Waw4t - West/Russia Bwheatley/Ara vs Japan/Axis 82nd/Bart

[chestypuller]

This will be the Allied AAR location for the game aganist 82ndtrooper & Barthheart.

We have agreed that Axis forces can not look here so we have discuss strategy.

[chestypuller]

Fond memories setting up the allies supply system on turn 1 is always a bear.

[chestypuller]

lets see how bwheatley gets his butt kicked.

[chestypuller]

again roomie logging in to my dang browser. He only watches to see me get my butt kicked online lol

[bwheatley]

First turn was just setting up to try to save enough PP to do a block Germany from establishing vichy. That should give me a route into north africa if i play my cards right. But i am also working on destroyers.

[bwheatley]

2nd turn came and went just some minor positioning

[bwheatley]

British Isles


Middle East Defenses


Australia and Company

[bwheatley]

Our old WW1 DD got sunk off the coast of germany. She was just investigating the german infrastructure situation.


Britian pledges to help france and plays the vichy card


Reason being i would like to throw him off his game even if a little it. It will also keep north africa open for us to funnel reinforcements into. We can then sneak up on the I-ties from the back.

[bwheatley]

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

[bwheatley]

Jan 1940,

A christmas present was landed today by the nazis north of manchester. A division of jerrys landed and started to murder and rape innocent civilians. Where was the royal navy?? The public out cry has been harsh. Today the govt announced that the fleet landing the attack was destroyed. The royal navy vowed that they would shell the germans until they surrendered. The govt vowed they would not let such an event happen again. The royal army announced manchester would be held against all assaults.

In other news the govt today announced a new heavy bomber contract was awarded to the Halifax company. They will begin production of 2 wings of bombers per month.

---

This turn the dastardly bart launched a little raid into north england. I wasn't ready so it landed successfully. I was busy building bombers and destroyers. Bold move. My ships quickly knocked out his landing craft then went in and bombarded. I moved some troops upto manchester and hopefully it will hold next turn. Annoying.

---

Invasion!


Landing Craft Destroyed


Level Bomber 2 Purchased

[bwheatley]

Feb 1940
News Flash

Major Naval battle off the cost of britian! Royal Navy Loses 1 fleet from the great war.
Then in a counter attack the modern home defense navy battles the german kriegsmarine.
It is reported that several carrier air squadrons were lost along with a carrier which had two torpedoes hit her under her magazine and a few new destroyers.
The germans apparently suffered worse though losing a destroyer and two modern heavy cruisers along with two submarines operating in what is called a wolfpack.

The situation north of manchester has not improved the city is still under siege by nazi hordes. The Royal army launched a counter attack and was promptly repulsed. We must hope that the royal navy can continue to interdict the supplies that are keeping these huns out of manchester.


The Situation



Plane Raid on german navy


Royal Navy giving better then they got


Horrid attack north of manchester



I put my fleet into dock because they were running low on supplies so hopefully that wont give the germans a chance to take manchester.
Suprising how strong the german navy is. They wouldn't historically be able to go toe to toe with the royal navy but i like that anything is able to happen

[abulbulian]

I think something is wrong with this scenario. Germany has 3 BBII to start WWII? Is that some sort of a joke? yeah they had some pocket battleships, but not sure I would categorize these as BBII's.

The really big problem is the combat vs UK air on the German wolf pack and plus German fleet. If you don't have a clue as how effective even the 'older' Swordfish naval bombers were, then google the 'Raid on Taranto' or even learn how the Bismark was damage initially which lead to it being sunk. Even in 1939 airpower dominated the seas and without any aircover, your fleets where very vulnerable to enemy planes. This is a beta version of WaW and these types of inconsistencies need to be addresses. It would be silly to continue this game until we can find out what is wrong here. The issue I have is with the number of planes shot down, the damage the planes did is a bit unrealistic, but the 50% air casualties is absolutely wrong against just those German ships.

BTW: the scale of WaW, means the raid on Taranto would have been carried out by about 2 lvl one carrier air groups.

Go back a few frames if you need to review the battle I'm speaking about.

[82ndtrooper]

actually Germany had 2 new BB's 2 old BB's and 3 pocket BB's in 1939.

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... r-1939.htm

plus the battleship tirpitz was commissioned in 1939 but she didn't set sail til feb. of 1940 the Bismark in august of 1940.

two of these BBII's sank a british battlecrusier (the Renown) and a carrier (HMS Glorious) in 1940

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-f ... charn2.htm

so I believe the BBII count in febuary of 1940 is correct. And less overall BB's than Germany actually had.

there is a random generator that is used in combat also so there is always a chance that even though you have superior forces you can lose.
if you did this exact combat round again you would get different results about 50% of the time.

the raid on Taranto i believe was against ships docked up not moving at sea.


all in all it was a bold move by Germany  and a lucky break on the combat round. He could have lost the whole fleet had more of the British navy been in range.

[abulbulian]

LOL, the Scharnhorst class were hardly BBII's. Maybe according to German propaganda, but they were nothing compared to the Bismark class. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered armored cruisers, not battleships. Check out the specs on them and get back to me. Once again some research please? Don't even talk about the Bismark because she wasn't commissioned until Aug 1940. But actually still need to finish outfitting and training thus wasn't ready for service until 41. The Tirpitz was later and near 42 when she was ready for sea.


The raid on Taranto was done at night and against a port that was considered to be heavily armed with light and heavy AA. Yes, the allies had surprise for the first wave and the ships were in port. Still, it showed that air power was now the dominate factor in naval actions. Too bad the British didn't learn from this before they tried to sneak Force Z to help against the invasion of Malaysia. The Japanese air force made quick work of that force which consisted of the Prince of Wales and Repulse.

[82ndtrooper]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

LOL, the Scharnhorst class were hardly BBII's. Maybe according to German propaganda, but they were nothing compared to the Bismark class. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered armored cruisers, not battleships. Check out the specs on them and get back to me. Once again some research please? Don't even talk about the Bismark because she wasn't commissioned until Aug 1940. But actually still need to finish outfitting and training thus wasn't ready for service until 41. The Tirpitz was later and near 42 when she was ready for sea.


The raid on Taranto was done at night and against a port that was considered to be heavily armed with light and heavy AA. Yes, the allies had surprise for the first wave and the ships were in port. Still, it showed that air power was now the dominate factor in naval actions. Too bad the British didn't learn from this before they tried to sneak Force Z to help against the invasion of Malaysia. The Japanese air force made quick work of that force which consisted of the Prince of Wales and Repulse.

OH my.

I think I detect a challenge here.

as for research I believe I added links where you could read for yourself where I got my info and I see none in your post.

But since you choose not to read my references I will in this one case point out where you are wrong.

while you are right that I was incorrect on when the Tirpitz and Bismarck where commissioned I was also wrong on when they where launched. BOTH where launched in 1939.

The Tirpitz was launched on April 1, 1939 and the Bismarck was launched on February 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Tirpitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

In this game we have WWI battleships which are level 1 and level 2 Battleships which are battleships built AFTER WWI and where upgradable.

Both Scharnhorst Class BB"s where built after WWI and both received multiple upgrades throughout their service that makes them BBII's.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... r-1939.htm



As far them being nothing more than armored cruisers as you claim I find that they had the same armor as a battleship and 11" guns that the British want to classify as cruisers. So show me clear proof that they deserve to only be classified as cruisers.
also these two Battleships had far more lucrative careers than either the tirpitz or the Bismark, sinking a British Aircraft carrier and her escorts. The HMS Glorious in june of 1940.
Not to mention that both where supposed to have larger guns installed but where rushed through production and wound up with the smaller 11" guns.

They where in fact battleships.

Not to even mention that some battle-cruisers where at least ,if not more deadly than battleships.

Like I said before Germany had in 1939 2 post WWI BB's 2 WWI BB's and 3 pocket battleships. With 11 Battleships in production.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... r-1939.htm

in the game Germany gets 2 BBII's and two more at a later date ( i think). Which is less BB's than they actually had and almost no way to build anymore unlike the west which can build as much as they want once the USA comes online.
According to your way of thinking Germany should have in 1939 2 BBII, and 5 BBI with two BB3 at a later time to represent the Bismarck class.

I Think this is more that your upset because Germany took a gamble and got lucky than it is an unbalance of the game. and what surprises me is that you where not even the player that suffered the losses and yet your upset about them and the player who took the losses understands that sometimes things just don't go your way.

/cheers

PS: I have been thinking about this all night, and wanted to add something else.

Playing this game we the players and especially the western players have an advantage knowing that all of the things that where huge surprises in WWII are coming. The element of surprise that hurt the west so badly in WWII is gone. So you have to do somethings artificially to even things out.

I remember last year when Explorer was first starting this upgrade. that he explained his reasoning for giving Germany BBII's instead of the total count of WWI BB's. There where two factors involved.
The first being supply. in the game all those BB's would have taken more supply and to compensate he would have had to up Germany supply production which would have had a larger effect on the late game.
The second is that during the war Britain gave the Germany navy far more respect than history proved they deserved, by allocating a large part of their navy to do nothing more than be prepared for the German navy should they come out. This was the main importance of the Tirpitz in WWII. Simply tying up a huge amount of allied naval forces by doing nothing. This fear or respect cant be replicated in the game.

Explorers solution was to give Germany the BBII's and a few Cruiser II. Making the German navy just powerful enough to cause some real damage if given the chance but not powerful enough to really do anything else.

And as the above battle shows he has accomplished this.
As the western player you have to always respect the German navy until you sink it or you can take some serious losses. However you don't really have to worry about the German navy ever doing much of anything else.(except for the wolfpacks)
And with the penalties applied to the Germans if they don't invade Russia by a certain time its impossible for Germany to really build more capital ships or any carriers at all. And still have a chance at defeating Russia and winning the game.

its a fine balancing act and I think that Explorer has just about got it right.

[Josh]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

I see you already bought Bomber2, but personally I'd go for Fighter2, because airsuperiority is everything. Bomber2 might pay off though, it's a gamble.

[abulbulian]

Don't have a lot of time for this post. But the larger issue is the casualties taken by a pure air force vs a pure naval force (no air) and this is in 1939!

Consider this:
- on the scale of WaW, that battle fought was like the German navy shooting down over 100 planes.
- 1939 most naval vessels had small amount of AA considering, remember these ships were laid down many many years before they were completed. Thus, the naval thinking at the time was that planes can't sink big ships. Doolittle was one of those 'radical' thinkers that was able, early on, to prove them all wrong.
- so in 1939, these ships had very little chance to shoot down more than a handful of planes, nothing even remotely close to 100+ (given even best random mod).
- yes, later in war many ships were refitted with 2x, 3x the AA compliment to deal with the no very real concern about planes vs ships. But even then it was still considered absolutely crazy to send ships in range of enemy air with no air cover!
- you won't find any battle of pure ships (no air, no CVs) vs a decent size air force, which had any sort of success against it. Just never happened and especially not in 1939 when ships had such a small compliment of AA to make room for the larger caliber guns.
- USA even started making CLAA class ships to give a fleet some extra protection against air

conclusion: naval vs air in WaW 4T is still broken and should be addresses as it's a key component in the realism factor for WWII.

[bwheatley]

Yea the german ships that came out were pretty awesome beasts. I've seen the armored cruiser debate and i agree they would probably be cruisers based on their small caliber guns but since they were supposed to have bigger guns i get the BB class. In the end though they were good ships and they whooped a lot of ass. The bismarck ripping the hood to pieces was a fine example. Yes Hood was only a BC from 1918 but she was the pride of the british navy and it was a huge morale blow.

Funny that some old bi planes helped bring her down .

After working on modding WaW to add weather system and a few other things that ara and I liked i agree its a fine balancing act. It's a fun game and while i think there are things that will always be able to be updated i have fun playing.

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

LOL, the Scharnhorst class were hardly BBII's. Maybe according to German propaganda, but they were nothing compared to the Bismark class. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered armored cruisers, not battleships. Check out the specs on them and get back to me. Once again some research please? Don't even talk about the Bismark because she wasn't commissioned until Aug 1940. But actually still need to finish outfitting and training thus wasn't ready for service until 41. The Tirpitz was later and near 42 when she was ready for sea.


The raid on Taranto was done at night and against a port that was considered to be heavily armed with light and heavy AA. Yes, the allies had surprise for the first wave and the ships were in port. Still, it showed that air power was now the dominate factor in naval actions. Too bad the British didn't learn from this before they tried to sneak Force Z to help against the invasion of Malaysia. The Japanese air force made quick work of that force which consisted of the Prince of Wales and Repulse.

OH my.

I think I detect a challenge here.

as for research I believe I added links where you could read for yourself where I got my info and I see none in your post.

But since you choose not to read my references I will in this one case point out where you are wrong.

while you are right that I was incorrect on when the Tirpitz and Bismarck where commissioned I was also wrong on when they where launched. BOTH where launched in 1939.

The Tirpitz was launched on April 1, 1939 and the Bismarck was launched on February 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Tirpitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

In this game we have WWI battleships which are level 1 and level 2 Battleships which are battleships built AFTER WWI and where upgradable.

Both Scharnhorst Class BB"s where built after WWI and both received multiple upgrades throughout their service that makes them BBII's.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... r-1939.htm



As far them being nothing more than armored cruisers as you claim I find that they had the same armor as a battleship and 11" guns that the British want to classify as cruisers. So show me clear proof that they deserve to only be classified as cruisers.
also these two Battleships had far more lucrative careers than either the tirpitz or the Bismark, sinking a British Aircraft carrier and her escorts. The HMS Glorious in june of 1940.
Not to mention that both where supposed to have larger guns installed but where rushed through production and wound up with the smaller 11" guns.

They where in fact battleships.

Not to even mention that some battle-cruisers where at least ,if not more deadly than battleships.

Like I said before Germany had in 1939 2 post WWI BB's 2 WWI BB's and 3 pocket battleships. With 11 Battleships in production.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... r-1939.htm

in the game Germany gets 2 BBII's and two more at a later date ( i think). Which is less BB's than they actually had and almost no way to build anymore unlike the west which can build as much as they want once the USA comes online.
According to your way of thinking Germany should have in 1939 2 BBII, and 5 BBI with two BB3 at a later time to represent the Bismarck class.

I Think this is more that your upset because Germany took a gamble and got lucky than it is an unbalance of the game. and what surprises me is that you where not even the player that suffered the losses and yet your upset about them and the player who took the losses understands that sometimes things just don't go your way.

/cheers

PS: I have been thinking about this all night, and wanted to add something else.

Playing this game we the players and especially the western players have an advantage knowing that all of the things that where huge surprises in WWII are coming. The element of surprise that hurt the west so badly in WWII is gone. So you have to do somethings artificially to even things out.

I remember last year when Explorer was first starting this upgrade. that he explained his reasoning for giving Germany BBII's instead of the total count of WWI BB's. There where two factors involved.
The first being supply. in the game all those BB's would have taken more supply and to compensate he would have had to up Germany supply production which would have had a larger effect on the late game.
The second is that during the war Britain gave the Germany navy far more respect than history proved they deserved, by allocating a large part of their navy to do nothing more than be prepared for the German navy should they come out. This was the main importance of the Tirpitz in WWII. Simply tying up a huge amount of allied naval forces by doing nothing. This fear or respect cant be replicated in the game.

Explorers solution was to give Germany the BBII's and a few Cruiser II. Making the German navy just powerful enough to cause some real damage if given the chance but not powerful enough to really do anything else.

And as the above battle shows he has accomplished this.
As the western player you have to always respect the German navy until you sink it or you can take some serious losses. However you don't really have to worry about the German navy ever doing much of anything else.(except for the wolfpacks)
And with the penalties applied to the Germans if they don't invade Russia by a certain time its impossible for Germany to really build more capital ships or any carriers at all. And still have a chance at defeating Russia and winning the game.

its a fine balancing act and I think that Explorer has just about got it right.

[bwheatley]

Wellthe games over now

But yea i went NO vichy and then bomber 2. So ara was giving me grief telling me to go fighter 2.

Does anyone besides ara think the no vichy card is worth it? My reasoning is that it will give me a foothold on north africa where i can help close in on the italians from behind and give me another area that i can bring american reinforcements into fairly easily.

ORIGINAL: Josh

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

I see you already bought Bomber2, but personally I'd go for Fighter2, because airsuperiority is everything. Bomber2 might pay off though, it's a gamble.

[abulbulian]

You still don't get it with these German ACs. Don't get me wrong the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were very capable ships with great radar gunnery and speed.

But they had 11'' guns and not the same armor as a BBII (in WaW that is not a WWI battleship). They couldn't stand toe to toe with a UK BBII unless lucky, because a 14'' or 15'' gun can hit you further away. It's as simple as that almost. Granted there really is no ship class in WaW to put them that would do justice(CA would be insult) to them, so maybe BBII is fine. I give in to that. Remember most of their upgrades came post 39.

Either way, my previous post addresses my major concern.