Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts?

[pcall]

Hi,

If I wanna fight off pirates that are trying to extort me by attacking my trade routes, do I just build more escorts? Will they automatically protect my freighters?

[exelsiar]

if your frieghters have some shielding and armour they'll survive untill they get to a safe distance (normally), that on top of having more escorts and frigates will indeed deal with the pirates well enough. if still not satisfied, find and take out their base of operations ^_^

[Fishman]

If you build, or even design, more escorts, you are making your problems worse. Don't do this. What happens is that if you build a shiny new anti-pirate escort, frigate, or destroyer, the pirates will get exact copies of these designs and you will be facing pirates with exactly the same ships. This is extremely counterproductive, since now you need a newer, better ship...which means...

So, don't do this.

[pcall]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

If you build, or even design, more escorts, you are making your problems worse. Don't do this. What happens is that if you build a shiny new anti-pirate escort, frigate, or destroyer, the pirates will get exact copies of these designs and you will be facing pirates with exactly the same ships. This is extremely counterproductive, since now you need a newer, better ship...which means...

So, don't do this.

So just add armor and shielding? Shouldn't building more escorts be the same as long as I keep the design the same, or does it mean there will be more pirates around too?

[Fishman]

If you don't redesign, or allow the computer to redesign, your escorts, and you're not the tech leader, you can build as many standard escorts as you want, but then they suck and are worthless, so there's again no point in building them because they won't actually successfully defeat pirates on their own. Escort has to be able to shoot down a pirate on its own, without your intervention. That means no mobbing or manual flight tactics.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: pcall
If I wanna fight off pirates that are trying to extort me by attacking my trade routes, do I just build more escorts? Will they automatically protect my freighters?

Yes, more escorts and frigates will help, though they will generally protect the destinations that the freighters go to rather than escorting the freighters themselves.

Yes, the pirates may also get access to your designs, but not building escorts and frigates because of that is not a good solution. You need a cheap anti-piracy force and these size ships are ideally suited for that role.

[pcall]

I'm currently restricting to building a ship size of 200. How do I break that ship building limit?

[Aurelian]

Construction research.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, the pirates may also get access to your designs, but not building escorts and frigates because of that is not a good solution. You need a cheap anti-piracy force and these size ships are ideally suited for that role.

Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

EMPIRES should be the ones creating knockoff models of your ships: They actually have to PAY for it and this makes it fair. Pirates shouldn't. As it stands now, building an escort is a counterproductive exercise that instantly undermines the very goal you made them for.

If you want the real countermove, the answer is to design hundreds of crippled escort, destroyer, and frigate models, which don't function effectively, and then never build any of them. Pirates will imitate THOSE designs instead, and be completely crippled and harmless.

[Rustyallan]

Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

Agreed. One escort or frigate tagging along or watching the destination doesn't do enough against 2-3 ships of the same design. Building more escorts and frigates so that you have 4-5 at each system should counter that though. Providing the AI manages them properly. [8|]

If you want the real countermove, the answer is to design hundreds of crippled escort, destroyer, and frigate models, which don't function effectively, and then never build any of them. Pirates will imitate THOSE designs instead, and be completely crippled and harmless.

At that point, you might as well turn pirates off completely.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

Agreed. One escort or frigate tagging along or watching the destination doesn't do enough against 2-3 ships of the same design. Building more escorts and frigates so that you have 4-5 at each system should counter that though. Providing the AI manages them properly. [8|]

That's a lot of ifs. And a lot of ships. All this to solve a problem you unnecessarily created in the first place, too.

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

At that point, you might as well turn pirates off completely.

That'd be why I don't do it, although it clearly exposes the weakness in the system.

[Tacit_Exit]

I just 'copy as new' an Escort/Frigate/Destroyer design and change its designation to Capital Ship then build those as my cheap anti pirate forces.

I think this stymies the copyright violating pirates.

[exelsiar]

everyone seems to over emphasise the pirate problem, i play with maximum pirate setting, and have literally only seen 1 ship of my own design, and that was many many games ago, the pirates steal designs from other players too, so as long as your not playing solo sandbox mode you'll have very little trouble... unless you build like a 2000 size escort

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: exelsiar

everyone seems to over emphasise the pirate problem, i play with maximum pirate setting, and have literally only seen 1 ship of my own design, and that was many many games ago, the pirates steal designs from other players too, so as long as your not playing solo sandbox mode you'll have very little trouble... unless you build like a 2000 size escort

Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

[exelsiar]

haha that does sound brutal, thankfully ive never run into that problem, i only manage to keep putting myself in the red thought building only super massive space ports&nbsp;and defence bases, only managed to work out that they were the cause when i was trying to sleep >_<

[2guncohen]

Do you guys ever encountered that the private sector makes escorts ships ?

[Rustyallan]

Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

Actually, that sounds like fun... And it keeps you on your toes in dealing with pirates. I've been thinking I should start designing new escorts to be a little more powerful. I haven't seen any pirate destroyers yet in any of my games though. Just escorts and a few frigates.

[exelsiar]

ORIGINAL: 2guncohen

Do you guys ever encountered that the private sector makes escorts ships ?

no, not personally, though it would be awesome if they did, as long as it was an optional thing

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

I disagree. I play this game too, you know. [;)] I update my Escort and Frigate designs regularly and build enough of them to make sure I always have plenty to guard and escort my key ships and stations. The pirates upgrade as well, but they are never a real problem despite my upgrades. Things may be different for your playstyle, but not building escorts and frigates or building crippled ones is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

Now that is quite a story. I'd love to see the save if you have one, but while this highlights an exception that we need to address, changing your entire playstyle to avoid this kind of rare occurrence (which I've never seen as well) still doesn't make sense to me.