Red October - Soviet Counter-Attack

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Redleg
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Red October - Soviet Counter-Attack

Post by Redleg »

Here's a very nasty urban fight named "Battle of Attrition" that offers the chance to conduct a Soviet assault versus the advancing Germans of 6th Army.

Warning! The AI will fight very hard to repel your attack.

I hope you enjoy this fight. Many thanks to Fradar for testing this.
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HauptmannJake
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Yep

Post by HauptmannJake »

Thanks to you Redleg. I'm going to test your scenario soon. I like enough hard AI opponent. I'm designing a scenario and using waypoints in a huge scale to force AI to be more cunning. :mad:
Jake and Karsta's Steel Panthers Supply - www.netikka.net/karonen/jksps
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Redleg
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Post by Redleg »

Good luck with your scenario, Herr Hauptmann!

Also, I hope your attack at Red October works for you.
Bing
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Post by Bing »

Redleg - I got it - will be running the scenario this afternoon and will advise results. Urrrrrah!!

Bing
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Redleg
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Post by Redleg »

Bing:

Urrrraaaaa!
Bing
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Post by Bing »

Uraaaa! Potato vodka all the way around.

Glorious Defenders of Motherland First Class defeat Fascist German Schweinhunden in 12 turns.

Despite German morale broken on T5 plus all VH's occupied for last three turns and many more Germans dead than Russian, glorious victory is "Marginal" = 3404 Glorious Defenders of Motherland First Class to 875 Fascist German ... you get the idea.

Unwritten law of WAW scenario design was observed: Germans are better equipped and their morale is higher, the troops are better than Russian sub-humans. Germans get 80 mm mortars, Russians get 50 mm mortars. Germans get flamethrowers, Russians get POG-1M.

(The POG-1M was a closely guarded Soviet WW2 military secret, only recently have the details been made public, naturally the Russian who did so was instantly imprisoned. The original, field tested weapon was simply "POG" = Pail of Gasoline. Extensive testing proved a match was necessary to detonate the weapon, therefore the POG-1M, or Pail of Gasoline w/Match. The POG-1M unit was three men: One with the pail of gasoine, the second with the match and the third whose duty it was to yell, "GET THE $%^& OUT OF HERE!!!" when the weapon was about to be detonated.)

No matter, after cranking up parameters to get the Russians to normal human level, they fight pretty well. Conscripts did better than expected. This time it was the Germans who staged senseless human wave attacks (Flamethrower human wave attacks? Sure. Why not.) - the Russians were patient, allowed the Fascist German (et seq) to expend themselves, then moved in on the VH's.

No armor, no arty support for Russians. Wouldn't expect CAS at night. Too early for Uhu (U-hu, is that you?). Missed Russian flamethrowers, not able to make Crispy Critters of Germans. Missed large Russian AFV's with which to do the Alt + O.

Straight infantry fight, other than German offboard mortars. Would like larger map, more units, armor and artillery and FT's both sides. MIght have to edit one of the German-based Stalingrad scenarios to get it.

Didn't someone do a series of Stalingrad battles with Russians as first player versus AI? I thought there was, I can't find it.

Bing
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Post by Redleg »

That's a good result, Bing. There were no decisive victories in Stalingrad in October.

Actually, I made remarkably few changes to either OOB.

I did change the rout/rally of the the conscripts a little by raising the numbers that were very low.

I don't recall altering much of anything with the Guards or SMG squads. I did upgrade the the Soviet 50mm mortars.

With the Germans, all I did was crank up the rediculously low numbers that some units had. I changed the 81mm mortars to off-board batteries so they would saturate bombard an area.

Remember the AI is about as intelligent as the average fence post so it is very difficult to get it to fight well.

What I was thinking of in this was the Battalion of specially trained Stormtroop Pioneers that were flown to Stalingrad. They arrived very confident and were anxious to demonstrate their prowess. Little did they know that their ranks would be decimated in just a few short days after a series of failed attacks.

The last part of the design dilemma is the need to provide the human player with troops that are at least manageable. A battalion of conscripts just won't make it. My exerience has been that human players do not accept defeat well! LOL Although I may try this sometime.
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Post by Redleg »

Bing: There are some older Stalingrad scenarios. Don't play any of the oldies I made. They were obliterated by multiple OOB changes and I didn't like them well enough to update.

Marauder Mel has made some S'grad scenarios but I don't know for what version of the game.

I made a couple of small, quick play S'grad Train Station fights about a year or so ago. I was told that they were difficult. I don't know if they are still at the Raiders site or not.

I will be creating several Sgrad battles once I get the maps figured out but most will be battalion size. I avoid the really big ones because of the time it takes to playtest them and the way the C/C works in SPWAW. Also, I try to keep the time it takes to play scenarios relatively short.

Marauder Mel is in the process making a S'grad campaign.
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Post by Bing »

I know about the AI - can't play WAW very long without coming to terms with it. The battle was fun, just lacking in armor and artillery. I got the Soviet 50mm mortars to do mini-TOT, particularly at the set of VH's at the extreme top of the map. Worked pretty good, too.

You know, I used to think I knew something about how WAW works, recently I have been proved wrong. Onboard arty/mortars are supposed to be able to target on an individual basis without FO or HQ aid, right? Wrong - two or more of the 50's in this battle refused to do that. Instead, the FO with crummy arty rating - 65 or so - WAS able to get same turn response from ALL mortars. But then on succeeding turns the same mortars that refused to target individually refused to move their target hex in the normal manner - they would cancel and start over, with 0.5 response, but they wouldn't move the target hex.

----------------------------------------------------------

Any and all Soviet vs nasty Germans would be welcome. We need Russian armored cars, preferably the ones that ran on railroad tracks - most of the urban maps include trakcs, so I don't know how difficult it would be to get an armored car to run on the tracks in place of a train.

I might be persuaded to work on it as an addition to future S-grad battles - let me know. Would have to research how the train is kept on the tracks to begin with.

There was some time ago a scen with a Japanese AC that ran on RR tracks, can't remember the name of it though. No idea where to get that totally distinctive sound the AC must have made when running on rails.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
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Redleg
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Post by Redleg »

Bing:
It is quite a challenge to get the AI to run an armored car on RR tracks in a reliable way - A long time back, I made a Japanese scenario in Burma and "sort of" had that working.

I just replayed "Battle of Attrition" with C/C turned on - that greatly improved the scenario, IMO. Even though it is a small map, there was a time or two that orders became a bit of a problem and I was with limited mortar support for several turns.

I do not self-spot artillery so when my FO ran out of orders, I was in a bit of trouble.

Anyway, the best I could with C/C turned on was a "healthy" draw. Very enjoyable.

What I long for is immobed tanks that stay immobed. I will never get it but it would be great to dig in a KV on a street to support the AI.

Another thing I long for is an AI that will identify and fire counter battery at on-board artillery. Too bad.

Perhaps CL will provide these sorts of capabilities.
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Post by Bing »

So YOU were the one that did the Japanese railroad armored car. Ma foi!! And Pa Foi and all the little baby fois.

Well, don't feel too bad about the performance of said object; the best anyone has done is to "sort of" "run" trains in the game. I mean, the trains I have seen don't uncouple the loco, advance it a few hexes, uncouple the next car, advance a few hexes (with no power), recouple with loco, et seq remainder of train.

The best of trains in WAW - for me - has been the armored variety parked on a siding. BTW, a major use of the Russian "rail scout" was to send it out in advance of the armored train - apparently if it did not derail due to sabotaged or damaged tracks or was not ambushed, it was OK to send the train proper. For me, a functioning rail AC without the distinctive sound wouldn't be much and I don't have the foggiest where to get such a WAW file.

I never play with C&C on - in my military book, the most remarkable actions on the battlefield were precisely when one or more units - or formations - did exactly what they were not supposed to do. It is I believe called intiative.

To each his own, this isn't a knock on anyone who plays with C&C on - the game is flexible enough to allow both and be successful.

Don't follow your comment: "Another thing I long for is an AI that will identify and fire counter battery at on-board artillery. Too bad." ... for most of the battle that's ALL the German offboard arty targeted, usually two of the three locations of the 50mm mortars. Their shooting was not efficient as I was able to rally Glorious Defenders of ... et al rather easily.

No idea why this would happen when I played and not when you played - how much testing was involved with players other than yourself might be the answer. Once the German offbd got the idea, they pounded the Russian mortars - come to think of it, having ammo limitations OFF might have something to do with it.

In general I've found offbd counter-battery in v7.1 (always with limited ammo OFF) is more likely to occur than before, going all the way back to v4.5 and maybe before that. My favorite has always been Wild Bill's U2, where the German 150 FH's took on the US B-17's - they shot down more than one as I remember.

Let's have more Stalingrad - soon I hope - the offer to test remains open. I enjoyed the battle, while we might miss the AFV's and support weapons, it is good to be reminded that infantry is "The Queen of Battle" - no comment intended on the personal lives of members of infantry units, the phrase predates such ideas by a long period of time.

Bing
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Post by Redleg »

Bing:
I have never seen the AI fire counter-battery at on-board artillery units unless those units have been spotted. I am talking hundreds of battles here.

Perhaps it is related to the unlimited ammo thing. I don't recall ever playing with unlimited ammo or complete squads, move and shoot turned off, etc. Maybe I am missing out on something.

More Stalingrad on the way. Marauder says he is up to 7 new battles in his campaign.

My effort will be delayed a bit while I try to get a handle on how to put the city on maps but some scenarios will be along soon. I have specific things in mind that will take time accomplish.

Fradar made better moving trains than I thought possible a few months ago. Very difficult to do.

Testing. I play each scenario I create with all options on except C/C. No incremental saving, undo key, or any of that. I also play with Op Fire turned off because it is quicker. I play until I am able to win. Then I pass it on for someone else to play.

Sometimes I play the darned things 6-8 times to the point that I am sick of them before I get a good result.

The Rumanian battle I just posted, I played entirely through 3 times and goodness knows how many partial plays. I didn't farm it out for testing because it is fictional and pretty straight-forward.

The time it takes to test and debug is the one of the main reasons I limit the size to a battalion or so.
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Post by Bing »

Looks like unlimited ammo does the trick. I have had offboard AI arty engage my onboard arty in Red October and my not very successful remake of the Tractor Factory scenario.

Perhaps it also has somehting to do with making sure the AI starts off the game with a bombardment if AI is going to be first player - but this one is a little iffy, speculation actually.

But there is no question I have had this going on contiinuously. Same thing with both scenarios: AI opens with a barrage no matter if AI is first or second player. AI then takes second turn off, swabbing the tubes or whatever. Third turn AI realizes it has sufficient ammo and starts whacking the front lines. Darn good spotting, too. After two or three turns of shellng the skirmisih line, the AI switches part or all of its tubes to my onboard arty.

The main reason Tractor Factory doesn't work when switching sides - I first made all German arty offboard, deleting the onboard mortars - is the minefield. AI doesn't know what to do with mines, tries to find a way thru the field, about all the human player has to do is shoot at the units attempting to pass thru the minefield - fire at them with anything available, throwing sticks and stones might do it - the AI just sits there.

Took out the mines and gave the Russian player 5 x heavy tank and the German advance still stalls. If the Russian leg units are capable of firing at them and hang in there, the German AI simply stops. T6 or T7, the game engine throws in the towel - despite the game length of 30 turns it aborts early.

There really are not that many scenarios for player as Russian versus AI Anybody. Being an incurable champion of those who are not supposed to do well - but do extremely well anyway - am lookng forward to your newest and those of Marauder.

Maybe a beta release for the unwavering faithful?? I really am not that bad as a tester.

Bing
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Post by Redleg »

Bing:
I believe you may be able to force the AI to play that tractor factory scenario.

Try this:
1. Open the battle up and then save is as a Soviet assault/German defend.

2. Go to deploy and delete all German way-points, delays.

3. Redefine the German waypoints, delays.

4. Delete most all German-owned landmines.

5. Set some way-points and delays for Soviet forces for AI vs AI alpha-testing.

6. Use Soviet owned landmines so the AI cannot see them. Then it will advance to oblivion. LOL I would do this last after the battle seems to work.

Run AI vs AI for a few turns and watch to see if the German AI is moving ok.

Note that if the AI discovers landmines and cannot see a way to its objective, it will sometimes stop or mill around aimlessly. Try to have some path for the AI to use. That's why I add landmines last.
Bing
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Post by Bing »

Seems to me easier to simply start over with creating the scenario.

I have moved on to Kindershreck - a frustrating scenario to play because the terrain resembles an irregular washboard.

I had to completely delete the Russian offboard arty and reacquire same - the game STARTED with one battery out of contact, went on to three of four out of contact, then the German offboard engaged the Russian offboard and we know what happened next, dont we? I have FO's at 100 in every important category. Unlimited ammo. Same thing happened. Game engine does not like Russians, no matter if they are first or second player, doesn't make an iota of difference what time period either.

So, to heck with it, I deleted the Russian offboard completely and gave them onboard mortars. I fully expect the German arty to engage them, which is OK. At the very least the cursed things ANSWER a call for fire missions.

Glorioski, Sandy, I hope this sort of thing has been cured in CL.

Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
Bing
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Post by Bing »

KindershreckM is history. All ~20 VH's are neutral at start and I am certain the naughty Germans never did occupy one single VH for an entire game turn, not even a half turn. Nasty Germs did do in 22 AFV's to the 19 I shredded (would have scrap-heaped more if there had been more) - mens were about three to one favor of Glorious Defenders of Etc. (I know I am doing OK in terms of progress to neutralize an AT emplacment when I get them down to "1 Mens". I actually had a Field First that used to say that: "All right, you mens!!")

Came away with the usual "Marginal".

Naughty German offboard arty did in fact target my Glorious Mortars, following usual and normal one turn delay to find the bathroom, so to speak. Being 75mm howies they did no damage to speak of - if I ever replay Kindershreck it will be with Germ howies increased to 105 minimum, more likely 150's.

The blasted game makes it possible for a German Kar 98K rifle slug to take out an armored car - at 250 meters. Sure.

Just to demonstrate the bias in favor of Germans in the game, the captured T-34's will take four times the punishment the Soviet T-34's will endure - not a question of rally and so on, which I always crank up to get the Soviets to a human state - it is simply that now the T-34 has a German name on it, therefore it will be four times harder to kill. Not disable. Kill.

Not to worry - Glorious Etc will win. Set new record of breaking German force morale over nine consecutive turns. Never saw that before. Usually breaking it once is enough - doesn't mean the game is over, it means notifying the player once is usually sufficient.

Maybe the game engine DOES like me after all. And I didn't even send it a Christmas card. Shame on me.

Kindershreck was fun, the Germans put up a pretty good fight but do not move quickly enough to occupy the VH's. I have noticed that AI movement of units is sometimes a fraction of what is normally available to the so-called Human player. Don't know why this is - ???.

Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
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