Weapon balance for the future

[Rustyallan]

Well, there's the "ultimate" torpedo and the "ultimate" beam at the end of the tech tree... or maybe only on world destroyers.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I would add to this list that I want some system to keep me from completely over-powering the AI with my designs and I would actually be whole set against the 'ultimate weapon in a certain role' addition (that is too much like rock paper scissors).

The obvious answer to avoid having the AI be overpowered by user-made designs is for the AI to create his own knockoffs of them if they kick his ass, just like in real life: When a country comes out with an awesome piece of military hardware, other countries go and make knockoff versions of it. So the AI should design his own version, using the best versions of the parts he has.

[lordxorn]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Rather than adding more weapons or humongous changes to the design system, the easy solution is just to increase the competitiveness of beams: Double the projectile speed, because honestly, they're ridiculously slow right now, double the rate of fire, and cut the energy consumption to about 75%. Voila: Now it's competitive again. The main thing is simply that the shorter ranged weapon needs to have better DPS than its counterpart, otherwise it's pointless.

This can be remedied by simply allowing the mod community access to these attributes. [:D]

[Bartje]

What I mean with "best weapon for a certain role" is not to create a rock paper scizors effect
 
 
What I would like it to do is to demonstrate the advantages as well as disadvantages of certain weapons in certain roles.
 
Allowing enough room for strategy and freedom.
 
 
For example:
 
Torpedoes are useful against slow moving or stationary objects.
 
Lasers work too but they are less effective because you'l have to "expose" yourself (risk) and they may pack less of a punch. (though the station may have enough point defense to pick off your torpedoes; forcing a close confrontation anyway)
 
 

[Canute0]

For example:

Torpedoes are useful against slow moving or stationary objects.

Lasers work too but they are less effective because you'l have to "expose" yourself (risk) and they may pack less of a punch. (though the station may have enough point defense to pick off your torpedoes; forcing a close confrontation anyway)

It allways depend on the Tech the game/universe use.
When the battlefield is just a few 100 km big, Torpedos are slow, Laser are superior.
When the battlefield are millions of KM, ships move with 10-50% of lightspeed, torpedos are the 1.choise weapon and fly with 40-80% lightspeed. Laser become limited to close range fight below 1 lightsecond (300.000 km).

Befor you all discuss what weapons are better, you should discuss about what tech does DW use.

[Bartje]

Yes that is true but it is also true that the tech can be made plausible for whatever situation benefits gameplay (the famous fun factor!!) most.

Finding that awnser is up to us. What do we think will benefit gameplay ?

One ultimate weapon (torpedoes as it stands now)

Or a mix of interactions and situational contexts that results in superior weapons for given critera in a given situation. (sort of semi-role bound weaponry)


Right now it would benefit gameplay if Lasers can destroy incoming torpedoes (with a chance to miss etc..)

That way you'll need to overpower (numbers or muchas tech) in order to exclusively use torps.

Otherwise you'll have to get in close and dirty with lasers or use some new weapon that may be added. (fighters? Long range beam weapons? Missiles? (-a torpedo variation with different image))


Thats how I see it; this is a formula that offers both variety and can be made plausible (immersion) within the DW universe.



In short: This is what "I" think would be fun. Do you also think it would be fun? Is there something that would me more fun?


Another reason: Point Defense sort of draws a paralel to Missile Interception systems the navy & army use. It provides something of a familiarity which helps make the DW universe seem more "natural". (since it draws on reality; even if not real per se)



Other Concerns:

What I'm curious about is whether or not Point Defense and such is possible in DW.

I suppose it depends on whether or not the program treats torpedoes as objects (for impact event) or if it just draws them and calculates impact time and then applies damage at that time.

Otherwise we'll probably have to balance lasers and torps the way other people here suggested. Upping laser damage. (If memory serves)

[:)]

[Rustyallan]

Yes that is true but it is also true that the tech can be made plausible for whatever situation benefits gameplay (the famous fun factor!!) most.

I think that something we should keep in mind, myself included, is that the weapons and such need to be plausible and consistent with the rules of physics within the game universe.

But there definitely needs to be some balance so that we players have less desire/need to customize our ships and totally ignore the AI's designs.

I'm seeing 7 different roles at the moment
Short-range blaster (fast refire, heavy damage, fast speed, low range, larger size, less energy)
Long-range beam (slow refire, lighter damage, slower speed, long range, smaller size, much more energy)
Heavy torpedo (slow refire, heavy damage, low speed, shorter range, larger size, less energy)
Fast torpedo (faster refire, lighter damage, fast speed, longer range, smaller size, more energy)
Bombs (very slow refire, low damage, short range, low speed bombard ability, much larger size, more energy)
Superweapons (they blow up planets and miss most ships that they fire at)
Area waves (the damage everything around you, use with caution or malice)

So aside from specialty weapons, there are currently FOUR main weapon types, not two. LR/SR beams and torpedoes alternate in the tech tree so it's interesting what mix you'll get using autodesign or upgrade selected for ships. I've said before they they need to be broken out in the design screen so that they're seen and used.

That or we need to have a linear progression on the damage/range/speed if they remain in the same research lines.

I actually like how they're split into LR/SR versions of each, but they're not used that way by the game. There's only two types in the designer, beam and torpedo. And that's all we've been caring about while the weapons give us the ability to make some designs with flavor. But reality is all you need is to load your ship full of the longest-range torpedo you've got.

[Bartje]

Exactly!

Which woudn't make sense anymore if said torpedo would be picked off by a ship with adequate laser protection.

Unprotected capital ships would be sitting ducks against torpedo attacks. Especially if such torpedoes were to be launched by swarms of fighters. Just to give an example.

I'd like such strategies and situations. I'd like it especially if the AI uses this.



As for consistency; You are correct it needs to make sense within the DW Universe.

Whatever makes sense however is determined by what the DW Universe is [;)]

Its not ours; though it has similarities.

I suppose we want to see a fun but plausible (in that order; it's a game) Distant Worlds Universe.

But it certainly has to be consistent!

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

But reality is all you need is to load your ship full of the longest-range torpedo you've got.

All LR torp loadouts have distinct weaknesses: They can only kill one thing at a time, because the weapon director will fire all weapons at a single target, the first thing that comes into range, and blow it to smithereens in a grossly excessive display of gratuitous carnage, and then you won't have anything to throw at anyone else for a good second or so. While this drawback is not significant on a ship, it's a major problem in a spaceport which renders an all-LR-torp spaceport largely ineffective at preventing enemy landings. You will want a mix of weapons, even though lazors are currently inferior as of 1.03/4, simply for close-range rapid-fire defense, as lazors are less prone to mass-waste because of their lower individual damage and range and and faster refire and projectile speed. At long range, two entire volleys of torps can go to waste on a target that will die in half of one, simply because it's not dead by the time you can fire again. Waves are also important, simply because they can mass-sweep many attackers, but their slow-reload renders them vulnerable. However, waves can destroy your merchant ships. You may or may not consider this a drawback. I don't. Worthless cowards deserve their deaths.

[Bartje]

It would be nice if they would have a secondary target. Perhaps as a tech upgrade.

That would enhance torpedo effectiveness once lasers or other weapons have been fine tuned.

[Fishman]

Torpedoes don't NEED more effectiveness!

[Bartje]

They may once the new patch has arrived [:'(]

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

They may once the new patch has arrived [:'(]

Look, you could quadruple the firepower on lazors, and I'd still be building torpships simply because range and speed are king. I'd just also take to building lazorships. Torps simply do not need to be better. In a traditional-balance system, lazorships get quick, speedy kills on things, but when it really hits the fan, they die. Torpships live forever. You can see this effect in SOTS: Heavy beam and cannon ships tear up the opponent, but when shit really hits the fan, high-speed missile ships are all but unkillable, simply because they can outrun and outshoot anything trying to kill them, and rack up ridiculous kill ratios as a result.

Too bad they're completely worthless at defending anything.

[Bartje]

Now imagine torpedoes being picked off by Laser point defenses. (which can hopefully be introduced [:D] )

Will you still build fleets of those vs opponents that use all lasers to swat your torpedoes to death ?

You can't really use them to defend your empire nor can you effectively use them to kill the enemy.

They would be flying maintentance costs in essence [;)]


You'd have to concentrate torps on one target; hope they get through the Point Defense Screen and if they do *Boom*.

It'd suck if they all focussed on just that target though. Waste of killing power.

[Rustyallan]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

All LR torp loadouts have distinct weaknesses: They can only kill one thing at a time, because the weapon director will fire all weapons at a single target, the first thing that comes into range, and blow it to smithereens in a grossly excessive display of gratuitous carnage, and then you won't have anything to throw at anyone else for a good second or so. While this drawback is not significant on a ship, it's a major problem in a spaceport which renders an all-LR-torp spaceport largely ineffective at preventing enemy landings. You will want a mix of weapons, even though lazors are currently inferior as of 1.03/4, simply for close-range rapid-fire defense, as lazors are less prone to mass-waste because of their lower individual damage and range and and faster refire and projectile speed. At long range, two entire volleys of torps can go to waste on a target that will die in half of one, simply because it's not dead by the time you can fire again. Waves are also important, simply because they can mass-sweep many attackers, but their slow-reload renders them vulnerable. However, waves can destroy your merchant ships. You may or may not consider this a drawback. I don't. Worthless cowards deserve their deaths.

And the part in bold is bad? [:D] A agree with your reasoning and that's pretty much what I do already. Torpedo only spaceports are extremely vulnerable. Of course, any spaceport is easily bypassed when I invade.
I usually have a few torpedo-laden cruisers bombarding them as I fly a troopship in to take over. The only defense I've found against an invasion is enough troops on the planet. Orbitals are near-worthless if they're distracted and they're easily distracted.
As for the second bold... As I said, use with care or malice.

[Dadekster]

Speaking of which, would be nice if orbitals has some programming that would force it to fire on ships that have troop mods. As it is I have to use a house rule where I force myself to blow up the orbital defenses before landing troops as I find just keep orbitals distracted long enough to do a quickie invasion is sort of cheap. But that doesn't have much to do with weapon balancing. [:o]

I'd take even the whole torp ships are great at attacking but lousy at defense as at least it gives a credible reason as to why I should bother building different types of ships for military functions. Not counting that you have to have a troop mod to invade a planet and a military ship has guns, I find I can make about 3 designs crank out a bunch of them and do everything needed with just those. [>:]

[Bartje]

True True; Can't wait till 1.05!

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Now imagine torpedoes being picked off by Laser point defenses. (which can hopefully be introduced [:D] )

Interesting. Wouldn't change much, though...

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Will you still build fleets of those vs opponents that use all lasers to swat your torpedoes to death ?

Yes! They can't fire at me if they're shooting at my torps. Shoot this!

ORIGINAL: Bartje

You'd have to concentrate torps on one target; hope they get through the Point Defense Screen and if they do *Boom*.

It'd suck if they all focussed on just that target though. Waste of killing power.

Wouldn't be a waste if it was NECESSARY to accomplish the kill. And as each one falls, the point defense net weakens and the rest die faster.

[Bartje]

ergo the tech advancement;
 
What do you think about point defense though?
 
You like?? You will bless the idea??? Or will you shoot it down (pun intended) [:'(]

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

What do you think about point defense though?

I have no opinion. The game has bigger issues that render it unplayable than the presence or lack of point-defense. The feasibility of shooting down plasma balls could go either way, really, since such things don't really exist.