Frigates vs Escort

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Taltamir, you plainly like to micro more than I do.

NO I DON'T DEAR GOD!
I said the exact opposite, I said I want it to be fully automated... I want to make a change to the AI so I have to micro less, I want escort to be FULLY AUTOMATED AI SHIPS. I just say that their AI script needs to CONVERGE ON THREATS rather then IGNORE THREATS THAT AREN'T ATTACKING IT! Dear lord do you even read what I post?

I also hang weapons on just about everything, including mining and gas stations. There comes a point in the game where you can simply ignore all this stuff and let the AI handle it if you've built up the proper infrastructure, ports, and escorts.

Putting weapons on freighters makes the AI hate you... putting it on stationary mining bases makes sense and should be done automatically... escorts don't actually protect mining BASES though, only the one freighter they are currently protecting... Arming freighters is completely unnecessary if your AI controlled fleets REACTED TO THREATS BETTER. you don't need weapons on every ship in the system if every system has FULLY AUTOMATED AI CONTROLLED SHIPS THAT CONVERGE ON THREATS.

The kind of stuff you're talking about is, from my perspective, something I worry about early in a game before I've built up properly.

Unless you stop ignoring what I am saying and start respond to my actual claims instead of strawmen that have nothing to do with what I said I am just going to ignore any further comments you make, ok?

[Flaviusx]

Taltamir, fine with me, we are talking past each other.

[taltamir]

oh i listen carefully to what you say... you simply choose to ignore everything I have said. Citing your "dislike of micromanagement" when I repeatedly said in every post that I want it to be fully automated and I am merely talking about the AI scripts.

Now for people who care enough to listen:
Frigate: Smallest ship you can build, patrols systems, converges on enemies.
Escorts: Identical to frigate, only it loses portions of its AI, making it too dumb to converge on threats within a system (that is bad), but also loses the AI portion that make it leave the system to attack enemy empires (that is ARGUABLY good).

Changes needed? modify the AI of escorts to auto converge on threats in a system which you control, thats it.

[Flaviusx]

No, escorts shouldn't converge on enemies. That's not their function. This merely duplicates what frigates already do. If you want to just build frigates, knock yourself out, but we don't need two ship classes doing the same thing. I myself build a mix of both, with the mix varying over time: early on, a bias towards frigates, and late in the game a bias towards escorts.
 
Some of us prefer to arm everything but freighters and colony ships (and I suppose passenger ships) and that's where escorts come in handy. 

[taltamir]

ok... NOW we are talking about the same thing.

Yes, if escorts do that they just "duplicate frigates"... that is a GOOD thing since escort AI makes them a waste of a ship compared to a frigate, hence the op's post that escorts are pointless.
There is also one significant change. Frigates LEAVE your systems to attack enemy planets. An escort which converges on threats does NOT leave your space... this means it is limited purely to defense...

Our argument is that it is far more intelligent use of their capabilities for them to converge... why?
because if there is a threat in system X, it is out there killing freighters until it encounters one protected by an escort... result? you lose freighters, each escort is "unused" 99% of the time.
if they converge then they kill the threats in your systems ASAP, result? you lose less freighters, escort is "unused" much less of the time... win-win.
Whenever there is NO threat in your systems? have them escort ships.

Now that I have explained why it is superior AI for it to act the way I described.
Can you please explain why you think it is superior AI for the "escort" to ignore a pirate that is attacking freighters in the same star system as it as long as it is not the specific one it is currently "guarding"?

[Flaviusx]

Because the AI assigns escorts to escort particular ships. If they converge on threats, they will abandon their escort or at any rate be unavailable for escorting an individual ship. I'd rather have them assigned to my freighters individually. This becomes more and more true as the game goes on and freighters are traveling in heavily built up and defended territory. Between the escort and the bases, pirates just wither.
 
Frigates are for frontier defense. I build fewer of them as time goes on and my empire develops. My fleet composition changes to automated escorts and destroyers/cruisers/capital ships grouped in fleets.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Because the AI assigns escorts to escort particular ships. If they converge on threats, they will abandon their escort or at any rate be unavailable for escorting an individual ship.

yes, resulting in a net GAIN for you since they will save more of your freighters that way. rather then letting the pirate destroy 10 freighters before it attacks THEIR freighter... it will attack the pirate as soon as it enters said system, then return to "escort" duty.

[aprezto]

Am I missing the entire point here when I say: there is absolutely NO difference between each of the military ship types other than you can hang a different type of combat order on a different hull type? Oh, other than I read capital and cruiser ships need two reactors?
 
So, the developers hanging a label on the type of ship is purely causing confusion due to OUR understanding of what an escort or frigate role would be if likened to naval warships (read ocean/sea on earth)?

[taltamir]

There is a huge massive difference... the size of the ship (or at least the size to which the AI designs them) is such that different classes are in different sizes, and bigger is better. plain and simple.

[aprezto]

Oh yes, agreed regarding the AI building them, but is the player restricted in this fashion - or more the point - does the game engine restrict you to certain sizes for each type - I don't think it does.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: aprezto
Oh yes, agreed regarding the AI building them, but is the player restricted in this fashion - or more the point - does the game engine restrict you to certain sizes for each type - I don't think it does.

thats a very good point...

[jam3]

Well and it kind of is the point as well if the most efficient small ship you can make is a fast 160-180 point vessel and the ai script for the ship type frigate is more efficient then what is the point of the ship type escort? Even if making a smaller 120 point vessel makes sense should it just be another frigate since its ai script is superior?

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

There is a huge massive difference... the size of the ship (or at least the size to which the AI designs them) is such that different classes are in different sizes, and bigger is better. plain and simple.

Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger beyond a certain point is overkill and has no economy of force.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: jam3

Well and it kind of is the point as well if the most efficient small ship you can make is a fast 160-180 point vessel and the ai script for the ship type frigate is more efficient then what is the point of the ship type escort? Even if making a smaller 120 point vessel makes sense should it just be another frigate since its ai script is superior?

All I can say is that I have had great success switching to escorts in late, hi tech games and will continue to do so.

It works for me. My empires just are not being eaten alive by pirates trashing 10 freighters in succession and other such parades of horribles. Between bases with defenses and escorts they have no easy targets. I find escorts result in great economy once you've got things set up right.

I don't want escorts changed at all and think they work perfectly fine if you understand when and how to use them. They won't get the job done early on, and that's the frigate era. But frigates become wasteful and inefficient at a certain point in the game.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: aprezto
Oh yes, agreed regarding the AI building them, but is the player restricted in this fashion - or more the point - does the game engine restrict you to certain sizes for each type - I don't think it does.

thats a very good point...

Agreed. I actually find these classifications annoying in this design framework.

I prefer very specialized ships for specific missions, but I find that I'm pushed and almost restricted to one version of each escort, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, and capital ship.

For instance, I like to create a planet buster ship loaded with all bombardment and a couple beams. Maybe I classify it a frigate. Then I have another traditional frigate with torps and beams. Well, as I'm sure you have realized already both the AI and the "upgrade" design choke on two versions of a "frigate". Countless times my bombardment frigate has upgraded itself to a torp/beam frigate, etc. when doing upgrades. You can't even keep the "latest designs" window open because the system refuses to accept you maintain two versions/classes of frigate. The DW design completely ignores the named classes and instead forces one named class in each role.

I could do without that.

[taltamir]

maybe it the whole thing should be reworked as size...
different "types" of ships are "offensive" "escort" "system patrol" ec with different AI... and based on how much components you put on it, it will be classified as a frigate or cruiser or capital ship. Take a frigate (0-200 points of equipment) and add 600 points to it to make it over 800 and its not a capital ship.

[Shark7]

Hmm, while the default ships are quite pathetic....

1. Even with the base techs, I can get an escort or frigate to 48-82 firepower and stay under 200.
2. I do believe that even if you make 2 identical ships, but 1 is frigate chassis and 1 is escort, the escort chassis is cheaper on maintainence.
3. Escorts are for escorting, frigates are for showing the flag in low threat areas.

I design escorts and leave them to escort the freighters, Frigates are best used as system patrols.