Why not free production?

[Skanvak]

What if Stalin hadn't purged the Red Army?

He would have been overthrown.

[DavidTheGreat]

I think the Marshal's edition will bring us what we need ( at a 40 dollar cost )

[janh]

ORIGINAL: SnowBlue88

Meh, seems like most players who want free production only consider the German side of the situation and want a system where they can only do historically better. No one really seems to care how complex such a system has to be or provide an idea that wont screw what was historically possible. Keep in mind that a Soviet player will also have similar options and in the end you are going to end up in situations that would seem atrocious from a historical point of view, like Panther equipped division fighting JSIII and T-44 Tank Corps. Anyways to truly affect production as the 3rd Reich certain drastic changes would have to be made that would seem even more unhistorical, like mobilizing women. 

Some people might want these options but I think having that much change would just seem odd. Why not also include the whole political aspect and allow the Nazi's to recognize Ukraine and the Soviets to abolish commissars right from the beginning?

Sure, that is the point: To make a fighting as a German interesting beyond 1943, i.e. give it a reasonable prospect of fighting for something beyond knowing that you'll just be overrun by masses and can't do anything about it anyways, you have to add some "features" that allow you to change history. Otherwise playing beyond 1943 is pointless from a German point of few since you just can reduce it to a numbers game. So being able to change production lines, and do different or better than history is crucial for me. I just don't want to simply "replay" history. Manipulating R&D would have been an awesome progress along the lines of WITP that would have been a cherry on the cake, but unfortunately for me a big part of the cake is missing now. Same as with the abstract West and Southern Fronts, which gave you some opportunities to try things that you can't if you just have to do with what you got. I would also have considered it a worthy advancement to enhance those ideas, rather than to remove them.

I understand your principles to put players into the role of OKH/STAVKA and keep everything as historical as possible. I would, however, have much preferred that you make that an optional choice at the beginning of the game, and allow other players to tamper with production, R&D, transfers if they'd like to in much the same, or even enhanced ways compared to WiR. Well, but the decision decision is what it is now. I will surely keep watching the next few month and see how well the AI really does after release, and whether people can mod some of the things that from my point of view are missing.

[Neal_MLC]

For what it is worth, I vote no free production. That would better left for a War in Europe type but then you would have to do production for everyone and I just don't see that happening either.
I do have a question though.  What effects do moving factories or strategic bombing have on historically based production?
sorry if this has been already asked.

[Helpless]

What effects do moving factories or strategic bombing have on historically based production?
sorry if this has been already asked.

When adjusting historical figures we trying to estimate the impact of factory evacuation and some bombing which took place. It means that in some cases the production can get higher or lower, depending on game events - enemy advances/bombings.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: janh

[I understand your principles to put players into the role of OKH/STAVKA and keep everything as historical as possible. I would, however, have much preferred that you make that an optional choice at the beginning of the game, and allow other players to tamper with production, R&D, transfers if they'd like to in much the same, or even enhanced ways compared to WiR. Well, but the decision decision is what it is now. I will surely keep watching the next few month and see how well the AI really does after release, and whether people can mod some of the things that from my point of view are missing.

It seems that people complaining about the lack of "free production" forget that only aircraft and AFVs are based on historical production in WitE. This is not WitP where aircraft and ships accounted for the greatest portion of your combat capability. Most of the production in WitE goes into things that are not aircraft & AFVs and most of your strength lies in your infantry and artillery. Getting more advanced aircraft or tanks earlier or more of one type of aircraft or tank than historical simply won't matter. There is just too much of everything else out there. The notion that somehow if only there was "free production" the German player could be competitive late into the War is a myth based on a comparatively weak simulation (WIR) of the conflict.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: janh

[I understand your principles to put players into the role of OKH/STAVKA and keep everything as historical as possible. I would, however, have much preferred that you make that an optional choice at the beginning of the game, and allow other players to tamper with production, R&D, transfers if they'd like to in much the same, or even enhanced ways compared to WiR. Well, but the decision decision is what it is now. I will surely keep watching the next few month and see how well the AI really does after release, and whether people can mod some of the things that from my point of view are missing.

It seems that people complaining about the lack of "free production" forget that only aircraft and AFVs are based on historical production in WitE. This is not WitP where aircraft and ships accounted for the greatest portion of your combat capability. Most of the production in WitE goes into things that are not aircraft & AFVs and most of your strength lies in your infantry and artillery. Getting more advanced aircraft or tanks earlier or more of one type of aircraft or tank than historical simply won't matter. There is just too much of everything else out there. The notion that somehow if only there was "free production" the German player could be competitive late into the War is a myth based on a comparatively weak simulation (WIR) of the conflict.

I totally agree with jaw!! German industry was not set up to be changed on the fly. It took years to do anything of that proportion. They didn't have a GM retooling their factories every year to make new models. Everything they did was hand built or hand made like camera's and watches, why there was only 1500 Tiger I's and 500 Tiger II's. So hashing out this question of free production is bupkiss, plain and simple.

My pet peeve with this game is not having Adolph or Joey bumping my elbow as I try to execute a fancy manuever. But that's for another thread.

[Capt Cliff]

Oh, no wait. I changed my mind. Let's have free production. So you can change everything, but when you go to execute your changes you always get a message that reads .." The Fuher Adolph Hitler (or Joesph Stalin) has veto'd your requests, please try again next month."  
 

[vinnie71]

Actually one of Germany's biggest problems in WWII was not that it was unable to produce massive amounts of single/standard weapons (look at Me109) but that there were a lot of turf wars going on. Meschersmitt vs everyone else in the aero industry and so on and so forth. All companies were little corporate empires and they constantly curried favour with the powers that be for contracts. They even produced weapons for different branches of the Wehrmacht exclusively (ex light weapons for the Paras were different from the rest including the introduction of a proto assault rifle.) A man like Speer did a lot in cutting through bureaucracy and fences, but even he couldn't really manage to cut down all the waste, especially when one had a leader who just loved bigger toys... in all fairness, Germany only really started a war economy in about early '43 or so (some would actually debate that) and it still was afflicted by a lot political interventions etc from above.

Frankly at this point I haven't really understood how production would actually work in all its details, but what is obvious is that one has to wiegh carefully the cost/benefits of each offensive/defensive operation after the initial attacks since one could easily run out of replacements etc, which is realistic, considering the vastness of the theatre and the size of forces involved. I can already imagine that there could be a lot of formations well below their official strengths, exactly reflecting reality on both sides.

Actually what really should be optional in my opinion is not production per se, but rather the ability to change the basic to&e of a formation as war goes on. I think that players should be allowed to choose if for example allow German divisions type 42 turn in type 44. This is especially important since the Russians will get new corps of different kinds over time, while German formations would be progressively weakened. It would be very difficult even for a relatively victorious Wehrmacht to maintain its position if its formations weaken, even though they might be winning in a particular game.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder


Actually what really should be optional in my opinion is not production per se, but rather the ability to change the basic to&e of a formation as war goes on. I think that players should be allowed to choose if for example allow German divisions type 42 turn in type 44. This is especially important since the Russians will get new corps of different kinds over time, while German formations would be progressively weakened. It would be very difficult even for a relatively victorious Wehrmacht to maintain its position if its formations weaken, even though they might be winning in a particular game.

Actually what you are suggesting is a contradiction. The German player can't both be winning and still fighting in the later half of the War. If you are playing the '41 - '45 Campaign game you must win early or not at all. Assuming you fail to win a victory before late 1943, you are going to want that '44 Infantry division TOE to conserve manpower without sacrificing too much firepower.

[PyleDriver]

Guys let dead dogs lie, it won't happen. Hell lets get our boots on and kick this dog...It's dead...Get it yet?

[Neal_MLC]

I think beating a dead horse would be more effective[>:]

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

I think beating a dead horse would be more effective[>:]

This is Stalingrad January 43' ... we ate the horse so the discussion starts all over again!!

[wodin]

hehe...

Well I for one am very pleased there is no production....give me the tools to fight and I'm happy....not interested in building this or that...I want the end product to send into battle.

[SGHunt]

Having eaten my boots as well (it was really rather chilly), I want to be able influence boot production [;)].  

Actually I find the discussion still quite interesting, even though the decision is made and I agree with it.

Like the Capt, I would still like to see (the option of?) the odd randomly generated mad mullah (eg Grofaz and Uncle Joe) sacking of my best general for authorising an advance to the rear, and perhaps changing victory hexes as 'mad, take Stalingrad at all costs' type instructions.    I know... there are no plans at present!

Beta soon?

Stuart

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Having eaten my boots as well (it was really rather chilly), I want to be able influence boot production [;)].  

Actually I find the discussion still quite interesting, even though the decision is made and I agree with it.

Like the Capt, I would still like to see (the option of?) the odd randomly generated mad mullah (eg Grofaz and Uncle Joe) sacking of my best general for authorising an advance to the rear, and perhaps changing victory hexes as 'mad, take Stalingrad at all costs' type instructions.    I know... there are no plans at present!

Beta soon?

Stuart

Yo Stewie, I am with ya bud!!! Everyone has a boss or stupidvisor or dufuss to deal with at work ... so why shouldn't we playing WitE?? "It's good to be the King!!" Hope ya don't mind calling ya Stewie ... now shut up Meg!! [:D]

[Zemke]

I would prefer to control production just to test the "what if's", but I also understand, in order to get the economic model correct would take a LOT of programing or you get WiR issues.  I think the secondary effects of increasing production would be hard to model, we cannot even predict what our own economies are going to do today. 
 
German was not in a very good position to increase production much, and planned on a short war, frankly Germany had to have a short war to have any chance at winning, read Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, they cut themselves off from the very resources they needed and were getting from the USSR by invading the USSR, who had been very cooperative providing those resources.  German arrogance did not allow them to plan for the long term, as they had no doubts they would win.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: joliverlay
...The conversion of motorized divisions to panzer was one problem, losses was another, but lack of production was the big one.

The tank shortage was so severe that tank batallions were removed from the panzer divisons wholesale and later some of the remaining ones were replaced with assult guns because they were cheaper to produce. Not as effective for offensive operations, but better than nothing. It is pretty clear that the Germans would have benefited from streamlined production and keeping the TOE at a reasonable level. They might have done as well or better to have produced just the Mark IV in very large numbers.

Now that is why I liked to have the production system in WiR. Yes, it was crude, and yes, it could be gamey. But at the same time this and other crude features such as the abstracted allied bombing campaign or the West/southern fronts added a lot of potential and fun to the game. Without that, it probably would have been far less successful and maybe only attracted a tiny core of hardcore strategy gamers. And in that case I would guess you guys would today probably not be working on a successor. You could try ideas, and see how it might have changed things or not -- it is a game after all, as this here will also be a game with lots of approximations and abstractions.
Anyway, it remains to be seen "whether the new plate will be full enough" to warrant buying this game.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Offworlder


Actually what really should be optional in my opinion is not production per se, but rather the ability to change the basic to&e of a formation as war goes on. I think that players should be allowed to choose if for example allow German divisions type 42 turn in type 44. This is especially important since the Russians will get new corps of different kinds over time, while German formations would be progressively weakened. It would be very difficult even for a relatively victorious Wehrmacht to maintain its position if its formations weaken, even though they might be winning in a particular game.

Actually what you are suggesting is a contradiction. The German player can't both be winning and still fighting in the later half of the War. If you are playing the '41 - '45 Campaign game you must win early or not at all. Assuming you fail to win a victory before late 1943, you are going to want that '44 Infantry division TOE to conserve manpower without sacrificing too much firepower.

Actually no Jaw. What I'm suggesting is that it is possible that despite huge advances, even the seizure of say Moscow and Leningrad, the Russians could have held the Germans in a bloody stalemate. Their ability to create and recreate units was well known (and from what I can understand its well portrayed in the game), so it can be a possibility...

Would it be possible to have a screenshot to compare a '42 and a '44 type German infantry division? As you said, a lot of automatic weapons (and I believe artillery) was actually added in the latter to make up for less boots on the ground.

Tnx!

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

What if Stalin hadn't purged the Red Army?

He would have been overthrown.

Most doubtful.