proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

[Bartje]

Right now unique tech trading is immersion breaking because the AI opponents will simply offer it for a huge amount of money (do they think we are that rich? How dumb are they? --> Immersion break)

In order to make this more realistic / immersive several simple changes would alter this dynamic completely while making the game far more "natural" and providing a "diplomatic incentive". (argh, let's be friends matey! I'll get that raciall tech eventually!)


Proposing a sale of racially unique super secret technology to a race you've just met is just plain stupid.

Imagine the United states trying to sell nuclear weapons to the newly founded states of Kaberaki-Stan in central asia for 50 trillion dollars.

This makes no sense and in fact just tells you as a player that the Computer doesn't know what its doing, instead of regarding them as a logcial and natural part of the Distant worlds universe. (as in: I'm a part of the natural word that is the "Distant Worlds" Universe, and hey, there are other creatures that are part of this world too! They even know how to act intelligently! Awesome!! ---> Player gets immersed into the DW Universe)


**update**

Change 0:
Racial tech should be Unique and confer a characteristic advantage on the race of origin. (Better than regular tech)

**end update**


Change 1:
The AI should only trade racially unique tech with you if it implicitly trusts you (like the European & US relationship). Perhaps even only if it implicitly trusts you and you are allied.


Change 2:
The AI should only trade tech if it really believes you have the wealth to afford it. (why bother if you know its highly unlikely?)


Change 3:
If there is a state of implicit trust / alliance or friendship etc.. then it would make sense if the AI not only offers its own unique technology but also asks the player to share his.

This could take the form of a unique tech swapping agreement. (instead of monetary value)

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Bartje
Right now unique tech trading is immersion breaking because the AI opponents will simply offer it for a huge amount of money (do they think we are that rich? How dumb are they? --> Immersion break)

Actually, I am that rich in late games... and I often buy those techs for millions in cash.

Proposing a sale of racially unique super secret technology to a race you've just met is just plain stupid.

Only if you don't get a good deal for it, most racial techs are over rated and are inferior to other high end tech. They are also massively overpriced, and besides which, a massive amount of money means the AI can use it then buy tech from all other empires...
But it should ask for tech in exchange AND money... but focus on tech... if the AI can get all tech from you for their racial tech, then its a good deal for them.

Imagine the United states trying to sell nuclear weapons to the newly founded states of Kaberaki-Stan in central asia for 50 trillion dollars.

Other way around... Imagine the newly founded states of kaberaki-stan offering to sell a slightly cleaner nuke to an already nuclear united states for 50 trillion dollars...
it makes perfect sense for a tiny race to sell something for such a massive amount of money.

I think the AI simply need to ONLY make an offer you can afford... that is, it comes up with an offer, then checks to see if you have the cash, if you don't it doesn't offer it to you, if you do, it does.

Change 1:
The AI should only trade racially unique tech with you if it implicitly trusts you (like the European & US relationship). Perhaps even only if it implicitly trusts you and you are allied.

That would be pretty dumb of them to pass up golden opportunities just because they are not as close to you. Which they already do.

Change 2:
The AI should only trade tech if it really believes you have the wealth to afford it. (why bother if you know its highly unlikely?)

I totally agree, it shouldn't make an offer you can't afford.

Change 3:
If there is a state of implicit trust / alliance or friendship etc.. then it would make sense if the AI not only offers its own unique technology but also asks the player to share his.

This could take the form of a unique tech swapping agreement. (instead of monetary value)

I do agree with that. Swapping racial tech would benefit both sides.

[Bartje]

-Actually, I am that rich in late games... and I often buy those techs for millions in cash.

And would you sell your own for millions in cash? I most definitaly would not give up a unique advantage, it is silly because it permanently reduces my advantage in that area compared to the race I sell it too. Especially so if that race is more powerful than I am.


-it makes perfect sense for a tiny race to sell something for such a massive amount of money.

It does but not if it is a unique technology. The advantage that the unique tech gives is far greater game-wise than any amount of money. It is foolish of the AI to trade it away so lightly, especially since it may be used against you later on.

For example: I sincerely doubt it either russia or the US would trade a new kind of weapon of mass destruction with anyone. Just like any smaller fictional country would not trade it to a super power just for monetary gain. Instead you would use that tech to try and become the new superpower, not strenghten a potential rival.


-That would be pretty dumb of them to pass up golden opportunities just because they are not as close to you. Which they already do.

It would be dumb of the computer player to identify this as an oppertunity. Selling unique tech to anyone that is not likely to stay your friend is silly. Why sell unique tech that may be used against you, even if only indirectly. You are effectively weakening your own advantages.

Is this an oppertunity to make money? Yes, But is this an oppertunity to become more powerful, perhaps a superpower? Certainly not, Selling this tech is more likely to strengthen a Rival Empire than the money will strenghten us.


-I do agree with that. Swapping racial tech would benefit both sides.

Certainly, because the AI should not lightly trade such tech. A player woudn't, at least, I woudn't.


Let me turn around the argument:

Does anyone think it is worth the money to sell racial tech to a computer player? (given that the computer has enough money and interest)

Would you give up your unique advantage and strenght to a potential adversary in exchange for a large sum of money?

I woudn't, but if you would, why? In what situation ?

Perhaps if you are bankrupt? (That would make sense for the AI to do as well! Greece should sell its racial tech too!!)

[taltamir]

-Actually, I am that rich in late games... and I often buy those techs for millions in cash.

And would you sell your own for millions in cash? I most definitaly would not give up a unique advantage, it is silly because it permanently reduces my advantage in that area compared to the race I sell it too. Especially so if that race is more powerful than I am.

That entirely depends on my situation, but usually yes I would. The benefits of millions in cash far outweigh the benefits of holding on to it... furthermore, if there are other races that share your unique tech, then they are likely to sell those as well. This means that by being the one who sells it, you are the one who gets millions in cash.

-it makes perfect sense for a tiny race to sell something for such a massive amount of money.

It does but not if it is a unique technology. The advantage that the unique tech gives is far greater game-wise than any amount of money. It is foolish of the AI to trade it away so lightly, especially since it may be used against you later on.

Actually, the benefit of a unique tech is only when you BUY it... because it gives you all other tech in that field...
Most racial techs are actually INFERIOR to regular tech.
For example, the shakur firestorm torpedo sucks, it has the worst range of any torpedo.
The megatron Z5? it is the most expensive shield, compared to the second highest tech shield? it has 1.5 recharge a second vs 1.3 of non racial tech shield, but its actual shield value is only 180 compared to 600 or maybe it was 800?
anyways, its ridiculously weaker.
And the "best" drive? it improves your speed from 1800 to 1840... but it increases the passive power consumption from 2 to 3, and increases the active power consumption from 5 to 7... it is significantly less efficient and an inferior drive all around...
Only half the racial techs are actually the best, and even then they are far from being as awesome as you think they are... they are way overpriced.

-That would be pretty dumb of them to pass up golden opportunities just because they are not as close to you. Which they already do.

It would be dumb of the computer player to identify this as an oppertunity. Selling unique tech to anyone that is not likely to stay your friend is silly. Why sell unique tech that may be used against you, even if only indirectly. You are effectively weakening your own advantages.

Because of what you get in return... Imagine if we meet an alien race today that is willing to give us teleporters, warp drives, space construction tech, fission reactor tech, weapons we cannot dream of, the ability to terraform, and the yearly accumulated wealth of 300 planets... all in exchange for ONE technology... it will completely jump start out economy and it is always a good deal.
Could you make the trade with the AI and then immediately invade it? yes, yes you could... but if you don't then it is now able to build up and invade others around it and rapidly expand.

-I do agree with that. Swapping racial tech would benefit both sides.

Certainly, because the AI should not lightly trade such tech. A player woudn't, at least, I woudn't.

Because you are hung up over the uniqueness of it. You are perfectly capable of conquering the galaxy without it.

Let me turn around the argument:

Does anyone think it is worth the money to sell racial tech to a computer player? (given that the computer has enough money and interest)

Would you give up your unique advantage and strenght to a potential adversary in exchange for a large sum of money?

I woudn't, but if you would, why? In what situation ?

Perhaps if you are bankrupt? (That would make sense for the AI to do as well! Greece should sell its racial tech too!!)

The only time I would NOT sell it is when I am super rich and the dominant force in the galaxy... If I am NOT the most powerful empire in the galaxy I would sell it, because I could use the wealth to buy up ALL the tech that others have and I don't, and build massive fleets, massive colonization projects, etc... and BECOME the dominant force in the galaxy.

[Bartje]

Because you are hung up over the uniqueness of it. You are perfectly capable of conquering the galaxy without it.

You are correct, I assumed Racial tech was better than regular tech and provided a racial advantage.

If this is not the case then you are competely correct! Thank you for pointing this out

But then the prices should be adjusted. What use is paying so much for something inferior to what you have? This merely shows the AI has no comprehension of markret dynamics.

It would make far more sense for the AI to give it to you for $1 in the hope that you waste your research points researching something that has less effective value than normal tech. It would be delaying tactic.

I think Racial tech is supposed to be unique and powerful because of the price the AI attaches to it. This seems to be a flaw in game balancing at the moment?

[Krippakrull]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Because you are hung up over the uniqueness of it. You are perfectly capable of conquering the galaxy without it.

You are correct, I assumed Racial tech was better than regular tech and provided a racial advantage.

If this is not the case then you are competely correct! Thank you for pointing this out

But then the prices should be adjusted. What use is paying so much for something inferior to what you have? This merely shows the AI has no comprehension of markret dynamics.

It would make far more sense for the AI to give it to you for $1 in the hope that you waste your research points researching something that has less effective value than normal tech. It would be delaying tactic.

I think Racial tech is supposed to be unique and powerful because of the price the AI attaches to it. This seems to be a flaw in game balancing at the moment?

Well, it *does* offer you every tech leading up to it and if you are far behind in that tech area getting the last tech and every tech leading up to it is pretty huge, IMO.

[Bartje]

I didn't think of that, how does that impact the situation...

It explains part of the cost I think, but it still seems logical that racial tech gives something of an edge instead of a penalty.

If anyting racial tech is a great tool to give races a unique feeling, something any game should aspire to have because it greatly enhances gameplay and replayability.


Unique and advantagous racial tech probably also provides more immersion because it creates a certain "national & natural" character for a given race. Something which identifies each race as being diffrent "living beings" within the DW universe instead of being computer opponents with a diffrent picture, shipset & attitude set.

Especially so if the unique technology ties into their racial background and past. This is what I think was being aimed for in DW. (Is this true Erik?)

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

-Actually, I am that rich in late games... and I often buy those techs for millions in cash.

And would you sell your own for millions in cash? I most definitaly would not give up a unique advantage, it is silly because it permanently reduces my advantage in that area compared to the race I sell it too. Especially so if that race is more powerful than I am.

Here's the kicker: The racial techs aren't unique. They're usually at the very end of the tech tree, but they are not unique, and you do not actually lose out on something special by selling it, especially if you can get ludicrous cash for it. There are a few interesting caveats with it, but they aren't uniques.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

It does but not if it is a unique technology. The advantage that the unique tech gives is far greater game-wise than any amount of money. It is foolish of the AI to trade it away so lightly, especially since it may be used against you later on.

But that's the thing: They're NOT UNIQUE. They're just at the very end of the tech tree. In fact, to the AI, sometimes they are a footbullet. I remember in MOO2, the Quantum Detonator technology was a rare piece of unique tech you could only get from special events (jacking an Antaran, finding Orion). But the moment I got that thing, I would turn around and immediately sell it to every AI for any price. I would even give it away for free. Why? Because that technology was such an awesome footbullet in the hands of the AI: He would equip it on all his ships, apparently out of fear that I would steal them, which resulted in AWESOME CHAIN EXPLOSIONS.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

It would be dumb of the computer player to identify this as an oppertunity. Selling unique tech to anyone that is not likely to stay your friend is silly. Why sell unique tech that may be used against you, even if only indirectly. You are effectively weakening your own advantages.

Because he gets ONE MILLION DOLLARS, without having to hold the world ransom. If someone can actually afford that EARLY, that is a lot of money. By late game, ONE MILLION DOLLARS isn't a lot of money anymore, but by then, the tech isn't very valuable anymore, either.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Is this an oppertunity to make money? Yes, But is this an oppertunity to become more powerful, perhaps a superpower? Certainly not, Selling this tech is more likely to strengthen a Rival Empire than the money will strenghten us.

Depending on the tech and time, I would totally sell it. It all comes down to: Do I still need ONE MILLION DOLLARS? If so, HELL YES.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Certainly, because the AI should not lightly trade such tech. A player woudn't, at least, I woudn't.

I would, if offered a similarly valuable racial tech (AI declines this deal) or maybe ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Does anyone think it is worth the money to sell racial tech to a computer player? (given that the computer has enough money and interest)

I have never encountered an AI that actually *HAD* ONE MILLION DOLLARS that I didn't give him in the first place.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Would you give up your unique advantage and strenght to a potential adversary in exchange for a large sum of money?

Yes. Sometimes the unique advantage isn't even an advantage. Whereas ONE MILLION DOLLARS may very well be a useful advantage. For instance, would I sell the NovaCore for ONE MILLION DOLLARS? Hell yes. Either I can get ONE MILLION DOLLARS, or I can get the AI to shoot himself in the foot with it. Would I sell the Firestorm? Due to the max-tree characteristic, no. Would I sell the Megatron? By late-mid, yes: See Footbullet Effect.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

I woudn't, but if you would, why? In what situation ?

I would sell it under the circumstances that I need ONE MILLION DOLLARS or I can get the AI to shoot himself in the foot with it. If the max-tech-effect was removed, the attraction of ONE MILLION DOLLARS would grow as objections to it shrink. The AI having one more piece of tech isn't going to hurt me as much as having ONE MILLION DOLLARS can help.

[Bartje]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

I didn't think of that, how does that impact the situation...

It explains part of the cost I think, but it still seems logical that racial tech gives something of an edge instead of a penalty.

If anyting racial tech is a great tool to give races a unique feeling, something any game should aspire to have because it greatly enhances gameplay and replayability.


Unique and advantagous racial tech probably also provides more immersion because it creates a certain "national & natural" character for a given race. Something which identifies each race as being diffrent "living beings" within the DW universe instead of being computer opponents with a diffrent picture, shipset & attitude set.

Especially so if the unique technology ties into their racial background and past. This is what I think was being aimed for in DW. (Is this true Erik?)

I still feel Racial tech should be unique, flavor wise and advantagous.

Why do you disagree Fishman? Do you disagree?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Krippakrull

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Because you are hung up over the uniqueness of it. You are perfectly capable of conquering the galaxy without it.

You are correct, I assumed Racial tech was better than regular tech and provided a racial advantage.

If this is not the case then you are competely correct! Thank you for pointing this out

But then the prices should be adjusted. What use is paying so much for something inferior to what you have? This merely shows the AI has no comprehension of markret dynamics.

It would make far more sense for the AI to give it to you for $1 in the hope that you waste your research points researching something that has less effective value than normal tech. It would be delaying tactic.

I think Racial tech is supposed to be unique and powerful because of the price the AI attaches to it. This seems to be a flaw in game balancing at the moment?

Well, it *does* offer you every tech leading up to it and if you are far behind in that tech area getting the last tech and every tech leading up to it is pretty huge, IMO.

Exactly!
the repair bot racial tech? (actually that one IS the best repair bot tech)... it gives you the ability to colonize desert and marshy planets... the racial ECM tech? it gives you the best aiming computers (non racial) and the highest level trading hub (also non racial)... funny thing, the races themselves don't have it.
Also, I managed to research a racial tech... i had my research show that shields are completeled with "none" being researched... then suddenly "our scientists invented megaton Z4 shields" (the racial tech shield)... of course, then all my ship designs upgraded to it making them more expensive and dropping their shields to 1/4th what they were before

I think racial tech should not be part of the normal tech tree, but by themselves... and that they should be complementary... for example, megatron Z4 should not be a shield component, but a shield recharger... you can only have ONE of those per ship and it increases shield recharge rate by 50% (regardless of what your base recharge rate is).

[Bartje]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Krippakrull

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Because you are hung up over the uniqueness of it. You are perfectly capable of conquering the galaxy without it.

You are correct, I assumed Racial tech was better than regular tech and provided a racial advantage.

If this is not the case then you are competely correct! Thank you for pointing this out

But then the prices should be adjusted. What use is paying so much for something inferior to what you have? This merely shows the AI has no comprehension of markret dynamics.

It would make far more sense for the AI to give it to you for $1 in the hope that you waste your research points researching something that has less effective value than normal tech. It would be delaying tactic.

I think Racial tech is supposed to be unique and powerful because of the price the AI attaches to it. This seems to be a flaw in game balancing at the moment?

Well, it *does* offer you every tech leading up to it and if you are far behind in that tech area getting the last tech and every tech leading up to it is pretty huge, IMO.

Exactly!
the repair bot racial tech? (actually that one IS the best repair bot tech)... it gives you the ability to colonize desert and marshy planets... the racial ECM tech? it gives you the best aiming computers (non racial) and the highest level trading hub (also non racial)... funny thing, the races themselves don't have it.
Also, I managed to research a racial tech... i had my research show that shields are completeled with "none" being researched... then suddenly "our scientists invented megaton Z4 shields" (the racial tech shield)... of course, then all my ship designs upgraded to it making them more expensive and dropping their shields to 1/4th what they were before

I think racial tech should not be part of the normal tech tree, but by themselves... and that they should be complementary... for example, megatron Z4 should not be a shield component, but a shield recharger... you can only have ONE of those per ship and it increases shield recharge rate by 50% (regardless of what your base recharge rate is).

Exactly that would be great step in the right direction!

It would certainly make fighting them a lot more challenging and unique!

[Fishman]

If the Z4 was a mere shield recharger, it would become really nice in the late game, but give absolutely no worthwhile advantage in the beginning. All the racial techs are aimed at giving you some kind of advantage in the beginning. Since the Zenox themselves suck as a race and have no worthwhile attributes, their special is a technolergy, which, in the beginning of the game, makes their ships basically invulnerable, a significant advantage as no one can kill you! If it merely gave you +50% recharge, it would provide no advantage at all because the starting shields have no recharge worth speaking of, and 50% of squat is still squat. The fact that it has best recharge rate in the game, regardless of its magnitude, makes it so you can pump the recharge rate and make a ship capable of tanking through anything the AI can throw at it for some time, a completely invulnerable ship. This advantage fades as weapons become more powerful, but its point is what it gives you at the beginning. Most of the Races of Sucky Statness have a special technolergy that makes them not suck so much, or even awesome. Like the Dhayut: All their attributes stink horribly, but the drive alone sells them, even though it's not truly unique.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

I still feel Racial tech should be unique, flavor wise and advantagous.

Why do you disagree Fishman? Do you disagree?

I have no opinion on this matter. My statement is merely that, as it is, the racial techs are not unique and there is therefore no reason that a player should be completely unwilling to ever part with it for any price.

[Bartje]

But doesn't that mean you suck in the late game then? Woudn't it be better gameplay if this bonus is more "spread out" over the entire game instead of just in the beginning?

Perhaps a racial tech upgrade or research field instead of normal research?

Does the trade value decrease as the game progresses???

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

But doesn't that mean you suck in the late game then?

No. If you played your cards right, the benefit you derive from having it from the beginning will make you a contender in the late game, even without it. It's like Civ. The Praetorians may become an obsolete unit that leaves Rome using the same generic stuff everyone else has, but that doesn't mean they aren't easily among the best(or even THE best) units in the game.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Woudn't it be better gameplay if this bonus is more "spread out" over the entire game instead of just in the beginning?

Better? Different, maybe. But not necessarily better or worse.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Perhaps a racial tech upgrade or research field instead of normal research?

Other games do this. It is valid, but not the only way.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Does the trade value decrease as the game progresses???

The offered trade value tends to change over time from the AI's perceived inflation. Depending on how things go, the amount demanded is usually "more than you have". As far as I can tell, the AI tends to make these offers mostly to lord it over you, as the amount of cash demanded tends to be impossible. By the time it *IS* possible, if it ever happens, you are probably doing so much better than he is that he is offering something of little long-term value to you, for what is, to him, a lot of money.

[Bartje]

OOooh its making the offer to lord over me, I didn't quite get that intetion.

What a strange kind of diplomacy, does the attempted lording over me affect relations between us as well?

[ASHBERY76]

I would never trade a unique tech and lose that massive strategic ability and hence neither should the A.I.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I would never trade a unique tech and lose that massive strategic ability and hence neither should the A.I.

I would...if I could get another unique tech I liked as much or more for it. But we're not talking about unique techs, just something far ahead on the tech tree. It's just Adamantium Armor, not Xentronium. I can't think of anything I'd trade Xentronium for, but I'd sell Adamantium for a good price.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

OOooh its making the offer to lord over me, I didn't quite get that intetion.

Yeah, the AI in GalCiv 2 does that, too, only less subtly: They actually outright go, "Neener neener, look what we have and you don't, nyah!", and don't actually pretend to offer to sell it at all.

ORIGINAL: Bartje

What a strange kind of diplomacy, does the attempted lording over me affect relations between us as well?

It might. Are you somewhat incensed by this? Do you feel the urge to beat it out of him? Or maybe intimidated by its presence? Or maybe you're thinking of putting off that war and saving more money so you can buy it the next time he offers? Then yes, it is definitely affecting your relations. Not everything in a relationship is a one-sided AI number.

[Bartje]

So does it only do this if wants to antagonize me or is insecure and needs a pat on the back?
 
Are all computers with racial tech out to antagonize me then?
 
It doesn't quite seem to fit in the puzzle.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

So does it only do this if wants to antagonize me or is insecure and needs a pat on the back?

I dunno. How are you reacting to it? Are you more antagonized, or more inclined to cut back on military expenditures so you will have enough money next time?

[Bartje]

Neither, I didn't understand what it was doing until you just told me. I used to just ignore it figuring it was being silly.