UPDATED: Distant Worlds 1.0.4 Public Beta 2 Now Available

[Sigh]

The game is broken in the true sense of the word. Thats all there is to it. Broken does NOT mean its "unplayable" Where would one draw the line then? Have you ever seen a game that is truly unplayable? didn't think so. Good for you if your having fun. It's still broken. A game that crashes this often is broken (again im not even talking about the game design which is/was also broken.. they seem to be fixing this part up)

And im not uploading anything. There are enough of you who like the feeling of being involved. Keep paying to be part of the team. It seems like a great business model.. But one that I and some other developers will never adapt.

Also you guys really seem to like ignoring the fact that I am fair in my observations (subjectively fair anyways). Im not just saying everything is bad. Im not only posting bad things for the hell of it. I also post what I find to be good (and actually prefer doing that because whether you believe it or not im not trying to be a troll). So yes. I perceive most of you as fanboys. People who can not stand the fact that something they like is being criticized.

Its meant for the designers (who i felt really really cheated by). I really could give a rats butt about what you guys think as I obviously dont respect your opinion anyways. But i guess thats to antagonistic right? Not suger coating everything?

and for the record there are plenty of people online saying matrix sells broken games (at release.. the consensus is that they do fix them up). The people here who are obviously biased do not prove me wrong.

[Erik Rutins]

Ok everyone, please just let me deal with Sigh. I know his behavior has been poor and he has been warned, but please leave the rest to me.

Sigh, I resent your comment about this being a "business model". It is in fact the opposite of our "business model" to have any issues to fix post-release, but there's the ideal and then there's reality and this affects teams much larger than ours with several magnitudes more resources in development and testing. We have been doing, in my opinion, a good job of dealing with reality once we did not achieve the ideal we were aiming for. I think the difference between you and most of our customers is that your definition of "broken" is quite different from most everyone else's.

I'm glad 1.0.4 is making you a bit happier with the game, I'm confident that as we continue updating it, even very critical customers like you will come around. I know what the game can do and I know what we and Elliot can do and I look forward to making Distant Worlds so good that there's no room left for this kind of commentary. You mention that you are a developer. I look forward to playing your bug-free game, which you built on a shoestring with a small team, could you perhaps give us a link?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Sigh
Its meant for the designers (who i felt really really cheated by). I really could give a rats butt about what you guys think as I obviously dont respect your opinion anyways. But i guess thats to antagonistic right? Not suger coating everything?

I think you have enough self-awareness to know how that comes across. I just wonder if this is how you speak with people in person as well or only anonymously on the internet?

and for the record there are plenty of people online saying matrix sells broken games (at release.. the consensus is that they do fix them up). The people here who are obviously biased do not prove me wrong.

We've released over 100 games over the years. When I hear this argument, I generally see it reference one of about five games, over and over again. We are not perfect and we've certainly made some mistakes in release calls, but it's completely false to suggest that we "sell broken games". I know our philosophy and the work we put into these releases and it's about getting out a quality product. We always put quality ahead of release dates or other concerns and most of the time things work out as expected. I'd say our record on releases being relatively bug-free and working as intended at release is as good as most and better than many. I'm glad you noted that we do fix up the ones that do not me our (or the customers') expectations.

[Sigh]

As a developer with a business I think you understand that that would be a very very dumb move [;)]
It's besides the point anyways. I haven't done anything this ambitious (and despite the way I talk I don't consider myself a better programmer then you guys)  but I have seen others pull it off and sell the product for a fraction of the price. It's not your skill but the unfinished release that gets to me.

I do not produce bug free software. Nobody does (at least for something this ambitious). But i would never release anything in this state and ask 60 dollars for it. (To be fair I do not have to worry about deadlines.. still, indie games as ambitious as this have been released in much better condition)

I am actually semi-confident in the game becoming very good as time passes... its just as i said: Personally I find it unacceptable to sell something that doesn't work and when I can find a crash after literally 3 mins of playing a new patch i lose hope (and obviously get emotional).

I'm very very sure that I'm not the only one who sees it the same way.. I'm prob just one of the more vocal ones. Again: People would not be surprised to see a disgruntled customer being very vocal about a physical product. (even if they did find it out of line)

Anyways after my last outburst at the patch and then my playing of the second beta I told myself I'm not going to be an ass anymore. But I will still comment (and im not sugercoating anything). Im just defending my overall stance right now because the suggestion of ignoring me didn't work to well

Understand (i think you do actually) that i had no other way to vent out my frustration.. I COULD have just pirated the game you know

I really am pretty surprised by the 1.04 patch. The game has become much more enjoyable. Still the reported crashes need to be fixed.. It does break the game.

So ill leave it at this: Im not going to be a complete ass anymore ok? Ill let you know about bugs I find that I havnt seen reported but Im not going to be a beta tester.
I just want you to know that I feel cheated. I consider the game to be an unfinished product but I acknowledge that im a d*** about it

That will be the end of it. You have it in writing now [:D]

If the game reaches its full potential Ill prob try to get everybody I know to buy it since im also very vocal about games I think deserve the praise. Ill prob just have to add in the fact about waiting for a demo when purchasing from matrix Not that it ll make any kind of sales difference but.. well whatever. Just realize Im not hellbent on making matrix look bad for kicks.

And yes I do speak like that in real life. Maybe a reason I don't have many friends huh? [;)]
But the ones I do have would agree with me ^^

[Okim]

You know, after reading your long conversation i feel that i should note that i support Sign.

Well, i may be less vocal and aggressive (sorry, Sign), but i also find it unacceptable for a developer to release something that has so many errors no matter how good and experienced a developer is or is not. Each developer should understand that people are forced to trust their words about the game, especially those who do not release any demos or other ways to try it (trial versions etc.). You can always return a broken toaster to the shop where you`ve bought it when it is clear that this is a production problem, but once you paid for a game you can never get a refund for it no matter the reason (correct me if i am wrong).

Currently this game is not in a playable condition i was expecting it to be. The game that i started long ago and wrote a report about it is no longer playable as it had a persistent crash. Another two games with 1.02 also turned out to be unplayable. A game that i have started with 1.03 had a crash with world annihilator and once again i was unable to finish it - this was the most frustrating as i was the major faction and only a couple of years was left before the game should have ended normally. Currently i`m not starting any new games as i now prefer to read the forums first. There are once again some new crash reports in 1.04b2...

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to fix it - not all developers are paying so much attention to the community and the future of the games they produce. I`m aware of how difficult it is to make everything work and how it is difficult to test and check everything, but i still think that devs should have tested it a bit more longer.

I will patiently wait for a stable update and hope that this wont let us all wait for too long.

[Kriegsspieler]

I wonder if all of this "I'm so disappointed" chatter could be shifted over to another thread, so this one could be used to do something useful, like report issues with, and comments on, the latest version of the beta.
(This is why I prefer to be part of closed betas . . . . [8|] )

[Sliverine]

First off, i would agree that this game release was based on a business model. After all, the real world is driven by none other then simple economics. Why hold the game in for one more year of inhouse testing and bugfixing when you can release it, get one full year of feedback that you could never have achieved with just inhouse testing and best of all, earn one years worth of additional profit?

However, Sigh is only looking at this aspect. While the above does hold true, it is not representative of an economics model on the whole. Releasing a broken game can, contrary to popular belief, actually cause support for the game to die off as people become too disillusioned with constant bugs and crashes and just decide to play something else. A good example of this would be MoO3 which was rushed.

So while this game was indeed released with economics in mind (hence the breakage) and for the reasons previously stated, it is entirely wrong to assume that this is an unorthodox business model to take (as what Sigh is suggesting). There is no 'cheating' involved. While it is true that this game was released with teething problems, the constant work on fixing the game shows that effort is still being put into it. Working on a game for 3 years before release and working on it for 2 years, after which u release it and continue work on it for one more year to fix bugs amounts to the same amount of work, just increased productivity at the cost of possibly pissing fanboys off resulting in diminished returns. Cheating is when you release an unfinished game and under the premise of fixing any additional bugs, market it as a finished product and subsequently, once you have reached your quota, just close shop and start on a new project is called cheating.

[Erik Rutins]

I would just like to be clear on the fact that it's fair to say that we missed too many issues in final testing. It's not fair to assume that we released knowing that for some systems and some playstyles, there would be very severe issues. Virtually everything that ended up causing a crash or having a severe issue after release was something that was tested and found working at various points pre-release.

A lot of the at-release bugs were due to some optimizations that happened fairly late and I think the main mistake we made was in not bringing in some additional testers about a month before release to do a final check with fresh eyes. I missed these myself. The release version was stable for me on our test systems (as it was for many customers) because of both the system configuration and also because of my playstyle.

I willingly accept blame and responsibility for letting so many issues get through testing, but I will not accept any implication that we deliberately released with those issues in order to make the public test for us.

I also think that another thread is a better place for this, but I really think it's important to note that we understand that while some customers are having a great time and playing for hours without a single problem, others are still unhappy and the game doesn't work for their playstyle. We get it and we're working on it.

[Erik Rutins]

Okim,

The world destroyer turned out to be a huge source of very nasty bugs. I used this myself without issues pre-release, but at some point it broke, very badly and we didn't catch that before the release. My apologies that it messed up your game. I believe it's working fine now. Please give things another try when 1.0.4 goes official. I really enjoyed your AAR and would hope that we can get things working to your satisfaction.

Regards,

- Erik

[deanco2]

5. Added maximum weapons energy use to Design screen (top of Weapons panel) so that you can compare reactor power output to optimize military designs

A step in the right direction, but it could be better.

Why can this not be expressed by a simple + or - number?

(energy surplus) - (max weapons energy use) = (+ or - so much 'extra' energy)

If there is a reason to keep those 2 numbers separate (and in different areas of the screen), I can't see it.

Make the text green if positive, red if negative, and the player can see at a glance if his design is over or underpowered.

At least, put the 2 numbers next to each other in the interface. I never woulda noticed it if I didn't look hard for it.

[MirabelleBenou]

Just want to say I launched a new game today with 1.04b2 and I enjoy it a lot

Despites the bugs and problems since the release, thanks a lot for a great game and your support.

[Druthlen]

Firstly this is not a "broken game" Where are the crashs that you speak off???? I have played over 30 hrs...30 HRS of game play. not 10 mins but 30 hrs and on 1.01 2 crashes. 102 and beyond 0 crashes. I have to say wtf is wrong with your computer and setup???? Seriously sounds like user error on my end. It sounds like you need to format and reinstall and dont go to naughty websites that give you viruses and fk up your computer. Honestly that is 90 % of computer errors; viruses caught surfing p**n.


Druthlen

[Erik Rutins]

Please let's not drag this conversation down into the dirt. This is a family forum and we can handle criticism, even if we disagree with it in tone or degree.

As I said above, we know that the game is working fine for many customer (and that makes us very happy!), we also know that it still needs work in some areas and for some playstyles. We are confident and committed to continuing to fix and improve - Distant Worlds has a bright future and I hope you will all stick around for the ride.

I appreciate expressions of support and positive reports, I just don't want to see customers arguing with each other. Just let us know about your play experience and trust that we can handle any negativity.

[Baleur]

ORIGINAL: Sigh

And im not uploading anything. There are enough of you who like the feeling of being involved. Keep paying to be part of the team. It seems like a great business model.. But one that I and some other developers will never adapt.

and for the record there are plenty of people online saying matrix sells broken games (at release.. the consensus is that they do fix them up). The people here who are obviously biased do not prove me wrong.

lol @ "business model".
And for the record, ALL pc game developers sell broken games. Its the sad decline of pc gaming. Not because the games suck or are uninteresting, but because the devs always simply release them unfinished. They cant do that with console games, since what you get is what you play, internet connection or not, no patches neccessary for a flawless experience.

This is also why i'm spending more and more time on my 360 than with pc games.
So dont be naive in thinking Matrix is the only developer that does this. They all do, and they are all equally responsible for this.
Remember Dawn of War 2 at launch? Or Silent Hunter 5? Or C&C3-C&C4-RA2? Or Empire Total War? Or Space Empires V?
Age of Conan? Vanguard? Supreme Commander 2? All horribly broken, buggy, worthless netcode or unplayable.
They all do it, big multi-million dollar developers, or small indie developers. Though the indie devs are much better at releasing playable games.

AI War, Distant Worlds, Mount & Blade, the games i play the most right now, all small-budget games.
And all of them more finished than multi-million dollar pieces of junk (Spore, i'm looking at you, for ruining my hopes lol).

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Baleur
And for the record, ALL pc game developers sell broken games. Its the sad decline of pc gaming. Not because the games suck or are uninteresting, but because the devs always simply release them unfinished. They cant do that with console games, since what you get is what you play, internet connection or not, no patches neccessary for a flawless experience.

I think there's a bit of cause and effect confusion in this statement though. While this is far from the whole story with PC games, developing for a single static platform (like a console) where you have exactly the same setup as every single customer... the same hardware, the same OS and no extra third party software or driver differences to account for, is a heck of a lot nicer in terms of being able to reproduce and test for bugs.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Druthlen

Firstly this is not a "broken game" Where are the crashs that you speak off???? I have played over 30 hrs...30 HRS of game play. not 10 mins but 30 hrs and on 1.01 2 crashes. 102 and beyond 0 crashes. I have to say wtf is wrong with your computer and setup???? Seriously sounds like user error on my end. It sounds like you need to format and reinstall and dont go to naughty websites that give you viruses and fk up your computer. Honestly that is 90 % of computer errors; viruses caught surfing p**n.


Druthlen

This is patently ridiculous.

90% of game crashes are caused by slight differences in graphics cards and video drivers. You can confirm this by simply looking at error logs.

[Igard]

I've got an error the same as fabio80mi reported earlier. I've clocked around 5 hours playing time on beta 1.0.4-2 and this only happened once.

I had sent a colony ship to an indie planet that I knew was populated. The ship exited hyperspace next to the planet, but strangely, I was given a pop-up informing me that we had discovered an independant colony. The crash occured as soon as I clicked go to event location.

Here's a screeny of the error window:-

[Erik Rutins]

Thanks for the report, we do have a few more issues to sort out with Beta 2 and this is one of them. There will be a Beta 3, but we want to make some more economy balance tweaks as well first.

[Igard]

Good to hear, Erik. The error aside, this update is a huge improvement in terms of streamlining the gameplay.[:)]

EDIT: Just realised this should have been on the tech support forums!

[Sliverine]

oh its the DateTime issue again...lol...