Another Diplomacy Exploit

[OberonDark]

So, I was playing a Teekan Mercantile Guild with the best economy in the galaxy. An enemy empire colonizes in a system where I have a mining station, and then blame me for invading them (of course). So they say, "give us the mining station or declare war". This is obviously not the best solution, so I chose make another deal. I got rid of all demands so that the trade was balanced at 0-0. The AI reads this as balanced, and forgets all about their original demands, and says mkay this never happened.

Now I mean, being a Jedi ("This is not the Mining Station you're looking for") race is awesome, but it's an exploit. I mean, you have to use it intentionally, but I think it's something that might want to be looked at.

Not high on the priority list, just throwing it out there.

[lordxorn]

I think you are still getting a negative relations with them.

[Wicky]

Yep, for example the Sluken have confronted me with the choice "give us this colony or we declare war". So I click on negotiate different deal, remove the war declaration and trade one tech for another, and they forgot about the war.

[taltamir]

this works in reverse... they offer you a deal, you click on the thing to see more options, change your mind and decide to leave it as they have offered... nope, can't do that... they will refuse the deal now.

[Ranbir]

I think there should be a distinction of "who was here first" so it isn't always the AI accusing you of being belligerent.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Ranbir

I think there should be a distinction of "who was here first" so it isn't always the AI accusing you of being belligerent.

good point, the AI sometimes builds a mining station on MY systems and then accuses me of being belligerent... and I get a bad rep for it too.

[Interesting]

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.

[frugaldude]

ORIGINAL: Interesting

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.

This can easily be fixed. Elliot should prohibit weapons installation on civilian craft to allow the AI to work as it was intended.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Wicky

Yep, for example the Sluken have confronted me with the choice "give us this colony or we declare war". So I click on negotiate different deal, remove the war declaration and trade one tech for another, and they forgot about the war.

95% of the time enemies are threatening to declare war they still wont, its just to goad you into giving them stuff. I'm not even sure if accepting their deal prevents war, all it does is raise your rep with them a bit but they can still decide to fight.

[thiosk]

Beam weapons on private craft should not be outlawed;

when every empire in the galaxy declares war on you, i see no problem in arming my freighters.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: thiosk

Beam weapons on private craft should not be outlawed;

when every empire in the galaxy declares war on you, i see no problem in arming my freighters.

everyone in the galaxy is declaring war on you because you arm your freighters... because the AI sees your freighters have weapons, decides its an invading alien force, and thus goes to war with you over invading their territories... and YOU get counted as the aggressor and thus your reputation decreases, further lowering your relationship with other races and lowering morale on all your planets.

see the problem now? if they don't outlaw it, then they should fix the "rules" so that the AI is not as offended by them.

[JonathanStrange]

Fooling the AI with a nothing-for-nothing trade is amusing but I agree the AI's original demand is more of a bluff: the AI enters a system, a competitor's there, demand something to either get a gift or have the first-comers get a bad rep for a D-O-W. If the infringing AI does give the first-competitor a negative rating, that makes sense too: the AI's telling itself this other civ in the solar system may be trouble later. Not to do so would increase the chance the AI will be surprised when their nice quiet kept to himself neighbor attacks them.

[Gertjan]

I usually accept the offered trades for colonies/mining stations that are not so valuable, since you usually get some ones in return.

[forsaken1111]

Regarding armed civilian ships:

The AI should just ignore any ship which is a privately owned vessel, and only evaluate military ships for the purposes of getting angry about ships being in their system.

In fact the AI should also ignore a few military ships if they are en-route to refuel at a starbase or spaceport. I am buying fuel from you, why are you upset?

[Wade1000]

I agree with Forsaken1111. The opponent AIs should not be offended/threatened by armed private/civilllian ships. I'm very much against many types of artificial limitations. We can not even control such ships.
 
Military ships of certain small numbers should not offend/threaten them either if the destination is a refueling station that is protected.

[Gerth]

"I am buying fuel from you, why are you upset?"

Because no realworld sovereign nation would ever permit such a transgression without an express access treaty. The Somalia pirates are having a ball because private vessels are unarmed. I like the idea of just slightly muting the ai outrage or having other empires provide armed security within their systems.

"I'm very much against many types of artificial limitations."

The idea/mechanic of privately armed ships roaming into sovereign systems is actually the artificial notion. Such a game mechanic in no way reflects reality. Now, I do agree with the notion that realism should be dispensed with when it mitigates the enjoyment of a game. But I don't see arming private vessels as a necessary solution.

[forsaken1111]

At the very least it should be an option or be evaluated based on the strength of the defending ships. My destroyer was on automate so I didn't tell him to go there. Perhaps the game should only allow civilian traffic to dock with and trade with other nations unless you have a treaty.

[Gerth]

Yeah, a treaty exception would be good.

[frugaldude]

ORIGINAL: frugaldude

ORIGINAL: Interesting

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.

This can easily be fixed. Elliot should prohibit weapons installation on civilian craft to allow the AI to work as it was intended.

I admit it.  I was rash in my statement.  I do not think adding weapons to civilian ships should be prohibited.  A red letter design menu warning when you add weapons to your civilian craft should suffice.  I prefer keeping this game as open ended as possible.  Adding restrictions would put this game on the dumbing down road.

I admit I haven't tried arming civilian vessels.  Right now I don't see the attraction.  But some day I may want to arm my ships to add that personal challenge.  As long as I can add challenges this game will remain replayable for me.

I may use this in my game generation.  Suppose I want to lead a large irritating empire which everyone hates.  I could simulate this by arming my civilian ships and would be guaranteed constant conflict with everyone I meet.  Race and government would be irrelevant.
Suppose I have developed a nice cozy empire with excellent relations with everyone.   Arm those merchants.  I'm tough.  Who cares what those other empires think.  In the end my empire lives or dies by my decisions.  I should be able to create this policy which defies galactic norms.

I see this as a gaming issue not a design issue.  If I want to add civilian weapons I have to live with the consequences.  It is my game, my decision.  What I don't expect is the developer having to simplify (dumb down) the structure of the DW due to my gaming decisions.

----sorry about the edits. spelling issues

[HsojVvad]

Someone mentioned about the privite fleet having weapons and that is why they are upset with you. I don't think this is the case because I just left the private fleet as the AI built them, and I only had 4 destroyers 1 frigate and 3 escorts, and the AI says my fleet is huge and threatening? I had a lot of private ships though. I can't see my 10 military ships being so scary and threatening.