Derelict fleets game breaker!

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Rustyallan
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:35 am

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Rustyallan »

Still, giving the player the opportunity to put his hands on 30+ advanced ships is a game breaker... It just broke my game right now...

Sell your galaxy map to another race or three then ignore the fleet. It'll be gone in a few game months and you don't need to worry about it. [:)]
(Says the guy who didn't send a fleet of construction ships right away and couldn't find the derelict fleet a few months later...)[&:]
Fishman
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Fishman »

See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.
taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Fishman

See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.

I have seen the AI do so...
actually I could swear that the AI for other empires is zelous in grabbing those. while the AI for my own empire (If i turn it on) considers it a much lower priority.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
sbach2o
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by sbach2o »

ORIGINAL: Fishman

See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.

I guess this is more a matter of exploration than any form of ownership of territory.

In my current game I have persistant troubles with a ship graveyard where I met ships of another empire at the time of my exploration. Later, a parade of constructors from different empires came by, some of them very remote, like the other end of the galaxy. Not all AI empires got involved.

So the hypothesis is: AI send constructors as soon as they learn about the site and a constructor is free from other jobs. Learning about it can be through direct exploration or trade/theft of maps.
ORIGINAL: taltamir

I have seen the AI do so...
actually I could swear that the AI for other empires is zelous in grabbing those. while the AI for my own empire (If i turn it on) considers it a much lower priority.

Consider this: How many of your constructors are on auto and how many do you have in total? Even if I leave part of my constructor fleet on auto, it is never all of them.

Or: How fast do you expand and how fast the typical rival AI? Depending on what is going on in your empire, your resource demands and thereby construction needs may be prioritized differently compared to the AI. I am massively out-expanding and out-exploring any AI in my games and can imagine that this has most automated constructors busy constructing mines and resort or other bases rather than going after abandoned ships (but they do). Of course, this is speculation, I have no idea about whether and how the automation AI prioritizes constructor targets.
taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Bartje
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Bartje »

strangely enough that actually makes sense. [;)]
sbach2o
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by sbach2o »

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.

Oh, I never tried that. And I am never going to. I just do not trust the automation. Whenever I leave a bit automated, then look over the automation's shoulder, there's something going wrong.
taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.

Oh, I never tried that. And I am never going to. I just do not trust the automation. Whenever I leave a bit automated, then look over the automation's shoulder, there's something going wrong.

the automation has various "don't cancel order by the player" routines... there were some bugs where it did and they were mostly resolved...
I put everything on full auto, letting the AI control hundreds of ships.
I personally take over a 3 fleets of attack ships (ctrl 1 through 3), 3 fleets of troop ships (4 through 6), and utility ships for the rest (7 through 0)... such as constructors, exploration, etc...
the thing is, I wand the rest of my empire to do "useful stuff" while daddy works. and they do... they hunt space monsters, they hunt pirates (even sometimes destroy their bases with a fleet), they repair derelict ships, they even invade enemy planets and destroy enemy ships and bases... if you get into a 3 or 4 front war its very nice to get several of those guys asking for peace while you are personally conquering one, because the AI has been successfully fighting the others on the other fronts... or have the one I am fighting sue for peace as well as 2 the AI, while the fourth one was kicking my AIs butt, in which case I will make peace with the other three and personally handle the one that was besting my AI...

its a matter of scale, I like to think of it as me still being in control, just delegating some work to generals... not as competent as me, but its better then doing nothing...
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Fishman
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Fishman »

Personally, I don't mind if they're not quite as competent as me, as long as they don't blatantly screw up and get stuff *I* paid for DESTROYED. That offends me.
taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Personally, I don't mind if they're not quite as competent as me, as long as they don't blatantly screw up and get stuff *I* paid for DESTROYED. That offends me.

that is exactly my position... heck, if they were more competent then me then I would get better result by letting them control everything all the time.
At THAT point I wouldn't be playing the game...

They are just supposed to not screw up too badly. and overall, be better then leaving all ships you don't directly control idle.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
sbach2o
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by sbach2o »

Well, we are definitely off on a tangent here, my comment about the automation was short and very not-to-the-point, insofar that you really must leave a lot automated to survive in this game (as in not micromanage yourself to death).

Constructors are not one of the areas I can let myself leave mostly to automation though.

The real point in my initial post above was
ORIGINAL: sbach2o

How fast do you expand and how fast the typical rival AI? Depending on what is going on in your empire, your resource demands and thereby construction needs may be prioritized differently compared to the AI. I am massively out-expanding and out-exploring any AI in my games and can imagine that this has most automated constructors busy constructing mines and resort or other bases rather than going after abandoned ships (but they do).

This is bound to govern how many 'free' constructors you have at a given time. Probably only those are available to be sent to repair derelict ships. And I must stress again that I have absolutely no idea in what ways the AI may prioritize repair vs construction of mines or similar things. The capital ships seem to have a quite high priority, at least. I never see AI constructors going after frigates and stuff while better ships are around. They want the best first which is a good thing.

I might add to that: I don't let the AI select which ships to build, so I may have too few constructors (compared to the AI empires) or too many. But as long as the maintenance bills get paid and all constructors are busy with useful projects, there probably aren't too many.

taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
I might add to that: I don't let the AI select which ships to buils, so I may have too few constructors (compared to the AI empires) or too many. But as long as the maintenance bills get paid and all constructors are busy with useful projects, there probably aren't too many.

Why not? every ship the AI builds is a ship I don't have to... not only do I put ship building to full auto, I also build a ton of ships manually. I build lots of construction ships, colony ships, and military ships manually despite the AI building those automatically as well.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
sbach2o
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by sbach2o »

This thread is definitely not the place to discuss these automation questions in depth.
SiempreCiego
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by SiempreCiego »

the derelict fleets can be a game breaker, but not always.

In my current game, I was given the location of something 'interesting'. Found a mdeium spaceport with good sensor coverage. under the sensor cover there were 3 separate groups of independent ships. Sent a scout to look at each. found 3 whole fleets!
My problem was that the fleet was was on the over side of the galaxy from where my empire was located. So got 5 constructors together to send there and started build additional ones at the spaceyard. Within a year all the ships had been appropriated and I managed to get about 20/30% of hte total!
Rustyallan
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Rustyallan »

For some of us, finding a derelict fleet can be fun. Looking at it from a game RP perspective, WOW COOL! Look at the awesome alien fleet we found, boss! For a small empire getting hammered by its rivals, those ships can be a lifesaver.

For others, the fleet is a gamebreaker as it makes the game far too easy. Especially early on if you manage to find a fleet and keep it to yourself. Paying for maintenance on that fleet could bankrupt you though...

What if we asked for a slider controlling how often or how early in the game fleets can be found? Or even how much protection they have.
Could that be attached to one of the existing sliders like pirates or monsters?
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the1sean
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by the1sean »

what aggression level are you playing on Lostsm? Maybe you need to bump it up a notch for a more competitive/cutthroat competition?
Fishman
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by Fishman »

Bumping it DOWN will probably improve competitiveness, actually. Increasing the AI's aggressiveness causes him to start more purposeless wars, and this will destroy or tie up even more of his resources. This will result in less constructors free because they are being run off or destroyed by other AIs, or replacing stuff that IS getting destroyed, and thus, less constructors free to grab things.
taltamir
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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

Post by taltamir »

I just tried a game on "peaceful" instead of "chaos"...
it was a little harder to "start out" because the AI weren't at war with each other so I had nothing to manipulate... declared war on most powerful empire for tons of tech and the galaxy map... had to subjugate to them when they came to my homeworld.

After that though, they were so peaceful, I had tons of FTAs, and kept on refusing mutual defense treaties (I had some for a while and it didn't work well)... but I just picked off AIs at my leisure. I think it might have been a little easier, not sure... it makes surprisingly little difference.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
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