Shattered Vow

[pat.casey]

I have to agree with the consensus here that using single ship task forces like this isn't inherently gamey. IMHO, something is only gamey if there's no practical counter to it, so things like pre-path nuclear artillery is gamey b/c there's not much you can do, but there are reasonable counters to single ship raiding and/or scounting.

Likewise I'm not a big fan of "you shouldn't do that in the game because the allies wouldn't have done that in real life" as a line of logic, largely because it seems like the Japanese are not constrained by that same rule. The kind of careful strategic defense that your opponent is playing here is diametrically opposed to both IJN doctrine and observable behavior. Historically, most any allied advance resulted in the local japanese air and sea forces immolating themselves in immediate counterattacks, not fading back slowly to keep a fleet in being and fight another day.

If you're going to be constrained not to put destroyers on "suicide" missions, then the japanese ought to be restained from using their ships in "dishonorable" missions, like avoiding combat with your carriers or sitting at anchor while your forces advance.

[Canoerebel]

7/4/44 and 7/5/44
 
Allied Carriers:  A sub put a torpedo into Saratoga.  Damage is light, but that's the second she's taken in the past month.  I'll likely send her to Capetown (or do you guys think ARD ships at Sydney could handle her?).  Saratoga will join Constellation in the yards - a subtraction of 180 aircraft in two weeks.  The KB lost CV Taiho and her 72 aircraft, an IJN CVL was torpedoed and is probably in the yards, and the Allies have added about five CVEs in the past two weeks - but overall this makes me less willing to seek a carrier engagement.  For now, I think the Allied carriers will continue to operate in waters where LBA can fly LRCAP.  That's okay short term because the next Allied operation (invasion of Samarinda) is in acceptable waters.

Japanese Subs:  The Allies did sink the offending sub plus another (but CLAA Atlanta ate two torpedoes).  Miller has lost well over 100 subs in the game, but IJN subs are still pesky.

Celebes:  The Allies have nearly wiped out the remaining IJA troops at Makassar. Up between Pare Pare and Madjene, a New Zealand brigade routed a demoralized and battle-weary IJA contingent.  On Celebes, the Japanese are down to Madjene (which they won't hold long) and Leowek (which I've bypassed and will probably ignore).

Samarinda Invasion Force: Loading at Manado may be complete in time for the ships to get underway next turn; if not, then the turn after.

Thailand:  The Allies have blown a gaping hole in the Japanese MLR - the road to the east is open to Udon and the Allies just seized the base behind it by paratroop assault (50th Indian).   The Allied force moving on Udon is overwhelming and should be able to blast through and continue east into Cambodia and Vietnam.  The road to the northeast is open to Udon Thnai.  The Allied force heading that way isnt't much larger than the garrison, but I hope applying pressure along several vectors complicates Miller's life.  Also, I'm in open terrain now and two armored units are moving fast.  They have proven useful in cutting roads and supply lines. 

[crsutton]

Canoerebel.
 
At this point in the game, how many P38s are you producing a month? B25?
 
Thanks.

[Canoerebel]

I'll look next time I get a turn, but both P-38 and B-25 production is meager at this point in the war.  Nearly all Allied fighter production is P-47 and P-40N (the former, of course, are excellent).  Nearly all bomber production is B-24 (which is also excellent).
 
I only have a few P-38 squadrons left on the map.

[Canoerebel]

Things are about to get very, very interesting.  I've issued orders, I've "girded up my loins," and one or the other of us will be toasting this turn:
 
1)  Miller had two units garrisoning Samarinda - a total of 12,000 men.  He pulled the bigger of the two out to reinforce Balikpan (I find that move odd because I haven't even tried an attack there yet and can't until I bring reinforcements).  So Samarinda is suddenly open...at the same time I have just completed loading an invasion force prepped for Samarinda.  This force weighs anchor at Manado tonight and should arrive at Samarinda the day after tomorrow.  The force includes two division equivalents, so if it gets ashore Samarinda will fall.
2)  But Miller has 400 aircraft at Balikpan, 200 at Tarakan, and the KB is lurking.  My invasion fleet will be covered by LRCAP from Donggala and Gorontolo, plus the Allied carriers will take the chance and move north into the Makassar Strait, taking station just east of Balikpan.  I'm willing to take on LBA, but if the KB chooses this moment to sally forth, I will be in trouble.
3)  B-24 bombers will try to suppress the Tarakan airfield.
4)  The South Borneo invasion transports are pulling back to near Kendari while all this happens.
5)  The base taken by 50th Indian 'chutes last turn is in Indochina - not Vietnam proper, but I *think* within the boundaries needed to trigger activation of the Indochina defenses.  That's fine, as I'm going to have to face them sooner or later.  They begin the game weak, though, and a major Allied army is bearing down on Vietnam from the West.
6)  The Chinese army that lately retired from the unsuccessul seige of Nanning is moving cross country towards the Vietnam border.  I intend to move on Hanoi.

[Nemo121]

Question: Is this the first time Miller has complained about your moves etc or is there a history here? I find it difficult to fathom why he is holding on so strongly to this viewpoint unless there's a previous history...

I give you odds that if the IJNAF and IJAAF combine in a co-ordinated strike Miller won't complain that's gamey. *sigh*

[Canoerebel]

There have been a few instances where gaminess has been discussed in the game; not many, considering how far we've played into the game, but a few.
 
I made the strongest protest when Miller stripped Manchuria of artillery and blasted a hole through my MLR in China.  (He used 18 artillery units to obliterate a strongly fortified base that until then hadn't been seriously threatened.  As a result of the fall of that city, the entire MLR in northern China became untenable and the Chinese were routed).
 
I also pointed out that strategic bombing had wiped out 75% of Chinese industry, making supply impossible.  I wasn't asking that Miller halt it, just pointing out that it had crippled me.  He took umbrage at that and pointed out that the Allies had knocked out a few oil points at Miri and another base or two early in the war.
 
On the other hand, I have tried to avoid things that might be gamey.  I self-imposed a rule requiring payment of political points to move restricted Allied units into Burma; I did not abandon cities with garrison requirements (Rangoon, for instance) in hopes that partisans would destroy industry.  And I have carried over the old WitP 4EB at a minumum of 10k when on naval strike (not sure it's necessary, but didn't want to take the chance).
 
Miller's strongest protest came when I resumed offensive operations in China after he had declared a ceasfire.  I hadn't asked for a ceasefire, and I told him that I would attack when possible, but he apparently felt that a ceasefire was in effect.  He requested three days to get his troops ready, but I gave him either two or three weeks to avoid him feeling like I had taken advantage of the situation.
 
That's been about it in the game.

[Nemo121]

Ah, yes, I remember now... Well as you know I disagreed with your view on some of those issues but on this I think there's no gameyness at all and you should reserve the right to keep doing these raids. It is his job to stop you.

By the same token though when he shoots down shedloads of your improperly trained pilots or destroys many of your ships with correctly employed subs that's not gamey or a sign of poor game design either. Fairness cuts both ways.

Anyways, I wish you the best with the game as it continues.

[Canoerebel]

7/6/44 and 7/7/44
 
A quiet turn, much to my delight, but I think the quiet is about to end:
 
Samarinda:  The invasion force neared the island - one transport TF even began landing troops.  The defenses are so weak that there wasn't an enemy artillery attack (those are automatic when any ground troops are present).  This confirms that the garrison is weak, but alot is going to happen now.  The main Allied transports will arrive next turn.  If they have even one day to unload, the invasion should succeed. But I think Miller will commit the KB - the only question I have is from which direction?  South from the Java Sea or north from the Sulu Sea?   I plan to keep my carriers on station unless, when I get the actual turn file, something really looks bad.
 
Tarakan:  B-24s hammered the airfield so that it should be inoperational for a few days.
 
Thailand:  The rapid Allied advance to the east and northeast continues.  Miller is hitting my troops with LBA.  I know he's scrambling to pull together some kind of defense.  The problem for him is that his closest troop concentrations (Bangkok and Saigon) are much further from the scene than are my troops.  I don't know yet whether the Allies can make it all the way to the coast

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

it's not realistic to argue that detection is, or ought to be, equal regardless of the size or value of an asset.

Agreed, I didn't argue that and that's not how the game model works. A single BB will be more easily spotted than a single DD.

And, despite my incredibly tortured wording, that is what I meant as well.[:)]

One coastwatcher with a radio can detect a battlegroup with twenty ships. The battlegroup is exposed, the coastwatcher is essentially immune. A PT boat with a radio. A sub. All detections are not equal two-way streets.

We agree.

[Nemo121]

Bullwinkle, Indeed we do [8D]

[ny59giants]

Since the issue of having a single DD act as recon/bait is still an issue (AI doesn't give them much respect), I would suggest that you use 2 DDs as the AI treats them differently.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Since the issue of having a single DD act as recon/bait is still an issue (AI doesn't give them much respect), I would suggest that you use 2 DDs as the AI treats them differently.

IF the 1-ship AI code issue is true, that would swing my vote over to 2-ships as well. IF it is a thing. I have not seen 1-ship forces, commonly merchants in my case, ignored by air attack. But my sample size when the attacker was planes and not a sub is small.

Two-ship TFs can also tear the guts out of most late-war Japanese small convoys, with "E"s and "PB"s escorting. Run twenty or thirty of them up into the Sulu Sea from Balikpapan (Real Soon Now) and see how he likes it.

[CaptBeefheart]

A sub put a torpedo into Saratoga. Damage is light, but that's the second she's taken in the past month. I'll likely send her to Capetown (or do you guys think ARD ships at Sydney could handle her?).

Those ARDs are great for flotation damage, but that's it. So, if you have any major engine damage you'll need to send it to a bigger port to take care of.

[JeffroK]

I think your tactic is different, not gamey. Would anyone complain about an AMC doing laps of Borneo?

At least it isnt a CA/CL with aircraft doing spotting.

Its probably similar to the IJN putting a CVS in a Carrier force to take up the burden of search duties, dont think it ever happened, doesnt mean it cant.

As for CR's style, I never seen anyone do so much to keep his opponent happy, replaying turns, allowing time for a Chinese defence to set up etc and reasonably calmly, deal with opponents who strip Manchuria of artillery or try to load KB with 100% fighters, even those that are not carrier capable.

Keep going Dan, I'm glad you studied Grant's Richmond campaign, or is it Haig on the Somme?

[Canoerebel]

Big turn tomorrow - if the game permits invasion ships to unload at Samarinda (see my query thread in the main AE area).  I checked Q-Ball's AAR and confirmed that he invaded Samarinda, so I think I'm good.  Orders for the day:
 
1)  Invasion TFs are just one hex east of Samarinda, which is not garrisoned (except for a non-combat unit).  No matter what happens in the way of carriers and combat ships, enough troops should get ashore on the morning of the first day to take this base no matter what happens (unless Miller somehow moves a unit from Balikpan in one day despite bad roads).
 
2)  I am risking some combat ships and transports with this invasion, but it is worth it.  If Samarinda falls, Balikpan's fate is sealed.
 
3)  Allied carriers will move south and take station about four hexes southeast of Balikpan (and not that far from friendly waters around Makassar).
 
4)  Allied LBA from Donggala, Gorontalo, Polapo, and Watampone will offer as much LRCAP assistance as possible.

[Q-Ball]

Good luck! You can land at Samarinda. I might be the only other one who knows exactly where Donngla, Garontalo, Palopo, and Watampone are.

What next after taking Balikpapan? If memory serves, you are clear up to Talaud Island. Balikpapan is not quite close enough to bomb or close Palembang. You're getting to the point where I was: Either moving into the Phillipines, or moving toward the Oil. Phillipines is more important, but the other way will encounter less resistance.

[John 3rd]

The move would be irritating but I agree with the rest in just fixing it to pick-off those lone ships. Perhaps--if there is a code issue--go to the 2 DD TF but it is up to your opponent to sink them. How hard would it be to simply put a Chutai of Vals along the route and plaster the offending ship? He just needs to adjust his tactics there.

[Canoerebel]

7/8/44 and 7/9/44
 
Samarinda:  The invasion is going remarkably well.  All ships - much to my relief - were able to make their way up "river" to the hex and got their troops unloaded in good shape.  There was no appearance by the KB of IJN combat ships (I'm pretty surprised).  LBA managed to damage or sink three our four low-value transports.  The Allies have 800 AV ashore - some of it 100% prepped and the rest about 40%.  I think the base will fall even if Miller manages to get a unit across the river from Balikpan (which would result in a shock attack on his part, too).
 
Effect:  If Samarinda falls, that seals the fate of Balikpan.  I'll have a ready source of reinforcements that I can shift to the latter.  Once the Allies get ahold of both bases, that makes moves to the next bases up the coast (Tarakan) or down the coast (Banjermasin) much easier.
 
Allied Carriers:  There was no action this turn, but a sub did put two TT into CV Intrepid, doing moderate damage.  She made Makassar where I'll keep her under cover for awhile.  I've temporarily lost three carriers in three weeks.  Another five or ten CVE are on the way.  Hancock and Ticonderoga should make it to theater in about three months.  Until then, though, there's no getting frisky with my carriers.
 
Speaking of Which:  I just sent the turn to Miller and he replied:  "Are you carriers staying on station?  If so, this will be a big turn."  Well, they aren't.  They are retiring to a point near Makassar from a point SE of Balikpan.  I don't know if that will be close enough to allow engagement, but possibly so.  No matter what happens, though, I will be very pleased (and relieved) that the Allies were able to put together the Samarinda operation so quickly (and apparently successfully).
 
Thailand:  Allied troops are nearing the hexes adjancent to the IJA garrisons east (Udon) and northeast (Udon Thani).  I feel pretty sure the Allies will plow through Udon, the more important of the two, and then continue on to Vietnam.  Udon Thani is a little more iffy.  The Chinese army that will move on Hanoi from the north should near the border in about a week.  I have no idea if Miller has stripped the region and sent troops south or if he anticipates a move like this.  It'll be fun to see. 

[Canoerebel]

7/10/44 and 7/11/44
 
A very good two-day turn for the Allies:
 
Samarinda:  This base falls without any real opposition.  The Allies can move most of these troops over to Balikpan, have an operational airfield, and can land future Balik-bound troops at a friendly port.
 
Carriers:  No clash between the two forces.  The KB approached the scene from the south (Java Sea).  Allied ASW hammered several Japanese subs, none of which scored any hits.  The Allied carriers finished the turn a few hexes south of Makassar.  I don't think Miller dares venture any further east due to Allied LBA - too, the Allied carriers put up a CAP of about 500 Hellcats and 200+ other fighters, so it's still a potent force despite the damage incurred by Intrepid, Saratoga, and Constellation (speaking of which, Constellation is ten days away from Capetown, Saratoga is about a week from Perth, and Intrepid is disbanded at Makassar waiting for the area to quiet down a bit).
 
LBA:  Alot of Japanese LBA sortied.  Raids targeting Allied shipping around Manado and Makassar got chewed up by overwhelming CAP.  Raids targeting lightly protected "low-value" transports at Donggala scored and probably sank a dozen ships.  Overall, the Japanese probably lost more points on aircraft than the Allies did on ships.
 
Strategic Situation:  The past month has seen rather marked progress for the Allies in the DEI as Kendari, Makassar, and Samarinda have fallen and stout armies have been landed at Balikpan and Sampit.  These were accomplished at very acceptable cost.  
 
The Allies have suffered enough carrier attrition that they won't chance any "forward thrusts" in the near future, but will be content to work on Balikpan along with considering further action against Sampit, Banjermasin and possibly the Java bases east of Soerabaja if the KB isn't lurking.
 
In SEAC, the Allies will continue to press their advantages in Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam until they run up against bases to strong to take.  I think the Allies will be threatening some of the "middle" Vietnam cities in the next month or so.