I brought this up a while ago in a different thread.
I think that it should be adjusted into weeks. Or something else. It just seems rather strange to colonize 100 worlds or grow 110x over a meagre 10-15 years! And fit in all the wars etc that constitute this fantastic game.
But, I think that the1sean got it. The days and weeks and years are simply NOT based on the Sol/Earth timescale.
Which is too bad IMO.
Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
DJ Swagger
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
See, this is why most OTHER games don't actually have any attempt to tie things to real-months or real-years, they just use some kind of metric-based time: It is 2400.00. A turn is .01. We're not going to bother explaining .01 what. Because no one really cares.ORIGINAL: Bartje
I agree with Fishman but I will say that the game should explain this better.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
Time scale for population growth isn't horribly off. If we had a world with no wars, no famine, and increased life span our population would grow exponentially until we started having those problems again. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question for the population to double or triple every 20-30 years. If we went back to the times when families had 10 kids each, the effect would be even more tremendous, and its not out of the question if in a futuristic society there are less problems with feeding and providing for children.
Ship building can be decently explained by the fact that all the components are completely modular. Since all of our ships are using mostly the same components, we have production lines spitting out 1 hyperdrive every day or 1 reactor every day in just the same way all of the standard items we produce are made today. The only work left is putting the modular components together. Obviously this isn't really represented well if at all in the game, but I would say its simply an abstraction.
Ship building can be decently explained by the fact that all the components are completely modular. Since all of our ships are using mostly the same components, we have production lines spitting out 1 hyperdrive every day or 1 reactor every day in just the same way all of the standard items we produce are made today. The only work left is putting the modular components together. Obviously this isn't really represented well if at all in the game, but I would say its simply an abstraction.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
IMO the population growth is well done in DW. Look at the growth rates for planets with large populations, in my current game a human planet with 5.2 billion has 3%, another planet with 2 billion has 5%. In real life we have 6.8 billion with 1%. DW is a high tech universe, where planets access a fully space based economy with endless resources, plenty of health care for everybody can be assumed. In smaller colonies growth breeding is the major colonial policy, and one can easily imagine that they can use medical tech to fill empty planets. Human beings can be very prolific, and 15% in a post scarcity economy is doable, if you somehow convince women to play along. With SF medical technology everything is possible, with perfect artificial (or natural) conception, effortless births, artificial wombs, cloning and so on. Remember you have unlimited resources and a hundred planets plus space stations.
The timeframes are ok too, if days become weeks, refueling large fleets will take a year or longer if the rest of the game is unchanged. Then I would propose to make the game relativistic, that is sublight, no FTL drives.
The timeframes are ok too, if days become weeks, refueling large fleets will take a year or longer if the rest of the game is unchanged. Then I would propose to make the game relativistic, that is sublight, no FTL drives.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
I disagree do not change the time....Leave as is.[:-]
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
ORIGINAL: Roller
IMO the population growth is well done in DW. Look at the growth rates for planets with large populations, in my current game a human planet with 5.2 billion has 3%, another planet with 2 billion has 5%. In real life we have 6.8 billion with 1%. DW is a high tech universe, where planets access a fully space based economy with endless resources, plenty of health care for everybody can be assumed. In smaller colonies growth breeding is the major colonial policy, and one can easily imagine that they can use medical tech to fill empty planets. Human beings can be very prolific, and 15% in a post scarcity economy is doable, if you somehow convince women to play along. With SF medical technology everything is possible, with perfect artificial (or natural) conception, effortless births, artificial wombs, cloning and so on. Remember you have unlimited resources and a hundred planets plus space stations.
The timeframes are ok too, if days become weeks, refueling large fleets will take a year or longer if the rest of the game is unchanged. Then I would propose to make the game relativistic, that is sublight, no FTL drives.
Within the space of 10-20 years in DW, you can increase your population exponentially. GalCiv at least explained this as being "taxpayers". DW doesn't do that. It really makes no sense.
The construction times are even worse, given that a colony ship holds millions of people, providing us with our only clue as to how big these ships are.
It really isn't worth debating. The growth rates are off for an sense of realism (they aren't 5% annualized anyway; i have no idea what the percent means or what time frame its measuring). But if people don't care, they don't care.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
No need to fix it. I don't even look at it when playing.
Building a new PC.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
It may not need to be fixed but it would help if it is expained!
Just make it sound plausible in some way.
Perhaps we've just misunderstood the intention / concept [;)].
That would help. [:)]
Just make it sound plausible in some way.
Perhaps we've just misunderstood the intention / concept [;)].
That would help. [:)]
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
Speaking of timescale: When do we get the taxes? And what is the Income meant to represent. Is it net per year or month or what? Im confused! Often the money comes like a floodgate at an odd time.I would rather it trickle in personally.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
The massive population explosion is because of the huge population growth rate. Humans default rate is 14%, which is 7 times more than it has ever been in the real world and 10 times more than it currently is.
Insectoid races could of course have very high rates of reproduction, but real insects are killed by the billions every day. If they became sentient they would overrun the earth and destroy their own food supply. No amount of intelligence could save a race from the rapid depletion of resources (food) caused by 20% population growth or even the 14% that humans have. They would starve themselves out of existence.
Cloning is illogical and makes no sense. Why would any race clone themselves on such a scale that they could no longer sustain themselves?
They can do it in a game because its a game. There is no real world rationale for doing so or being able to do so.
Also, there is no mention or implication of cloning in the game and therefor no reason to suppose it is there.
Solution! : Drop the reproduction rates by 5-7x by editing the race file in your install of DW. Works perfectly.
Insectoid races could of course have very high rates of reproduction, but real insects are killed by the billions every day. If they became sentient they would overrun the earth and destroy their own food supply. No amount of intelligence could save a race from the rapid depletion of resources (food) caused by 20% population growth or even the 14% that humans have. They would starve themselves out of existence.
Cloning is illogical and makes no sense. Why would any race clone themselves on such a scale that they could no longer sustain themselves?
They can do it in a game because its a game. There is no real world rationale for doing so or being able to do so.
Also, there is no mention or implication of cloning in the game and therefor no reason to suppose it is there.
Solution! : Drop the reproduction rates by 5-7x by editing the race file in your install of DW. Works perfectly.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
You clone because there is room for growth and a nessicity to populate all those new and empty planets.
You don't want others to overrun those nice empty planets do you?
Its quite efficient for space agers to clone pop instead of relying on natural growth cycles.
Why bother with parents at all if you clone educated adults just like that??
Just how this works in the DW universe hasn't been filled in by the developers unfortunately [:)]
You don't want others to overrun those nice empty planets do you?
Its quite efficient for space agers to clone pop instead of relying on natural growth cycles.
Why bother with parents at all if you clone educated adults just like that??
Just how this works in the DW universe hasn't been filled in by the developers unfortunately [:)]
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
The only perspective that makes sense from is the perspective of a person playing a game. People don't think about real life like that.
Besides, human society would never allow cloning like that to take place. If it did it would cease to be a human society.
As soon as humans are totally dispensable and replaceable they become also totally worthless, making them nothing more than smart cows.
As soon as people no longer have parents, they no longer have people who truly care about them. This combined with being completely replaceable in every way makes them totally worthless on a personal level.
Cloning as you described would end human society and collapse it's civilization.
Besides, human society would never allow cloning like that to take place. If it did it would cease to be a human society.
As soon as humans are totally dispensable and replaceable they become also totally worthless, making them nothing more than smart cows.
As soon as people no longer have parents, they no longer have people who truly care about them. This combined with being completely replaceable in every way makes them totally worthless on a personal level.
Cloning as you described would end human society and collapse it's civilization.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
Why would it lead to society's collapse? (I do agree it may be confusing if they look exactly alike! [:'(])
Individual Value:
It does not diminish an invdividual's value. (it may be perceived as lowering an individual value relative to other individuals but the clone & original are still unique; this is an illusion. They would be worth exactly what other non clones are worth; that is they are beyond valueing because they are unique. In other words, they are still economically scarce.)
A clone and the original are not the same person.
They are not identical. They are alike in every (relevant) aspect that we can visually observe But not identical.
A clone may develop into a genius with novel ideas and scientific applications while the original may be a depressed and deeply troubled individual.
Cloning does not replace an original creature, it shapes something else into a close likeness of the original. They are by no means identical.
Nothing can be in the same place at the same time right? By virtue of this natural law we may reason that there for nothing is identical and that everything is unique. This leads to the conclusion that everything, including life is scarce by simply existing in one form or another.
Following this line of reasoning cloning in this form could make perfect sense.
At the very least it could be controversial [:'(]
This could net DW some nice media attention [;)]
Still it would be a very effective way to create more people; far faster than traditional reproduction.
Plus it would keep women in the workforce and out of pregnency leave!
It really makes sense.
Besides; who says you won't somwhat randomize the genetic profile of the clone?
To return to your argument of society's collapse:
1 - A healthy society would make the distinction between individual potential & scarcity as opposed to the collective good. (the will of the group & its leaders)
2 - An unhealthy society would rule in favor of the collective good and against individual freedom (thus limiting individual potential & expression for the good of the group & its leaders)
In the second example it would indeed be far easier to use human beings as "cows" but that does not mean that it is the "right" or successfull model.
A healthy society would be far more vibrant, adaptive and "natural" than example 2.
In example 1, even if the individuals are clones they are still capable of developing and expressing freely and thus driving culture as well as technological progress.
Example 2 would inhibit this.
The only "society" that would succesfully implement model 2 is a bug society in which the individual does not exist and has no "potential" anyway.
In such a group the individual is merely an extension of the hive. The only invidual in such a society in essence would be the "hive mind".
This would be very nice to see in DW.
There is certainly a logical foundation for it! [:)]
In short: I logically cannot conclude that there is anything against cloning.
From a religious perspective I understand such a step would be drastic and perhaps disagreeable. (I am not religious this way though)
From a functional / moral & logical view I would vehemently support this because it is the rational thing to do.
What do we call people who hold faith over fact?
We usually call them insane and put them in institutions to "heal".
Other times we call them religous and let them try to convert others.
[;)]
I cannot help but wonder what perspective the developers have on this.
Erik or Elliot, if you read this by chance would you please comment [:D]
Anyone else?
Individual Value:
It does not diminish an invdividual's value. (it may be perceived as lowering an individual value relative to other individuals but the clone & original are still unique; this is an illusion. They would be worth exactly what other non clones are worth; that is they are beyond valueing because they are unique. In other words, they are still economically scarce.)
A clone and the original are not the same person.
They are not identical. They are alike in every (relevant) aspect that we can visually observe But not identical.
A clone may develop into a genius with novel ideas and scientific applications while the original may be a depressed and deeply troubled individual.
Cloning does not replace an original creature, it shapes something else into a close likeness of the original. They are by no means identical.
Nothing can be in the same place at the same time right? By virtue of this natural law we may reason that there for nothing is identical and that everything is unique. This leads to the conclusion that everything, including life is scarce by simply existing in one form or another.
Following this line of reasoning cloning in this form could make perfect sense.
At the very least it could be controversial [:'(]
This could net DW some nice media attention [;)]
Still it would be a very effective way to create more people; far faster than traditional reproduction.
Plus it would keep women in the workforce and out of pregnency leave!
It really makes sense.
Besides; who says you won't somwhat randomize the genetic profile of the clone?
To return to your argument of society's collapse:
1 - A healthy society would make the distinction between individual potential & scarcity as opposed to the collective good. (the will of the group & its leaders)
2 - An unhealthy society would rule in favor of the collective good and against individual freedom (thus limiting individual potential & expression for the good of the group & its leaders)
In the second example it would indeed be far easier to use human beings as "cows" but that does not mean that it is the "right" or successfull model.
A healthy society would be far more vibrant, adaptive and "natural" than example 2.
In example 1, even if the individuals are clones they are still capable of developing and expressing freely and thus driving culture as well as technological progress.
Example 2 would inhibit this.
The only "society" that would succesfully implement model 2 is a bug society in which the individual does not exist and has no "potential" anyway.
In such a group the individual is merely an extension of the hive. The only invidual in such a society in essence would be the "hive mind".
This would be very nice to see in DW.
There is certainly a logical foundation for it! [:)]
In short: I logically cannot conclude that there is anything against cloning.
From a religious perspective I understand such a step would be drastic and perhaps disagreeable. (I am not religious this way though)
From a functional / moral & logical view I would vehemently support this because it is the rational thing to do.
What do we call people who hold faith over fact?
We usually call them insane and put them in institutions to "heal".
Other times we call them religous and let them try to convert others.
[;)]
I cannot help but wonder what perspective the developers have on this.
Erik or Elliot, if you read this by chance would you please comment [:D]
Anyone else?
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
I thought Star Wars handled the whole cloning issue very well and find it to be believable. Many people have issues with cloning on several levels including religious and as self worth. As a species though we are alone, our perspective may change when and if we ever come into contact with another sentinet species. What do you think humans would think of a sentinent insectiod type species that may eat its own progeny in times of famine for example? [&:]
Oh...and thread successful derailed, we're awesome!
Oh...and thread successful derailed, we're awesome!
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
I rest my case [8D]
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Jaimoe_MatrixForum
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:59 am
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
ORIGINAL: Krelos
As soon as people no longer have parents, they no longer have people who truly care about them.
The Government will still love you!
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
And your friends! Your Girl friend!
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
Erik, I'm following the varius threads on potential bug fixes and improvements but I would most appreciate a list of your plans for improvement/fixes.
RE: Minor Request: Fix the Time Scale
Sup Guy's!!
To J SCOTT
I like that idea also.[:D] Maybe there could be a slider or box check for stanard time or slowed time frame/rate.. ?
The game does seem to go a little fast. I never play at normal speed .
I play on 0.50X most of the time ,sometime's 0.25X when in late game.
WM
To J SCOTT
I like that idea also.[:D] Maybe there could be a slider or box check for stanard time or slowed time frame/rate.. ?
The game does seem to go a little fast. I never play at normal speed .
I play on 0.50X most of the time ,sometime's 0.25X when in late game.
WM
Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments.
Frederick the Great
Frederick the Great