OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

[PyleDriver]

Bob I should have said I bet I have it isolated by mid October. You are right that the AI has become nasty with suprises..

[karonagames]

Yes, I agree with that.

[PyleDriver]

(BAR) This was a tough one...Model will cross the Tveritsa River, but what to do with Armin's corps, it's so powerfull...Hum...I did a fade across the Shlina River with Tot SS to draw reserves. That didn't work. I want the Valdai Hills secure, but I need Models left covered...I have looked at this screen for an hour now...Truth is the party is in Moscow and Model is going to sack Kalinin, and Armin will be on his left..

[ComradeP]

Seems the AI went somewhat braindead again.

-No defensive perimeter around Voronezh. The units not in Voronezh are simply exposed for no defensive benefit.
-Guarding Voronezh with one or more Tank Corps doesn't make any sense at all.
-The "line" between Tambov and Ryazan looks like Swiss cheese. I would almost expect the AI to place a sign saying "Herzlich Willkommen in Ryazan" in the city.
-The "line" in Hoth's area is partially on the wrong side of the major river.

If I were the AI, I might even be tempted to pull back to a river line in the greater Tambov area. Currently, the AI is making your pockets for you.

[janh]

What are the Blizzard rules?  In WiR it was just really gamey to give the Russians so much advantage.  I would have preferred to see the Russian get some supply bonus and lower supply and mobility for the Germans, but just making them helpless in winter 41 was kind of stupid.  I never liked that approach, seemed a bit like a no-brainer developed to give a stupid AI an edge.  How have the rules evolved since then?

[ComradeP]

From elmo's AAR:

Ice level in zone 4 is 4 and it's 5 or above in the other three zones so most rivers are frozen solid and lose their defensive benefit (bad news for me). There are several First Winter rules in effect for each Blizzard turn from Dec 41 through March 42. Non-Finnish Axis units have their combat values divided by three are more likely to retreat in combat and less likely to cause Soviet units to retreat. Soviets (and Finns) have their combat values doubled to reflect first winter surprise and their better preparedness. First Winter rules can be mitigated somewhat in tows, cities, and urban areas so I moved a number of units off the front line and into reserve in populated areas. Supply is adversely affected in certain areas of the map during these blizzard turns. There is additional attrition for non-Finnish Axis units. I "think" mountain units get a break from some of these special rules but I'm not seeing that in the manual right now.

That is, however, for the first winter (1941-1942) only, Pyledriver seems to imply that the penalties for the non-Finnish Axis units/bonuses for the Finns and Soviets are less substantial in blizzard conditions in the other winters.

[PyleDriver]

OK kids, one more time. S&T here only on this AAR. Q&A goes on the Q&A thread please...This is getting like a bad record that skips over and over and over agian...

[PyleDriver]

Now back to the game... Comrade I really think the AI did a decient job near Voronezh. It left enough there to be a headache and formed a right flank on Kleist...

[Zorch]

PyleDriver, watch your step entering Moscow...the Russians were prepared to blow up the city.

Wartime bomb found at Bolshoi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2097813.stm

[ComradeP]

Comrade I really think the AI did a decient job near Voronezh

Doesn't armour get some sort of penalty in a city? Why would anyone defend a city with a Tank Corps, or possibly more than one?

It just seems strange to see infantry in the open and tanks in the city.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

PyleDriver, watch your step entering Moscow...the Russians were prepared to blow up the city.

Wartime bomb found at Bolshoi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2097813.stm

Ha ha, I like the part in the article of the Germans 'besieging' the city!

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver


Well Hoth tried and there was reserves pouring in like flies. The Tula pocket looks hopeless, and my right is still my concern. I did had some good victories south of the Oka and we will press on...Oh and what about Kleist?...





(BAR) Hoth took some hits on is left, but still stand firm. The 17th and 12th PzD's in rebild recieved alot of new armor...

Comparing these two screenshots of Hoth's advance around Tula, I'm suprised to hear and see they were reinforced that much/quickly in one weeks time since they are at the tip of the spear. A bit at odds to my way of thinking how operations and logistics were conducted.

[PyleDriver]

Ron you should know alot of what is seen in the first (ss) is fatuge. Keeping those railheads close did bring in alot of stuff in the second (ss)...So there is a combo here of what you see...

[Ron]

Perhaps, but I am questioning the operational mechanics and capabilities of the game. Hoth's Army has been in offensive attritional combat since about the end of June, about two months and there has been no breakthrough. How much longer can that carry on without respite?

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Ron

Perhaps, but I am questioning the operational mechanics and capabilities of the game. Hoth's Army has been in offensive attritional combat since about the end of June, about two months and there has been no breakthrough. How much longer can that carry on without respite?

It seems to me also the antithesis of what Germany was capable of more of a slog than artful Blitzkreig. It Looks like alot of fun none the less but the detail appears to have been given artistic license

[Joel Billings]

I don't know, sounds right to me. For the first few months of the German attacks in the summer of 42, there were many attempts at making pockets, none of which paid off as big as they did in 42. Lots of slogging and some smaller pockets with lots of Soviet attempts at counterattacks. Seems like what's going on in Jon's game, just in different areas. The attrition all depends on the ratio of losses. If it's 10 to 1 like in 41, then it will be good for Jon. If it's 3 to 1 then it will wear him down, and the advantage in the quality of the units will be reduced. I haven't seen a losses screen recently, but that would be interesting info to see.

[Flaviusx]

Smirfy, if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later. Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly. Part of the reason I'm so skeptical of Pyledriver's strategy is precisely because I'm certain it wouldn't have worked in real life. (However, it would have been better than the Stalingrad fiasco.)
 
If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.
 
Working as intended. The game is doing more than a reasonable job of simulating the strategy in question. If you don't like the strategy, that's a different story.

[Helpless]

if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Absolutely.

One small note. It is still in alpha including the scenario data as well.

[Flaviusx]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am hugely impressed with the game as is. Even in the Alpha state.
 
As much as I would love to get my hands on it now, it's wonderful to see a game designer like Grigsby willing to polish this thing to diamond perfection. He could actually release it in something like its present state and it would still be a very good game, but he's not going to settle for second best.
 
That is so rare in the gaming industry nowadays.
 
This is going to be the definitive computer wargame on the subject for many years. A true classic.

[Smirfy]

Smirfy, if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later. Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly. Part of the reason I'm so skeptical of Pyledriver's strategy is precisely because I'm certain it wouldn't have worked in real life. (However, it would have been better than the Stalingrad fiasco.)

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Working as intended. The game is doing more than a reasonable job of simulating the strategy in question. If you don't like the strategy, that's a different story.

I think you are echcoing what I am saying although it looks alot of fun I'm kinda amazed the strategy is viable for the Germans in 42