OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

[Helpless]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am hugely impressed with the game as is. Even in the Alpha state.
..

Just for the record - all constructive critics is very welcomed and in fact my words on Jon's initial strategy were exactly as yours [:)]

[PyleDriver]

I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

[freeboy]

we will see! lol
it sure is interesting seeing how far you have come!!! One thing an Ia will leave some holes that a competent human would never due, I await your first 42 as German AAR PUBLIC against a human oponent..
thank you for takingthe time to show us all these details...

[wurger54]

[quote]

if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Absolutely.[quote]


Been watching from the wings... and am reading 'Death of the Wehrmacht'. Tend to agree here. [:D] Although the game looks like it is very near the mark. [8D]

[ComradeP]

It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later.

"Defended" as in: the frontline next to the German lines was fortified. Had the Germans tried to attack Moscow or Kursk through the back door (by attacking the Soviet lines North and South of the area, and then attacking from the East, trapping the defenders in a pincer movement), they would not have faced anything coming close to the in-depth defences at Kursk. At Kursk, the Germans were attacking straight into prepared defences, designed to prevent exactly what they were doing. The same goes for Moscow: the vast majority of the defences were concentrated on the 1941 German path of advance. An attack on Moscow from the East would not have faced comparable fixed defences to an attack from the West.

Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly.

That's also the thing the Germans could've exploited. Stalin was expecting Moscow to be attacked from the West, like it was in 1941. Fall Blau was initially seen as a feint, until it was clear the Germans were serious. If the Germans don't attack from the West, the Soviet reserves would be entirely out of position to counter it, which is why Pyledriver's moves might've worked. Of course, a human player will probably not have Stalin's fixation on one part of the front.

[Flaviusx]

Stalin had 10 reserve armies set aside in depth and in echelon around Moscow, not just piled up in the front facing directly west. Pretty much doing for Moscow what the Steppe Front did for Kursk the next year.

Point in fact those reserve armies mostly stood in place in that deep reserve until he was certain that the Germans were heading south -- a decision he didn't make until after Voronezh fell. He actually did expect them to swing north from there and could've deployed to counter that. Those forces wound up going to Stalingrad and the surrounding area instead (including 2 tank armies, among others. Chuikov's 62nd was one of these reserve armies, by the way.)

Edit: in a different world, Chuikov might just as well found himself fighting tooth and nail over the ruins of the Kremlin...I wonder where the 62nd army is at in this game?

[jimh009]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

Can you elaborate on the 3 AI advantages? What kind of attack/defense bonus? What do you mean it sees past FOW? And can you explain the full MP factor?

I think it's good that the AI has "some help," so no arguments from me. But it would be nice to know exactly what that help entails!

[Plainian]

Chuikov should be commanding the 1st Reserve Army at Tula so thats why Tula is a tough nut to crack. The 1st Resv Army activates as the 64th Army by the way. The 7th Resv Army was stationed at Stalingrad and activates as the 62nd under Kolpakchi.

The Secret of Stalingrad by Walter Kerr published in 1978.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Stalin had 10 reserve armies set aside in depth and in echelon around Moscow, not just piled up in the front facing directly west. Pretty much doing for Moscow what the Steppe Front did for Kursk the next year.

Point in fact those reserve armies mostly stood in place in that deep reserve until he was certain that the Germans were heading south -- a decision he didn't make until after Voronezh fell. He actually did expect them to swing north from there and could've deployed to counter that. Those forces wound up going to Stalingrad and the surrounding area instead (including 2 tank armies, among others. Chuikov's 62nd was one of these reserve armies, by the way.)

Edit: in a different world, Chuikov might just as well found himself fighting tooth and nail over the ruins of the Kremlin...I wonder where the 62nd army is at in this game?

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: jimh009

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

Can you elaborate on the 3 AI advantages? What kind of attack/defense bonus? What do you mean it sees past FOW? And can you explain the full MP factor?

I think it's good that the AI has "some help," so no arguments from me. But it would be nice to know exactly what that help entails!

At challenging level, the AI will automatically pass all admin checks for MP reduction. Normally if that check fails, you lose 20% of your MPs. Normally this dependisthe leadership quality and overload of the HQs involved. I'd guess on average there's a 1/3 chance to fail this check (so you can see this as a 7% boost in average MPs). There is a similar init check each turn for each unit, and this is not impacted by the Challenging level.

The AI is not impacted by FOW at the strategic level (i.e. it sees all units on the map). But this only partially offsets the basic strategic inability of any AI (i.e it's not smart enough to take real advantage of the extra information).

I'm not sure what combat bonuses Jon is talking about. At challenging the AI's unit's get a morale bonus and a fort building bonus and a logistics bonus, and these will help it when it fights. However, I don't know of any specific combat benefit (i.e. increased chance to hit just due to the AI level) and don't think there are any.

[PyleDriver]

(DAR) Well Model has bridgeheads on both of Kalinin's flanks. A small pocket was taken out in his rear. Armin's corps is ready to support his left...

[Zorch]

Doesn't the Russian line look weak now?
Can we see a screenshot of fortification levels?

[kevini1000]

Hi,

I've been following this AAR for some time now. I was curious as to what the German 18th and 17th armies are up to atm.

Thanks

Kevin

[PyleDriver]

Zorch the fort levels are low in the areas I'm pressing, they only have so much time to form defences...Sath what do you mean by atm?

[PyleDriver]

(AAR) The battle for Kalinin is on. Model pushed 4 divisions across the Volga southeast of the city. Theres 2 PzC's across the Tveritsa to the northeast. Rail repair is now being done in Torzhok just 30 miles from Kalinin...Armin is still clearing up the left and destroyed the rail center at Bologoe, still hoping to draw Soviet reserves there...

[kevini1000]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Zorch the fort levels are low in the areas I'm pressing, they only have so much time to form defences...Sath what do you mean by atm?

atm is at this moment. I mean what is the 18th army up around lennigrad. I know you had the corridore cut. And what is the 17th army up to. I know they are between the 11th army and the 1st PZ/6th army. Kind of in the south middle area where we do not see many screenshots.

Thanks

Kevin

[PyleDriver]

(AAR) Tula is a thorn in my side. I did isolate it but it could be some time before it falls. Balck launched attacks on Hoths right but chose not to advance... My C&C is a mess with 2nd PzA and I'll need to clean it up very soon.

[PyleDriver]

(AAR) Kleist closed the pocket around Voronezh and continues his drive north traping more units. The 502nd Hvy Pz Bat, and more artillery was transfered from OKH to his command...The right flank looks weak with that Soviet build up there. I have a LW flak regiment (88's) and now Tigers laying in wait...

[SGHunt]

Jon

Same treatment for Lipetsk, I presume?

I remain concerned about the reduction of the now three significant pockets - how can these be rubbed out quickly to free up the infantry to provide your flank support?

Please see my questions in the Q and A thread about Kleist's reserves.

Thanks
Stuart

[PyleDriver]

Sorry for the delay on this post. Alot has been going on with updates. Gary just thru me like the 7th AI update since I started this game. We have some map art changes also...Well Kleist got the piss knocked out of him. Over 1200 tanks countered, realing him south and freeing the pockets...This is a (ss) during the Soviet move...Anyone still wondering about the AI?

[Flaviusx]

I was wondering where all the Soviet armor was.