BACK IN BUSINESS - PzB goes East again(st) Andy Mac

[Cribtop]

RE Burma. IMHO the key is a house rule that prevents the Allied player from moving Indian Army units across the border unless he pays PPs. This prevents ahistorically early invasions and forces the Allied player to decide to make a strategic commitment to the detriment of other theaters if he wants to make Burma a priority.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: PzB

You think Allies can scrounge LCU's equal to 5000 AV in Burma in 42-43?
- If it's so then something is awry [:'(]
Over the coming year I hope to increase out strength, but even with reserves I will struggle to get more than 2500-2600 AV.
Historically this was enough to keep the Allies on their heels for years.

How do the allies manage to move and supply that level of AV? Does this indicate that the cross country supply is too efficient and needs to be toned down? Or does the map terrain need to be "eroded" a bit more between India and Burma.

IIRC my history on this area, when the allies lost Burma it was a real S_____ to regain it.

you can probably supply an infinite av through the jungle as the supply routine is now. You can´t supply a bgd when it is sitting at a jungle BASE but you can supply the whole Wehrmacht if it would sit five hexes away from your next base in the jungle. You just need to have a lot of supplies at that base. As it stands now, all you have to do is moving your LCUs OUT of a base and everything is fine. Keep them in a base and they probably will starve to death. Borked but that´s how it is and if the only goal is bug busting in future then it will just stay as it is.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

But, AV alone does not tell the whole story. The Indian army is short on modern weapons and good leadership and Andy may not have enough PPs to change them out. Experience and morale could be a bit low also.

I´ve always thought that too until I was looking at the editor. If you compare the 18 pounder with the 25 pounder then you will find out that there´s more or less no difference in it´s effect rating. Same goes for those mountain guns. I guess the upgrading of the equipment isn´t really that important. What is important is actually having any equipment. [:D]

[Milman]

Since geraldtown is main event i have one question. What determines unit surrender/retreat choice ? I mean how far from friendly base should unit be to surrender ?

[PzB74]

Well, I can fine well not ask Andy to introduce new house rules limiting their offensive dispositions after the games have started, so I'm quite stuck with the situation as it is.

As I see it I would have had to strip most of Burma to successfully tangle with the large Allied Army near Perth, and that's not an option. Troops extraced from West Coast of Oz goes to Soerabaja / Darwin / Singapore to refit and as tactical reserves.

Our troops near Geraldton will not surrender, there is a base to their north with a supply line and we got a tank regiment sitting on the exit hex to the north. Half expecting Andy to bring his surface fleet to Perth, but he'd better hurry because something big and powerful is currently approaching Darwin, heading west...

[PzB74]

well, looks like we have an issue!
Just ran the next turn and after a heavy naval bombardment and attack Andy captured Geraldton.

Last turn I considered setting all units to move instead of combat as they had moved 30 miles north towards Carnarvon.
Decided against it as I didn't think the units would be able to cover the remaining distance before being attacked.
- A decision that turned out to be correct because the one small engineer unit that I ordered to march didn't get out either.

Here is the issue:
After marchign 40 miles north towards Carnarvon our troops retreat....not the few miles north towards the safe base of Carnavon....but east towards the unsupplied dot base you can see on the map below [:@]

This is a joke made possible by some not to adequate ground combat and move - retreat routines.
Now I have ca 20k troops cut of without hope of supply and salvation.

Will take this up with Andy, please let me know what you think.



I sent this same info to Andy and added the following request:
- "What I would like is to ask if its possible to "move" my troops to the hex north of Geraldton, then you can pursue and destroy them towards Carnarvon while I try to save some of them."

[Nomad]

I have had similar situations in China. The units will retreat towards the nearest base regardless of supply status or anything else.

[PzB74]

I didn't know that the troops would retreat east...the dot base has 0 supply and would be the suicide choice no matter that it's closer thant Carnavon [:(]

If I had known this I would have left Geraldton earlier.
Just can't afford to loose 2 divisions worth of troops to such BS!

[jrcar]

Moral, don't start a land war in Asia... or Australia!



cheers

Rob

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PzB

I didn't know that the troops would retreat east...the dot base has 0 supply and would be the suicide choice no matter that it's closer thant Carnavon [:(]

If I had known this I would have left Geraldton earlier.
Just can't afford to loose 2 divisions worth of troops to such BS!

it happens to both sides and it´s happening all the time. You can never expect units to retreat somewhere you expect them to. If Andy lets you move North without being attacked, then this is something that should be valid through the whole game and will come up again and again as units retreat to somewhere I don´t want them to all the time.

[PzB74]

Yeah, I've considered minimizing land combat to avoid FUBAR....[8|]

- It's not a question of being allowed to move north without being attacked, but to be put in the retreat hex north of Geraldton were we can _attempt_ to move north while enemy troops pursue and reduce our retreating troops.

Being trapped towards the dot base = elimination.

IMHO troops that have 2 retreat options should prioritize retreat towards a large built up base with supplies. A dot base should be a last option.
------------------------------

Been talking with Andy; no save game editor, so troops can not be moved.
He graciously offered to wait 6 days until I move into the hex NW of Geraldton and capturing the dot hex with paras before assaulting my retreated troops again.

- I don't think it's fair for Andy to loose so many days; suggested that we both march our troops into the hex NW of Geraldton.
Should take Andy 3 days to get there and he can then assault the Japs troops as soon as they are in the hex. With the dot hex captured he can then pursue - attack the troops as they retreat towards Carnarvon.

The units will most likely become decimated but it gives me a chance to save some of them and counterattack / delay his progress. Got both the KB and a battle fleet enroute to the area.

Being destroyed 70-90% while retreating is ok, loosing all troops over the next 2 weeks in a meaningless slaughter towards the dot hex without having any hope of retaliating or getting a single unit out would be very frustrating.

[Cribtop]

Ugh. What a mess. Hopefully you guys can work something out, but as other posters have pointed out this can happen over and over again. At least now we all know that LCUs retreat toward the nearest base regardless of other factors and can anticipate the problem, but that doesn't mean there's a solution. Worse, I can envision situations in which a player will be forced to make suboptimal choices on where to defend because of the retreat rules.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Well, I can fine well not ask Andy to introduce new house rules limiting their offensive dispositions after the games have started, so I'm quite stuck with the situation as it is.

You could ask what is the practice he is operating under - using PP's or no? Then you would be free of just wondering about it.

BTW, just read your situation with the retreat from Geraldton. You and Andy are two first-class sportsmanlike opponents!

[PzB74]

Andy was very sporty in this even; hope to repay the favor later on [:)]

Ok we're back on track; was a long and tiresome derailing!
Never been in a similar situation after almost 10 years of UV - WitP - AE.
Learn something every day...one way or the other!

No idea if I'm going to save some of the Geraldton troops, but I hope to
a) Keep Allied troops tied up for some weeks
b) Get some cadre units out from Carnarvon

Was feeling confident that I would be able to march out of Geraldton in good order, missed just a single day.
That ship bombardment must have wrecked fighting abilities quite badly.

Yeah, asked Andy about PPs for India - Burma.
We agreed on a house rule that restricted units moving between national borders have to pay PPs.
- So Andy has to pay up before moving in.

Also asked about supply requirements inside and outside base hexes; here's the Dr Ground combat reply [;)]

Units will be undersupplied if in a non base hex because local bases have limited ability to stockpile along the Assam border.

Wastage is also extreme if you are moving off road.

So a single unit may be fully supplied as long as the source base has a stockpile but getting a stockpile is difficult and the further you are from a base the more wastage occurs this is especially the case in Assam and north Burma and North Australia where we put in dailty limits that as base me receive supply wise.

e.g. Assume Imphal is lvl 5 AF and lvl 3 forts it will recieve 1200 a day normally 600 per day jn monsoon season unless I fly it in or ship it in.

In combat operartions a CW Div takes about 4,000 per month (rule of thumb I use) so in monsoon if I was fighting in Imphal on defensive in the base hex assuming no AF, Base forces wastage, or other uses for supply then I could support 3 Divs fully supplied at Imphal in combat and have a small surplus coming in

Now every hex I move away from Imphal depending on the road and terrain increases the wastage getting the supply to the front – I use a personal rule of thumb of 50% per non road jungle hex so operating 1 hex off road would cost me 6,000 per month or 2 hexes 9,000 per month so in Monsoon season its very hard for me to project power along the Assam front,

When the bases are built up as different bases grow more depending on how connected they are and more of the bases in the area are developed and I can draw from them more and larger forces can be supplied but its tough

Now that’s not to say combat and attacks are impossible just that you need either a big daily supply allowance, a large stockpile or be willing to operate without being fully supplied. Today right now I could fully supply 3 Divs in the Imphal hex assuming no construction airpower or stockpiling.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 16, 42

Bombardments

I think this caused our demise at Geraldton....

Naval bombardment of Geraldton at 49,141

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
CA Houston
CA Northampton
CA Indianapolis
CA Portland
CL Nashville
CL St. Louis
CL Concord

Japanese ground losses:
906 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 24 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 53 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 24 (4 destroyed, 20 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Airbase hits 24
Airbase supply hits 18
Runway hits 254
Port hits 8
Port supply hits 1

BB Mississippi firing at 6th Guards Division
BB New Mexico firing at 6th Guards Division
BB Idaho firing at 65th Brigade
CA Houston firing at 6th Guards Division
CA Northampton firing at 6th Guards Division
CA Indianapolis firing at Geraldton
CA Portland firing at Geraldton
CL Nashville firing at 65th Brigade
CL St. Louis firing at Geraldton
CL Concord firing at 6th Guards Division
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Morning Air attack on Geraldton , at 49,141
Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 6
Hudson I x 6
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-25B Mitchell x 3
B-26 Marauder x 11

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
56 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Geraldton (49,141)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 55617 troops, 1066 guns, 2355 vehicles, Assault Value = 2197
Defending force 23966 troops, 271 guns, 172 vehicles, Assault Value = 799

Allied adjusted assault: 1688
Japanese adjusted defense: 229

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 2)
Allied forces CAPTURE Geraldton !!!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3830 casualties reported
Squads: 225 destroyed, 63 disabled
Non Combat: 270 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 30 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 128 (126 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Vehicles lost 143 (141 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Units retreated 11

Allied ground losses:
1026 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 81 disabled
Non Combat: 35 destroyed, 108 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Vehicles lost 106 (23 destroyed, 83 disabled)

Assaulting units:
1st Motor Brigade
192nd Tank Battalion
27th Infantry Division
10th Light Horse Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
255th Armoured Brigade
2/9th Armoured Regiment
41st Infantry Division
Americal Infantry Division
159th Mot Infantry Regiment
2/11th Armoured Car Battalion
40th Infantry Division
7th Armoured Brigade
III Indian Corps
2/13th Field Regiment
2/9th Field Regiment
2nd Medium Regiment
226th Field Artillery Battalion
21/22 Field Regiment
13th Australian Hvy AA Regiment
8th Medium Regiment

Defending units:
2nd Recon Regiment
II./124th Infantry Battalion
65th Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
6th Guards Division
18th Mountain Gun Regiment
1st Engineer Co
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
40th Field AA Battalion
21st Army
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

New frontline fighters

More and more Tojo's are entering service.
I'm upgrading every second unit in Malaya - Burma and Australia.
Also trying to combine fighter units; much better to have size 36-42-45 units when you need to perform sweeps.

[PzB74]

Quiet turn.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 17, 42

Been musing about how to defend the rest of Oz.
If we want to keep it throughout 42 we need to fight for it.

- After the West Coast Exodus is over we can divide the occupied territories into 2 main zones.

1. The area from Normanton and down to Rockhampton and west towards Alice Springs

As you can see there are 850 vehicles and 67k troops reported in Maryborough with another 21k in Charleville.

I've dug in a small army in the rough terrain north of Charleville.
The challenge is those large mech units rolling into Rockhampton; if Andy move in reinforcements I can't hold if our forces are divided.

I'm therefore thinking of abandoning Townsville if a strong enemy force is moving in and instead fighting for Bowen which is closer to Townsville and in more favorable defensive terrain. If Andy tries to flank us he can't be equally strong on both axis and I can divert forces towards the flanks and take advantage of the very strong net of airfields and aviation support I'm building in the area. Together with 2100 AV we should be able to resist a strong enemy force.

When we are threatened by overwhelming force I will order a general evacuation from the coastal cities and use the fleet to support our withdrawal. The hope is to hold on throughout 42.

2. North Coast and road leading down to Alice Springs

This is a challenging place to attack / defend. When Andy rolls in here he will bring with him his mechanized army.
The question is if he will move on Alice Springs before or after Rockhampton - Townsville. In any case, we have to be ready.
- The big, big, big danger is being defeated at Alice Springs and pursued by large number of tanks units all the way back into Darwin. This can not be allowed and there are only a couple of remedies - and I need to implement them both.

a) Reinforce Alice Springs so much that Andy can't boot us out
b) Prepare fortified positions to the rear of Alice Springs with dug in reinforcements that can halt an armored pursuit.

- The question is: how many AV do we need and how many can we provide.
At least 1500 in Alice Springs alone with 200 more in Tennant Creek.
...I need to get to work!

Again I'm counting on a strong Army Air Force in the area around Townsville to seriously disrupt an enemy attack.
I've already moved an Air HQ to Alice Springs and will move a 100 Tojo's there.

Eastern Oz

[PzB74]

Looks like I'm going to the London office to do some work soon...any cockneys around for a beer around the 25-26th of April?
Still a tentative date, but these are the dates I got for now.

[2ndACR]

You should look Andy us.......A Scot IIRC.

[PzB74]

Yep, gave him a notice today! [:)]

Another quiet turn. Continued night bombing air attacks against Magwe in Burma by multiple enemy units.
5 ac were actually destroyed on the ground today as weather improved. Let's try some Oscars on night CAP to discourage them.

Spent time going over combat formations this turn to "scrounge" units [:'(]
The idea is to keep key areas well manned and keep building up quiet sectors while keeping them relatively lightly garrisoned.
- If I can manage ca 4000 AV in Australia we can split them and send 2000 to the SRA and 2000 to NG - Solomons when we bug out.

New units in China that arrives with only a cadre will be released for a low amount of PPs and shipped to places like Truk and Singapore to build up to full strength.

The 2nd Carrier Fleet is now in Truk; is tempting to send it out to raid shipping lanes as I feel confident that no large US carrier fleet is about...hm

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 18, 42

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I still don't have the game, but i think one of AE changes was that units costs in PP depends on TOE and not on actual strength. So cost in PP is the same for full and depleted unit. But probably I am wrong - could you check that?

[Nomad]

That is true for aircraft, not completely sure about LCUs.