Marines in WW2 considered elite?

[cantona2]

Were Marines considered elite in WW2 in the same vein that some Waffen SS Divisions and some Red Army Guard units were? Or is regarding them as simply sea borne infantry trivialising them somewhat

Thanks

[Nikademus]

They would have considered themselves elite. [:D]

USMC had a strong core of "old breed" regulars, career soldiers who knew their stuff. According to Bergerud, the USMC emphasised rifle marksmenship to a greater degree vs. the Army, which moved more towards greater success through firepower as the ultimate formulae for success. Like the army though, the USMC had to expand by incorporating fresh drafts. The story of how the USMC 1st div was brought up to TO&E for WATCHTOWER made for interesting reading. (basically borrowing vets from other regiments to build a strong core....filled out by green drafts)

[John Lansford]

I think the 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions were considered "elite"; as the war dragged on and more Marine divisions were added, the quality of the units probably went down somewhat due to draftees and other units being incorporated into them.  Even the later divisions would probably be thought of as high quality though.  The early Marine divisions had many good experienced men and officers in them, from the Central America brushwars and Philippines, and their training was top notch as well.  I read somewhere where the Marine commanders knew that in the event of a war, they'd be first out of the gate, and were constantly training and teaching the men rather than putting them in a garrison mentality.

[topeverest]

Since the Marines were armed to assault enemy shores, they became the primary weapon in the pacific. I would agree they received the best of the equipment and training, and got the toughest assignments. In that I would call them elite. Certainly 1 & 2 USMC.

This does not discount other 'elite' ground units in the allied forces.

[Andy Mac]

I would say results speak for themselves so the answer is yes.
 
 

[Nomad]

I would say yes. And one of the last, I thinnk the 5th, was the most experienced. They used a very high number of veterans for it. Many of the Raider unts were used.

[RUDOLF]

They were probably very skilled in assaulting islands, but overall they did not see very many continues combat weeks compared to most other formations that fought in WW2, and very little combat compared to most elite units of WW2.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Since the Marines were armed to assault enemy shores, they became the primary weapon in the pacific. I would agree they received the best of the equipment and training, and got the toughest assignments.

I beg to differ with you. More allied Army units made more naval assaults during the war then the Marines did. Also marines have rarely been given the best equipment, they always had second hand stuff mostly, even up til the Gulf War 1 they were using M60 tanks versus the Army's M1's. I will agree that they did get most of the toughest operations.

[tocaff]

The Marines do more with less and if that makes combat formations elite then so be it.

[jomni]

The sporadic action of the Pacific War also made it possible for troops to stay with their units much longer (bond together in between battles in some desolate island base). This improves their loyaly, esprit de corps and morale.[:D]

[Wirraway_Ace]

They were very successful formations with a specialized (but not too specialized) role.  Because of their early success, some believe they got a better class of draftees volunteering to serve in the Marines vs the Army.  Sounds elite; however, unlike the Waffen SS or the Guards Units, they did not receive the best of the available equipment at the expense of other line units nor, to my knowledge, was there a selection process that culled regular units for service in the Marines.  To my knowledge, again, a Marine was not paid more than a Soldier.  That being said, they performed at a very high level without robbing the rest of the ground forces of the best equipment or "best" personnel.  An ideal situation.
 
RUDOLF noted that they did not have nearly as much continuous combat time as say, the 2SS Panzer.  I would argue that the bulk of the US Marine formations had plenty of combat exposure and suffered relatively light casualties, so they were able to accumulate experience effectively.  By the end of the war, which formation had the most experienced leaders and soldiers, 1st Mar Div, 2SS Panzer, 1st GvSD?

[jomni]

Marines are expendable troops... Why give them top of the line equipment if they're just going to die on the beach without firing a shot.
Just give enough equipment to get the job done.

[Cajun Tifoso]

ORIGINAL: jomni

Marines are expendable troops... Why give them top of the line equipment if they're just going to die on the beach without firing a shot.
Just give enough equipment to get the job done.

Actually, the Marines now, as then, did not get the best equipment. What makes the Marines what we are is (1) knowing how to do the most with the least, and (2) an Esprit de Corps built upon tradition and comradery. And they were NOT expendable. The word you must have been looking for is "reliable."

If you don't believe it, check out the 1st MarDiv's campaign in the Chosin Reservior in 1950.

[John Lansford]

Marine units don't have the logistics or support tail that comparable Army units had, so they were somewhat smaller.  However, nearly every man in the division was considered combat worthy, so the amount of available manpower for the combat regiments was much higher than in an Army division.  Equipment in WWII for the divisions started off inferior, but by the later years were getting comparable stuff to the Army units. 

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Cajun Tifoso


If you don't believe it, check out the 1st MarDiv's campaign in the Chosin Reservior in 1950.

Yes! I read a book about the battle at Chosin Reservoir in college (military history class) and all I can say is "Wow." The retreat from Chosin, and the role the marines played was epic! I'd bet on a Marine division vs any of the elite German or Russian divisions any day.

[Blackhorse]

By any reasonable standard, the marines were "elite."

Training and Attitude: In the 1920s and 1930s the Marines adopted the mission, and developed the doctrine, of taking and seizing hostile shores and bases. The saw themselves as an offensive force. And trained to the dicta of "every marine a rifleman." The Army has no equivalent to General Geiger, who commanded both air wings and ground forces, and, after the death of US Army General Simon Bolivar Buckner on Okinawa, led the Tenth Army -- the only non-US Army General to ever command a (US) Army.

In WitP-AE you will notice that Marine Generals tend to have much higher 'aggressiveness' ratings than their Army counterparts. [MacArthur is one of the few early-war Army Generals with high aggressiveness.]

Esprit de Corps: The Marines started the war as a small force. The "Old Breed" (pre-war Marines) numbered two understrength divisions. The Corps never had more than 6 divisions, and elements of those were created by canabalizing other elite non-divisional Marine units; such as ranger and parachute battalions. The wartime expansion - 2 divisions to 6 - was proportionally small enough, especially compared to the US Army, that there were always enough seasoned veterans to set the tone for a new unit.

Most importantly, in the first year of the war, when the big rush of recruits came in, the Marines accepted only volunteers, and could reject those that did not meet their exacting standards. It wasn't until the end of 1942 (IIRC) that the Marines were forced to draw from the same pool of conscripts as the army.

Equipment. It is true that Marines started the war with some obsolete weapons. They had Springfield '03 rifles; no Army division shipped out until the soldiers carried semi-automatic M1s. But in the weapons that mattered, the Marines were ahead of the game. A Marine division has a *lot* more machine guns than its Army counterpart -- at the beginning of the war, Marine Divisions even had dozens of 'reserve' (i.e. unmanned) machine guns in the TO&E, to be used if their regular machine guns broke down. [The reserve machine guns are not included in the Marine TO&Es in WitP-AE, btw]. A Marine Division had more artillery tubes than an Army division. By 1945, a Marine Division had as many bazookas and flamethrowers as squads (an Army division had half as many).

The Blue Uniform: Chicks dig it. [&o]

[eMonticello]

One word. Stryker.

[rogueusmc]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


By any reasonable standard, the marines were "elite."

Training and Attitude: In the 1920s and 1930s the Marines adopted the mission, and developed the doctrine, of taking and seizing hostile shores and bases. The saw themselves as an offensive force. And trained to the dicta of "every marine a rifleman." The Army has no equivalent to General Geiger, who commanded both air wings and ground forces, and, after the death of US Army General Simon Bolivar Buckner on Okinawa, led the Tenth Army -- the only non-US Army General to ever command a (US) Army.

In WitP-AE you will notice that Marine Generals tend to have much higher 'aggressiveness' ratings than their Army counterparts. [MacArthur is one of the few early-war Army Generals with high aggressiveness.]

Esprit de Corps: The Marines started the war as a small force. The "Old Breed" (pre-war Marines) numbered two understrength divisions. The Corps never had more than 6 divisions, and elements of those were created by canabalizing other elite non-divisional Marine units; such as ranger and parachute battalions. The wartime expansion - 2 divisions to 6 - was proportionally small enough, especially compared to the US Army, that there were always enough seasoned veterans to set the tone for a new unit.

Most importantly, in the first year of the war, when the big rush of recruits came in, the Marines accepted only volunteers, and could reject those that did not meet their exacting standards. It wasn't until the end of 1942 (IIRC) that the Marines were forced to draw from the same pool of conscripts as the army.

Equipment. It is true that Marines started the war with some obsolete weapons. They had Springfield '03 rifles; no Army division shipped out until the soldiers carried semi-automatic M1s. But in the weapons that mattered, the Marines were ahead of the game. A Marine division has a *lot* more machine guns than its Army counterpart -- at the beginning of the war, Marine Divisions even had dozens of 'reserve' (i.e. unmanned) machine guns in the TO&E, to be used if their regular machine guns broke down. [The reserve machine guns are not included in the Marine TO&Es in WitP-AE, btw]. A Marine Division had more artillery tubes than an Army division. By 1945, a Marine Division had as many bazookas and flamethrowers as squads (an Army division had half as many).

The Blue Uniform: Chicks dig it. [&o]

Bravo on the props...and from a Blackhorse, it means something.[8D]

[CaptBeefheart]

One reason for the mystique is that Marines were and are better at PR than the Army (with just a couple of notable exceptions like MacArthur and Patton).

Cheers,
CC

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

One reason for the mystique is that Marines were and are better at PR than the Army (with just a couple of notable exceptions like MacArthur and Patton).

Cheers,
CC

"The Marine Corps is the Navy's police force and as long as I am President that is what it will remain. They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin's."
-- Harry S Truman