' colonies is perfectly okay with me.
ORIGINAL: Interesting

The AI is bugged into thinking a freighter with a beam weapon is a military ship when its not and therefore keeps giving me these messages. One for each race. All the time. Why? Because my freighters trade with those nations all the time.
In my view the bug isn't in the AI, it is a design-flaw in the ship designer, if it lets you construct such ships without a clear warning. But (if no such warning exists) there is a very real issue here.
ORINGINAL: Malevolence

Given the design goal of unarmed merchants, the AI should have been designed to have escorts wait outside the territory of the other empire until the merchant completes its mission -- the escorts should then rejoin their sheep. Also, the AI (or via player command) should also be capable of ordering merchant vessels to leave another empire's territory and restrict travel to their territory. This is particularly important as diplomacy begins to fail and the relationship quickly falls to hostility and war.
Agreed about the need for special handling of escorts around other empires' colonies.

I don't think the player needs any ability to issue direct commands to the merchant fleet. Any outbreak of war should, without player interaction, lead to an immediate withdrawal of all civil crafts from enemy controlled systems. This should go without saying. Maybe what we are seeing in war with all these merchants getting attacked around enemy spaceports is that the AI just reacts slowly, as in 'the poor captains of those ships weren't informed and are just trying to carry out their orders'?

Bad pre-war relations could and probably should automatically reflect on the trade relations. Maybe the set of available relational states (defense pact, free trade, ..., blockade) is a bit thin at the moment and should be expanded to include something that warns about conducting trade but doesn't forbid it? (note: I haven't played with this much yet, apart from trying to get free trade arrangements). There should be a trade-off between different options (in some way there already is): Under bad relations, the existence of trade relations may be that what is keeping the factions from war. If a boycot is imposed, that will send the relationship further down the drain. Note, how trade actually factors into how the empires think about each other currently, although it has relatively small weight.
aVoided
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by aVoided »

if they wont put a (reasonable) restriction on weapons or the likes on the private sector (which I think they should but within reason, as I stated before 100% undefended ships in deep space is just silly. Seriously should a full blown fleet or even a station be scared of a laser or 2 from a freighter? ) It's not like our private sectors are co-ordinated to become a fighting force. It would only be sheer luck to have a bunch of them in one place at the right time and even they wouldn't make a real war effort difference (unless as mentioned above said player has 20 lasers and 20 torps loaded on a freighter in which case thier private sector will bankrupt anyway much less even get to that point

With that said NO private sector ship should EVER enter another empire unless I have free trade or a defenseive pact with them PERIOD ! With or without weapons ! Should that pact end said private ships should vacate those systems immediatly. There is also absolutly no reason other empires (or mine) should be refueling outside thier own empire as well unless free trade or defense pact is in place. If you don't have free trade with an empire anyway what the heck are privates doing out there anyway is my question...
Fishman
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Fishman »

I don't think ANY restriction on the number of weapons a private ship is allowed to have would be "reasonable", simply because there are only two levels of armament that matter: None at all, and to-the-teeth. However, the AI's reaction to this at present is clearly a bug: It addresses those ships as "military", which they are not, and asks you to remove them, without offering you any means of agreeing, so even if you wanted to agree to such a thing, there is no button you can click to accept it.

Of course, the question then becomes, "Why are those ships there in the FIRST place, given the lack of a trade agreement?". If trade appears to occur regardless of whether you have agreed to trade, or even if there is a WAR on, what is the point?
Joram
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Joram »

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.    And regarding trade agreements, you can pick examples out of any time and any place where there is no formal trade agreement and trade happens.
taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

regardless of whether the AI thinks a freighter with a laser is a military ship (laughable... an armed freighter is an armed freighter, nothing more, nothing less), there needs to be an option to disable such a notification because its annoying as hell and we keep on getting them...

Actually, it would be nice if you could also auto refuse certain types of deals (aka, auto refuse map trades).
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Joram

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.
BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Joram
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Joram »

ORIGINAL: taltamir
ORIGINAL: Joram

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.
BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
You misunderstand the point then. However, if you like your own analogy, it's wrong too. A trucker bringing a firearm into Mexico would be arrested and vice-versa. I am less sure about Canada but if allowed that would only be because we have treaties in place.
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VarekRaith
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by VarekRaith »

ORIGINAL: taltamir
ORIGINAL: Joram

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.
BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
Number 2 would be more accurately worded as such, 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a 120MM turret. [;)] I don't object to the pilots carrying laser pistols, it's the anti ship weaponry that would concern my empire's advisers. [:'(]
Gertjan
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Gertjan »

I think that with a free trade agreement and/or defense pact, the AI should not be concerned with foreign military ships in their space. IMHO tHis should be addressed soon. I have already pointed this out right from the release of the game (see also the suggestions thread). I am patient as the devs have shown to do things rather quickly, however at some point this can no longer wait [;)]
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thiosk
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by thiosk »

They went to all the trouble of creating ai scripts that would automatically escort passenger ships and the like.

It is the navy's responsibility to protect merchant vessels.

When visiting foreign empires, it is the responsibility of THEIR navy to protect your vessels. (if this is not coded, it should be!)

Most current merchant ships are unable to protect themselves from pirates, and rely on simply escaping or outrunning them, as the last thing you want are rocket propelled grenades slamming into you on an unarmored merchant ship.

Merchant vessels in DW are not so squishy that a single shot will disable them, and they usually seem to get away when less-technologically advanced empires fire on them.

Japan won't let you visit their country and carry a handgun around to protect yourself, so why would the zenox?

I second the notion that a defensive pact should enable you to fly military craft through allied systems.
taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Joram
ORIGINAL: taltamir
ORIGINAL: Joram

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.
BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
You misunderstand the point then. However, if you like your own analogy, it's wrong too. A trucker bringing a firearm into Mexico would be arrested and vice-versa. I am less sure about Canada but if allowed that would only be because we have treaties in place.
he would be arrested... but mexico wouldn't tell the USA to "stop sending your army into our territories"... they would realize its a trucker with a pistol and not an armed invasion.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith
ORIGINAL: taltamir
ORIGINAL: Joram

I disagree with you completely Fishman, any armed ship should be considered military.  Think of your home, would it make a difference to you if a person came in with one gun or twenty.  Not me, I would be just as dead either way.
BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
Number 2 would be more accurately worded as such, 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a 120MM turret. [;)] I don't object to the pilots carrying laser pistols, it's the anti ship weaponry that would concern my empire's advisers. [:'(]
Here a ship analogy is better... an american private transport ship armed with 120MM turret. If piracy and lawlessness were a big issue they wouldn't have a problem with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: taltamir
ORIGINAL: Joram
ORIGINAL: taltamir



BS argument... you want a real world analogy? Imagine you are the united states... and: 1. The Canadian army crosses the border in US soil. 2. American truck drivers bringing trade goods are armed with a pistol

The two are completely different.
You misunderstand the point then. However, if you like your own analogy, it's wrong too. A trucker bringing a firearm into Mexico would be arrested and vice-versa. I am less sure about Canada but if allowed that would only be because we have treaties in place.
he would be arrested... but mexico wouldn't tell the USA to "stop sending your army into our territories"... they would realize its a trucker with a pistol and not an armed invasion.
this is sensible... it also has to do with costs... having armed merchants is unsustainable compared to an armed military escort. The AI should protect ANY merchants in its territory as long as they are not at war with you (in which case your merchants shouldn't go there in the first place... and I mean that their AI should be modified to not enter hostile systems; or deprioritize it at least). And in your systems your military should defend them... putting weapons on all your merchants should hurt your economy... that is, random merchant ship purchases should be limited by "private sector funds" for ships. And related to the profits they turn... that means btw that some upgrades (EX: faster engines) pay for themselves, since faster engines = more profit... but this might be a PITA to code and will exacerbate the already bad RAM issues the game has... so a less ram intensive way is to simply forbid the design of merchant ships with guns... Later on, when a 64bit version is released it might be plausible to allow systems with more ram to do it as the first method described. simply resulting in an increased cost and profits being calculated naturally and so on and so forth... it will require a lot more effort of coding and running extra code that they might want to.

EDIT: another solution would be to abstract the costs and profits rather then keep track of them. This is commonly what happens in such games (Aka, a merchant provides X profit per second, if it dies you lose Y money; X = A*B*C where A you calculate once at its creation based on its design (A is decreased by armaments, improved by engines, etc etc), and B is a variable based on the trade route it is doing and C is empire bonuses and status)
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
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Pipewrench
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by Pipewrench »

some points....

private freight transport is never armed when crossing borders and is frowned upon as gangster style rum running. Go ahead and rent a u-haul and produce a gun at any border crossing and see what happens.

The point of the military is to professionally fight crime(pirates) and enemies of the state. Attacks are made politically with the empire in mind and without this you would have the wild wild west....instant over-reactions,unstable captains and merchants becoming pirates themselfs.

Are you seriously going to give your empires military tech to the private sector for them to use and sell to others? If you only offer a lower tech then who is to say another empire upgrades first and gives that secret to the private sector who's going to sell to the highest bidder. It would be a tech race upgrade to protect lower tech merchants against pirates who have the next generation systems. Merchants after all are only profiting by distributing cargo and if another empire is using the same design but shipping more cargo because they rely on the military and go unarmed they should have a lower cost and a higher profit....they will undercut your sales....

One last thing, arming the transport fleets who are shipping for a profit would not change anything as that exploit could be countered by pirates just upgunning their systems because they do not need the cargo space. They could just have a pirate freighter sitting back waiting for the gunship to disable the armed merchant.

I respect both sides of the coin but I feel the system is fine as is. If the private sector needs protection...build a bigger military.



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taltamir
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RE: "We will not tolerate the presence of your forces in our territory. "

Post by taltamir »

you raise a good point about the loss of tech... giving it to transports is highly risky... Even if they don't sell the tech, they could easily be captured and the tech reverse engineered.

In regards to armed transports crossing borders, it happened IRL with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
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