Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

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Malevolence
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Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Malevolence »

The ship (edit) design screen displays a value for "Excess Energy Output" in the upper right hand corner, under the title "Energy".

Why is this called excess? What does this value represent?

Warning to new players: Based on comments here in the forum, it's clear that to properly build a a ship you must have excess energy output built into your design.

Energy Use Explained
ORIGINAL: Sliverine

Static energy usage is what your ship uses all the time regardless of whether its moving or fighting or dying. It starts using that amt from the moment it exits the yard.

Energy generation can come in 2 forms: either via generators which burn fuel to provide a constant steady stream or via energy collectors, which dont burn anything but have varying amounts of energy production depending on how far away the nearest energy source is. The value listed for collectors is presumably the max value of energy they can collect.

Energy excess is CONSTANT energy generation minus static energy usage. By constant it means collector energy isnt taken into account.

Additional energy ON TOP OF the static usage is required whenever you move (use engines) or when u fire weapons. Typically things which require additional energy for usage outside of whatever static energy they already use will have it listed. 'Static energy' and 'Energy usage' is not the same thing (a good example of this differentiation can be typically found on engines which usually require both static and normal usage).

There are different calculations for ship energy usage but i will only touch on the most basic aspect, that is to say, your energy produced should at all times be at least one higher (NOT equal) to the sum of:
-static energy usage &
-warp energy usage (reflected in the purple part of the graph).

Following this general rule guarantees that your ship will always warp at its full rated speed which is an important factor. If your production is lower then your sum, your warp speed will be significantly reduced depending on how much energy you are lacking.

If you want to find the minimum energy required for ships to engage in combat without running out, u have to factor in static usage, sprint usage and weapon usage. Please note that collectors dont work while the ship is moving! People only put collectors on their ships to cover static energy usage in order to save fuel costs since ships mostly (while under automation) just stone around.

For bases, it depends on whether your base is located in deep space or near something which is usually put in a system or near things which give out energy (like black holes or supernovas). Deep space bases have to rely solely on reactors to run therefore, they have to be constantly replenished with fuel and thus, have to be able to hold a reasonable amt of fuel (at least long enough for the transport ship to make one fuel trip with breaks inbetween). Bases that are near energy sources can be designed to be run on collectors alone but you have to make sure your generation is higher then your static usage since collectors have varying levels of energy collection with regards to their distance from the source.
ORIGINAL: Sliverine
... there isnt one (value displayed) as of yet that shows you everything in one simple value. You have to manually add in the engine usage and weapon usage yourself (u might even have to calculate your weapon usage since the value shown is on a per-shot basis not a per-second basis).
ORIGINAL: Shark7
You will notice that without the excess energy output, your hyperspace speed will suffer...20k seems to be the max, but without enough reactors, you won't reach it.

Important Links

Future Changes
ORIGINAL: elliotg

I agree that we need a better view of how your weapons energy use relates to your reactor energy output.

We'll add a line in the Weapons panel on the Design screen to show the "total weapons energy use per second". You can then relate that to your reactor energy output to better balance your designs.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just FYI, this is one of the points coming in the 1.0.4 Beta:

- Added maximum weapons energy use to Design screen (top of Weapons panel) so that you can compare reactor power output to optimize military designs
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HsojVvad
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by HsojVvad »

I have assumed excess engergy output is the energy you are creating that is not used by static energy that needs to be on all the time, like life support, habitation moduels, sensors etc. So stuff like moving, firing weapons uses up the excess energy. Then you have to recharge this energy, so if you don't have enough excess energy, you will have a harder time in firing those weapons and going the fastest speed you can, or turning faster.
Sliverine
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Sliverine »

Static energy usage is what your ship uses all the time regardless of whether its moving or fighting or dying. It starts using that amt from the moment it exits the yard.

Energy generation can come in 2 forms: either via generators which burn fuel to provide a constant steady stream or via energy collectors, which dont burn anything but have varying amounts of energy production depending on how far away the nearest energy source is. The value listed for collectors is presumably the max value of energy they can collect.

Energy excess is CONSTANT energy generation minus static energy usage. By constant it means collector energy isnt taken into account.

Additional energy ON TOP OF the static usage is required whenever you move (use engines) or when u fire weapons. Typically things which require additional energy for usage outside of whatever static energy they already use will have it listed. 'Static energy' and 'Energy usage' is not the same thing (a good example of this differentiation can be typically found on engines which usually require both static and normal usage).

There are different calculations for ship energy usage but i will only touch on the most basic aspect, that is to say, your energy produced should at all times be at least one higher (NOT equal) to the sum of:
-static energy usage &
-warp energy usage (reflected in the purple part of the graph).

Following this general rule guarantees that your ship will always warp at its full rated speed which is an important factor. If your production is lower then your sum, your warp speed will be significantly reduced depending on how much energy you are lacking.

If you want to find the minimum energy required for ships to engage in combat without running out, u have to factor in static usage, sprint usage and weapon usage. Please note that collectors dont work while the ship is moving! People only put collectors on their ships to cover static energy usage in order to save fuel costs since ships mostly (while under automation) just stone around.

For bases, it depends on whether your base is located in deep space or near something which is usually put in a system or near things which give out energy (like black holes or supernovas). Deep space bases have to rely solely on reactors to run therefore, they have to be constantly replenished with fuel and thus, have to be able to hold a reasonable amt of fuel (at least long enough for the transport ship to make one fuel trip with breaks inbetween). Bases that are near energy sources can be designed to be run on collectors alone but you have to make sure your generation is higher then your static usage since collectors have varying levels of energy collection with regards to their distance from the source.
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Malevolence
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Malevolence »

So where do we read the value of our "rechargeable" energy needs?

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Sliverine
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Sliverine »

rechargeable? if by that you meant the value of non-static energy use like weapons fire or engines, there isnt one as of yet that shows you everything in one simple value. You have to manually add in the engine usage and weapon usage yourself (u might even have to calculate your weapon usage since the value shown is on a per-shot basis not a per-second basis).
If my lawn were emo, it would mow itself
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Malevolence
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL:  Wicky

How much energy does my weapon consume per second? Read it here:

Maxos Blaster 9,7
Concussion Beam 9,1
Maxos Blaster XL 11,3
Impact Assault Blaster D5 23,8
Shatterforce Laser 14,0
Titan Beam 20,0
Impact Assault Blaster D9 27,5
Titan Beam SR 24,3

Epsilon Torpedo KTX-3000 7,9
Velocity Shard 10,0
Epsilon Torpedo KTX-5200 10,5
Plasma Desolator 5,6
Shockwave Torpedo 14,3
Velocity Shard HT 18,3
Black Rain 26,7
Plasma Thunderbolt 24,6
Nuclear Exterminator 4,9
Plasma Thunderbolt MX 24,6
*Shaktur Firestorm 11,3

Intimitator Surgewave WSD-90 9,2
Derasian Shockwave WSD-140 10,0
Intimitator Surgewave WSD-180 14,2
Derasian Shockwave WSD-230 12,8

I thought I'd share the list I made for myself with you, because it's so much easier to design ships. For example when I use 20 Shatterforce Lasers on a ship, 14*20 = 280 energy usage +70 energy for cruising at sprint speed, makes 350 excess energy that I need, to be able to pursue a pirate at full speed whith all weapons firing.
Very simple, hope you like it!

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
Dadekster
Posts: 141
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Dadekster »

I find the documentation very lacking. I can see all sorts of tactical possibilities with the system they have in place...but good grief why is all this information so not made avaliable in a manual or something? Or am I goofing and it is somewhere? I read everything that came with my download I thought....
Interesting
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Interesting »

We figure out playing.

You design your military ship, very pretty with lots of weapons, then you build it and watch it closely as you send him to attack a pirate.

Then you notice that he runs out of energy after 3 seconds! Well, you dont need this on the manual, because its easily spottable by a normal person.


You also have information about energy consumption of each weapon based on each shot and the refire rate of each weapon, that way you can calculate how much energy each weapon needs for x time...

Everything has to be thought inside your head. Is that the problem? I dont see a problem with that. Thinking is never a problem in games, in fact, I prefer games that force me to think like that.

But I understand some people prefer to have the information spoonfed to them: bit by bit. In the case, these players want to know how long they can keep shooting all their weapons (its an assumption) based on their maximum energy storage, they also might want to know once they deplet that energy stock, based on their current reactors, what % of their weapons output will be firing non stop, or how many weapons can keep firing intermitently while regenerating... They might want to know how long the fuel reserves will last... etc...

In short, people want to know EVERY DETAIL, in a clear way.

Lets blame the developers for not giving that to the players? Throw the first rock then.


And if players have the "right" to know this details, then think about the whole PRIVATE section. People wanting to understand (to control) the whole economy, freighter by freighter, each minimum design detail of its freighter for a specific purpose...

You will eventually realize that people want to know 100% of the game mechanics. Yeah.

There was a time when game mechanics werent questioned, or ANA-LISED.
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Malevolence
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Malevolence »

I don't really get the point of your post Interesting. We have a value on the Edit design window called, "Excess Energy Output." The word excess is defined as, "a quantity larger than is needed". Obviously, the energy is needed, so we are trying to clarify meaning of this value in relation to ship design.

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Fishman
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: Interesting

There was a time when game mechanics werent questioned, or ANA-LISED.
When? By who, losers? You're playing a WAR GAME. People have SUCKED THE LIFE OUT OF WAR GAMES snce before we even had COMPUTERS.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Erik Rutins »

Just FYI, this is one of the points coming in the 1.0.4 Beta:

- Added maximum weapons energy use to Design screen (top of Weapons panel) so that you can compare reactor power output to optimize military designs
Erik Rutins
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Interesting
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Interesting »

ORIGINAL: Fishman
ORIGINAL: Interesting

There was a time when game mechanics werent questioned, or ANA-LISED.
When? By who, losers? You're playing a WAR GAME. People have SUCKED THE LIFE OUT OF WAR GAMES snce before we even had COMPUTERS.

Im not complaining or positioning myself, just stating a fact. The other guy complained the specific mechanic of this topic wasnt made obvious/clear enough and I just escalated his stance out of proportion to light a question: how much should players know? Should we blame developers for it? I dont give the answer as well. I affirm that based on players will, they would like to know 100% of the game mechanics. Then I mention how it was in the past where people didnt. I expose a contrast, but it doesnt mean Im critisizing any sides. Im philosophying, people get confused with that, because they are too acostumed to forum wars and taking positions and going against each other rather than thinking together and reaching something. Thats all.

I personally would like to know everything and have freedom/control over everything. Like a developer tweaking his own personal version of the game. I wish all games would give us that freedom, to understand and change its mechanics.
Dadekster
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Dadekster »

Well I am glad you explained that a bit further Interesting because your reply to my first post on this board sure seemed to put a lot of words in my mouth that I never said not to mention you seemed to treat me like I was some 7 year old kid :) I actually registered because I really like this game and I would love to see it improve some more. My point stands that the manual does a horrible job of explaining many things, one of which is ship design.

Another good example is how resources work in the game of which there is a recent topic which attempts to explain it in better detail. Imo I shouldn't have to come to the boards to read threads like this to figure out key game play elements though. Saying to just plop mining stations or to send miners to resources or set everything on auto as the manual does doesn't help me understand how it really works. I'm no spreadsheet gamer, as a matter of fact I hate that. I play Eve and I see enough of that there. But I would also like to be able to make educated decisions on what to do regarding my economy or how to design an efficent ship design. Now some people enjoy breaking down the whole game and seeing everything in an eqation, more power to them. Me, I like to just fire up my game after work and escape from reality and not make too many bonehead decisions in my game. ;)

The whole hands off approach in relation to many aspects of running an empire is something really new to me and I think it's great. I know other games have tried to work in a lot of automation, but DW is the first game I have come across where I feel like I really have a job to do regarding the citizens of my empire and keeping them safe in order to have a functioning said, empire. I am happy to hear that there will be more feedback as far as how adding weapons/components will effect your power levels both static and used. That's pretty much all I would like to see tbh. Just more feedback on how my choices effect gameplay and it sounds like you guys are on it. Like I said before, great game so far and I think it can only get better with the constant tweaking you guys are putting into it.
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Wenla
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Wenla »

ORIGINAL: Interesting

We figure out playing.

You design your military ship, very pretty with lots of weapons, then you build it and watch it closely as you send him to attack a pirate.

Then you notice that he runs out of energy after 3 seconds! Well, you dont need this on the manual, because its easily spottable by a normal person.


You also have information about energy consumption of each weapon based on each shot and the refire rate of each weapon, that way you can calculate how much energy each weapon needs for x time...

Everything has to be thought inside your head. Is that the problem? I dont see a problem with that. Thinking is never a problem in games, in fact, I prefer games that force me to think like that.

etc etc

As far as I can understand (I may be wrong, I haven't got my copy yet) DW is strategy game. IMHO strategy is not collecting facts/game mechanics but how you use those things. If you are general/emperor/what ever to responsibile for strategy you don't have to calculate how much moving weapons (tanks, capital ships, transporters) consume energy, you are given needed information how far/fast those get and you use that knowledge to define and/or implement your strategy.
Before you can define your strategy, you have to have a vision
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Shark7
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

The ship (edit) design screen displays a value for "Excess Energy Output" in the upper right hand corner, under the title "Energy".

Why is this called excess? What does this value represent?

Warning to new players: Based on comments here in the forum, it's clear that to properly build a a ship you must have excess energy output built into your design.

Energy Use Explained
ORIGINAL: Sliverine

Static energy usage is what your ship uses all the time regardless of whether its moving or fighting or dying. It starts using that amt from the moment it exits the yard.

Energy generation can come in 2 forms: either via generators which burn fuel to provide a constant steady stream or via energy collectors, which dont burn anything but have varying amounts of energy production depending on how far away the nearest energy source is. The value listed for collectors is presumably the max value of energy they can collect.

Energy excess is CONSTANT energy generation minus static energy usage. By constant it means collector energy isnt taken into account.

Additional energy ON TOP OF the static usage is required whenever you move (use engines) or when u fire weapons. Typically things which require additional energy for usage outside of whatever static energy they already use will have it listed. 'Static energy' and 'Energy usage' is not the same thing (a good example of this differentiation can be typically found on engines which usually require both static and normal usage).

There are different calculations for ship energy usage but i will only touch on the most basic aspect, that is to say, your energy produced should at all times be at least one higher (NOT equal) to the sum of:
-static energy usage &
-warp energy usage (reflected in the purple part of the graph).

Following this general rule guarantees that your ship will always warp at its full rated speed which is an important factor. If your production is lower then your sum, your warp speed will be significantly reduced depending on how much energy you are lacking.

If you want to find the minimum energy required for ships to engage in combat without running out, u have to factor in static usage, sprint usage and weapon usage. Please note that collectors dont work while the ship is moving! People only put collectors on their ships to cover static energy usage in order to save fuel costs since ships mostly (while under automation) just stone around.

For bases, it depends on whether your base is located in deep space or near something which is usually put in a system or near things which give out energy (like black holes or supernovas). Deep space bases have to rely solely on reactors to run therefore, they have to be constantly replenished with fuel and thus, have to be able to hold a reasonable amt of fuel (at least long enough for the transport ship to make one fuel trip with breaks inbetween). Bases that are near energy sources can be designed to be run on collectors alone but you have to make sure your generation is higher then your static usage since collectors have varying levels of energy collection with regards to their distance from the source.
ORIGINAL: Sliverine
... there isnt one (value displayed) as of yet that shows you everything in one simple value. You have to manually add in the engine usage and weapon usage yourself (u might even have to calculate your weapon usage since the value shown is on a per-shot basis not a per-second basis).

Important Links

Future Changes
ORIGINAL: elliotg

I agree that we need a better view of how your weapons energy use relates to your reactor energy output.

We'll add a line in the Weapons panel on the Design screen to show the "total weapons energy use per second". You can then relate that to your reactor energy output to better balance your designs.

You will notice that without the excess energy output, your hyperspace speed will suffer...20k seems to be the max, but without enough reactors, you won't reach it.
Distant Worlds Fan

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gargoil
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: Wenla
As far as I can understand (I may be wrong, I haven't got my copy yet) DW is strategy game. IMHO strategy is not collecting facts/game mechanics but how you use those things. If you are general/emperor/what ever to responsibile for strategy you don't have to calculate how much moving weapons (tanks, capital ships, transporters) consume energy, you are given needed information how far/fast those get and you use that knowledge to define and/or implement your strategy.
Since ship design IS PART OF THE GAME, there is a need to know the details. And watching them can tell you that they are not working properly, but there needs to be a way to quantify that.
Gertjan
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Gertjan »

I disagree. By default ship design is on automation. Unfortunately, while the AI does a decent job, it could do much better based on expert players' feedback. I hope this is used in in future updates. This game has an emperor/macro focus and I suppose that many players dont want to spend hours in the ship design screen.
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Malevolence
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Malevolence »

Glad to see this update in the upcoming patch.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
Fishman
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: Interesting

Im not complaining or positioning myself, just stating a fact.
And I'm pointing out that this fact is actually false, since game mechanics have been questioned and analyzed before we even had computers. People dissected Chess before it had even made it out of India.
ORIGINAL: Interesting

Then I mention how it was in the past where people didnt.
Yes, but this point isn't TRUE. People have dissected the mechanics of games before we even had electricity. Remember, in those days, people who had time to play games at all were REALLY BORED. Games weren't even fun, as fun hadn't been invented yet, and so people dissected their mechanics out of sheer and utter boredom, to beat the crap out of their opponents...rather like we do now.

The only change is that now, instead of the rules of the game being explicitly defined where knowledge of them was required to even play the game, games are now implemented by machine, so a monkey can blindly poke buttons without any understanding of how the game works, and sometimes even win that way.
Dadekster
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RE: Excess Energy Output isn't Excess

Post by Dadekster »

I just want to understand how it works. What I don't want is a stupid build order like what made me stop playing Age of Empires a long time ago. I remember I used to love playing that game, then I saw people had pieces of paper taped to their monitors that showed that at ten second after the game you had to build 2 villagers and have them cut wood, then at 18 seconds you had to build a two more and have them pick berriers and etc, all while using keyboard shortcuts. It was at that point I didn't feel it was a game and more a test of who could spreadsheet better. I don't want to know DW like that. I just want to know things like how many cargo containers I should, in general, put on a light freighter versus a medium one. Things like that.
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