ayyy-ayyy-ayyy.... Night Bombing!

[fbs]

I manage to defend my poor Wake Is against them nefarious terrorist invaders, but now my most excellent air groups are getting reduced to dust from night attacks.

Night attacks from the Japanese in 1941? So they fly 1000 miles over the ocean, find the island, find my air base in the dark and manage to hit the airplanes they can't see.

Is that right?

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: fbs


I manage to defend my poor Wake Is against them nefarious terrorist invaders, but now my most excellent air groups are getting reduced to dust from night attacks.

Night attacks from the Japanese in 1941? So they fly 1000 miles over the ocean, find the island, find my air base in the dark and manage to hit the airplanes they can't see.

Is that right?

Japanese lacking Radar have been training in night fighting for a very long time, Consider this - you take off and fly a specific baring for so many minutes, will you in fact not find something if the correct moonlight is allowed? Notice what happens when there is low moonlight - they tend to either miss the target completely, or don't even fly.

[RevRick]

Tain't quite that simple. Depends on winds as well, because enough offset could put you up light with low visibility and you could stumble around for a long time looking for a patch of ocean the size of Wake Island. Throw in a couple of left overs from Pacific thunderheads, and you could miss the entire US, or IJN fleet at night, and usually did.

[TheElf]

Singapore was bombed by the Japanese at night on the first night of the war. But that target was well lit...unfortunately we do not model blackouts.

[Xxzard]

On the topic of Singapore night bombing and blackouts:

I recall hearing from somewhere that when Singapore was first bombed, the lights of the British fortifications remained lit throughout the attack, because no one could remember where to find the lightswitch to turn them off. How's that for war readiness! [8|]

[Misconduct]

So are we saying night attacks are rendered way to accurate? Don't get me wrong I do agree, I can foresee one good bomb run in a few dozen in the circumstances, however I do recall a good half dozen to dozen accurate bomb runs at night.

However I don't believe wind is a factor in AE at all, so I would have to say a combination of moonlight, skill and experience are the factors for this, however after reading a few stories on washing machine charlie, I highly doubt the Japanese were that expert at making bomb runs at night.

/I do recall once night fighters were operational for the americans, these raids were stopped entirely (can't remember why or how)

[LoBaron]

This is something I was always wondering.
 
Is there a reason why it hard to implement penalties on night bombing missions that are about the same as thunderstorm
on 100% moonlight and deteriorate with diminishing moon?
I assume that things like these were tested because its an important part of the game. The Elf stated on several occasions
that night bombing is a bit too powerful and IIRC related this to stock witp code.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Singapore was bombed by the Japanese at night on the first night of the war. But that target was well lit...unfortunately we do not model blackouts.

Wake probably would be a bit harder to find

[Jaroen]

ORIGINAL: fbs


I manage to defend my poor Wake Is against them nefarious terrorist invaders, but now my most excellent air groups are getting reduced to dust from night attacks.

Night attacks from the Japanese in 1941? So they fly 1000 miles over the ocean, find the island, find my air base in the dark and manage to hit the airplanes they can't see.

Is that right?

Hi fbs! Am I right thinking you have doubts concerning 3 points specifically; flight range, navigation and bombing accuracy!? I think I'd agree with all of those but am currently having the benefit of the same issues flying the long range 4E monsters against the poor Japanese AI. So I'm restricting myself . . .

When fighting the Japs as the Allied you do need to have a little patience to get retribution. First you'll suffer for 6-12 months but then you'll return the damage manyfold!

Both sides are sharing the same advantages and disadvantages on these game model application. When on the receiving end it feels mighty unfair but when dealing out the damage it feels very satisfying. Personally I'd be happy with a little more historical performance of WitP:AE aircraft (less paper performance figures and more factual historical effectiveness) but I find it only a very minor matter to be concerned with.

Good luck!

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

So are we saying night attacks are rendered way to accurate? Don't get me wrong I do agree, I can foresee one good bomb run in a few dozen in the circumstances, however I do recall a good half dozen to dozen accurate bomb runs at night.

However I don't believe wind is a factor in AE at all, so I would have to say a combination of moonlight, skill and experience are the factors for this, however after reading a few stories on washing machine charlie, I highly doubt the Japanese were that expert at making bomb runs at night.

/I do recall once night fighters were operational for the americans, these raids were stopped entirely (can't remember why or how)

The rev was taliking about real life. What he was saying that it's just not as simple as setting the azmuth and time and then, Bingo!, you drop your bombs and hit the planes on Wake. IRL a night bombing group would have much more difficulty than is evident in the game. Just one more little game mechanic that isn't quite right in all situations. But, as I have said over and over, the game gets the strategic war amazingly correct, even if some of the detailed routines are a little off.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Singapore was bombed by the Japanese at night on the first night of the war. But that target was well lit...unfortunately we do not model blackouts.

And the bombs still all fell into the city vs. the harbor....which was the true target. [:D]

[spence]

Is there any actual evidence that the Japanese trained at flying night missions or is that just another assertion loosely connected to the fact that for 4 years the IJ a/c freely bombed Chinese cities. Given the opposition that they encountered in the air it actually seems like any effort they made to exploit the darkness in the name of lower casualties was entirely wasted. The simple fact that aircraft had a tendency to fall out of the sky relatively frequently in those days would not be in the least mitigated, would in fact be aggravated by night flying.

Finding an atoll the size of Wake after flying several hundred miles in the darkness with no aid to navigation other than DR (dead reckoning and there's a reason for that title) and celestial is easy enough in concept but quite difficult in practice. The best circumstances would involve plotting a series of running fixes to determine the wind direction and strength and then using those to plot an "actual" position relative to the island assuming all the while that the wind direction and strength remained unchanged throughout. Works like a charm in the navigation lab at school[;)].

[fbs]

ORIGINAL: spence

Is there any actual evidence that the Japanese trained at flying night missions or is that just another assertion loosely connected to the fact that for 4 years the IJ a/c freely bombed Chinese cities. Given the opposition that they encountered in the air it actually seems like any effort they made to exploit the darkness in the name of lower casualties was entirely wasted. The simple fact that aircraft had a tendency to fall out of the sky relatively frequently in those days would not be in the least mitigated, would in fact be aggravated by night flying.

Finding an atoll the size of Wake after flying several hundred miles in the darkness with no aid to navigation other than DR (dead reckoning and there's a reason for that title) and celestial is easy enough in concept but quite difficult in practice. The best circumstances would involve plotting a series of running fixes to determine the wind direction and strength and then using those to plot an "actual" position relative to the island assuming all the while that the wind direction and strength remained unchanged throughout. Works like a charm in the navigation lab at school[;)].

Yeah, and nevermind finding where I parked my 30-ft wide fighters in the dead of night, somewhere over here:



I'd say night bombing of a city, okie-dokies... of a large factory, err, so-and-so... but bombing an airfield at night should be close to impossible.

[Swenslim]

I agree especially when combat report says - 11 B-17 attacks 7 lvl airfield, 5 bomb hit - 2 Zero and 2 Oscars destroyed and 12 more damaged )

[michaelm75au]

Night bombing takes accuracy hits from plane damage, weather/clouds, pilot skill, group morale, flight disruption, non-city attack.
There is an increase in accuracy if target has a high Max DL.

The later is most likely the culprit for any excess in night bombing as we know that the max DL seems to be a runaway figure; the max DL check against the random 10 will always be true in these cases.

[Swenslim]

I still think that Night bombing must be changed. For now, you just need to make 2-3 night flights of 24 Libiraitors to destroy 7 lvl airfiled and destroy or damage more than 50% of planes there, even if it just 3 fighter squadrons and 1 level bomber squdron. I can call this game changer problem, because allied side without almost no losses can close all airfields in Burma (for example).

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

I still think that Night bombing must be changed. For now, you just need to make 2-3 night flights of 24 Libiraitors to destroy 7 lvl airfiled and destroy or damage more than 50% of planes there, even if it just 3 fighter squadrons and 1 level bomber squdron. I can call this game changer problem, because allied side without almost no losses can close all airfields in Burma (for example).

Have you put fighters on night CAP? My opponent did and shot down some of my bombers. It does help.

[treespider]

As to the original post and observations about flying 1000 miles (actually 620) to attack Wake at night...Interesting account from the USMC History.... pages 121-123

On 12 December the Japanese came to work early. Two four-engine Kawanishi patrol bombers arrived from Majuro at about 0500 and bombed and strafed Wake and Peale Islands. Bombs hit the airstrip but caused little damage. Captain Tharin, who had just taken off on the morning reconnaissance patrol, intercepted one of the big flying boats and shot it down. After this raid the Wake defenders went on with their work. Beach defenses were improved on Wilkes, and the ordnance officer, Gunner Harold C. Borth, serviced Battery L's battered 5-inch guns. At the airfield Lieutenant Kinney managed to patch up one of VMF-221's cripples, and this brought the strength of the Wake air force up to three planes. Such work continued for the remainder of the day. To the surprise of everyone on the atoll, the


--121--

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enemy did not arrive for the usual noon raid.3

This freedom from attack was a welcome and profitable interlude for the garrison. Captain Freuler, who had been attempting since the opening of the war to devise some means of employing welder's oxygen to augment the dwindling supply for the fighter pilots, finally managed, at great personal hazard, to transfer the gas from commercial cylinders to the fliers' oxygen bottles. Without this new supply the pilots could not have flown many more high altitude missions.

Another important experiment failed. Marine tried to fashion a workable aircraft sound locator out of lumber. It was "a crude pyramidal box with four uncurved plywood sides," by Major Devereux's description. It was too crude to be of any value; it served only to magnify the roar of the surf.

That evening Lieutenants Kinney and Kliewer and Technical Sergeant Hamilton readied Wake's three planes for the final patrol of the day. Kliewer draw a plane that was always difficult to start,4 and his takeoff was delayed for nearly fifteen minutes. While he was climbing to overtake the other fliers he spotted an enemy submarine on the surface some 25 miles southwest of the atoll. He climbed to 10,000 feet and maneuvered to attack the sun behind him. He strafed the Japanese boat with his .50 caliber guns, and then dropped his two bombs as he pulled out of his glide. Neither bomb hit, but Kliewer estimated that they exploded within fifteen feet of the target. Bomb fragments punctured his wings and tail as he made his low pull-out, and while he climbed to cruising altitude he saw the enemy craft submerge in the midst of a large oil slick.5

After their various activities of 12 December, the atoll defenders ended the day with a solemn ceremony. A large grave had been dug approximately 100 yards southwest of the Marine aid station, and in this the dead received a common burial while a lay preacher from the contractor's crew read simple prayers.

Next day the Japanese did not bother Wake at all, and Marine officers thought it possible that Kliewer's attack on the enemy submarine had brought them this day of freedom. The tiny atoll, frequently concealed by clouds, was a difficult


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place to find, and the Marines reasoned that the Japanese were using submarine radios as navigational homing aids. Accurate celestial navigation would have been possible at night, but the bombers had been making daylight runs of from 500 to 600 miles over water with no landmarks. By dead reckoning alone this would have been most difficult, yet the bombers hit at about the same time each day. This convinced some of the Marines, including Lieutenant Kinney, that the submarine had been leading them in.6

But even this quiet day7 did not pass without loss. While taking off for the evening patrol, Captain Freuler's plane swerved toward a group of workmen and a large crane beside the runway. To avoid hitting the men or this crane, Freuler made a steep bank to the left. The plane lost lift and settled into the brush, a permanent wash-out. It was set up in the bone yard with other wrecks which were parked to draw bombs.

December 14 started explosively at 0330 when three four-engine Kawanishi 97 flying boats droned over from Wotje8 and dropped bombs near the airstrip. They caused no damage, and the garrison made no attempt to return fire. But later that day the pilots of the Twenty-Fourth Air Flotilla resumed their bombing schedule. Thirty shore-based bombers arrived from Roi at 1100, and struck Camp One, the lagoon off Peale, and the west end of the airstrip. Two marines from VMF-211 were killed and one wounded, and a direct bomb hit in an airplane revetment finished off another fighter plane, leaving the atoll's aviation unit only one plane that could fly.9 Lieutenant Kinney, VMF-211's engineering officer, sprinted for the revetment where he was joined by Technical Sergeant Hamilton and Aviation Machinist's Mate First Class James F. Hesson, USN,10 his two assistants. Despite the fire which engulfed the rear end of the plane, these men accomplished the unbelievable feat of removing the undamaged engine from the fuselage and dragging it clear.

During his morning patrol flight of 15 December, Major Putnam sighted another submarine southwest of Wake. But it appeared to have orange markings, and Putnam did not attack. He thought it might be a Netherlands boat because he had observed markings of that color on Dutch airplanes in Hawaii in late 1941. Putnam's examination of the craft caused it to submerge, however, and Marines later took significant notice of this when the regular bombing raid did not arrive that day. This seemed to add credence to the theory that submarines were providing navigational "beams" for the bombers.

But the Kawanishi flying boats kept the day from being completely free of Japanese harassment. Four to six of these four-motored planes came over at about 1800, and one civilian was killed when the planes made a strafing run along the atoll.


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Their bombing was less effective. They apparently tried to hit Battery D on Peale Island, but most of the bombs fell harmlessly into the lagoon and the others caused no damage.
Meanwhile defensive work continued during every daylight hour not interrupted by such bombing raids. Another aircraft was patched up, personnel shelters for all hands had been completed in the VMF-211 area, and at Peacock point Battery A now had two deep underground shelters with rock cover three feet thick.11 And before nightfall on 15 December the garrison completed its destruction of classified documents. This security work began on 8 December when the Commandant of the 14th Naval district ordered Commander Cunningham to destroy reserve codes and ciphers at the Naval Air Station,12 but codes remained intact in the VMF-211 area. Now Major Bayler and Captain Tharin shredded these classified papers into an oil drum and burned them in a gasoline fire.13

On the 16th the Japanese made another daylight raid. Twenty-three bombers from Roi came out of the east at 18,000 feet in an attempt to bomb Peale Island and Camp Two. Lieutenants Kinney and Kliewer, up on air patrol, warned the garrison of this approach, but the Marine fliers had no luck attacking the enemy planes. They did radio altitude information for the antiaircraft gunners, however, and the 3-inch batteries knocked down one bomber and damaged four others. The Japanese spilled their bombs into the waters of the lagoon and turned for home.

But experience had taught the atoll defenders not to expect a rest after this daylight raid was over. The flying boats had become almost as persistent as the shore-based bombers, and at 1745 that afternoon one of the Kawanishis came down through a low ceiling to strafe Battery D on Peale Island. Poor visibility prevented the Marines from returning fire, but the attack caused little damage. The plane dropped four heavy bombs, but these fell harmlessly into the lagoon. Marines who were keeping score--and most of them were--marked this down as Wake's 10th air raid.

After this attack Wake had an uneasy night. It was black with a heavy drizzle, and maybe this put sentinels on edge just enough to cause them to "see things"--although no one could blame them for this. At any rate lookouts on Wilkes passed an alarm at 0200 that they had sighted 12 ships, and everybody fell out for general quarters. Nothing came of this alarm and postwar Japanese and U.S. records indicate that there were no ships at all around Wake that night.

At 0600 on 17 December Lieutenant Kinney reported proudly that his engineering crew had patched up two more airplanes. This still left the atoll with a four-plane air force, but fliers and other aviation personnel could hardly have been more amazed if two new fighter squadrons had just arrived. Major Putnam called the work of Kinney, Hamilton, and Hesson "magical."14


…With almost no tools and a complete lack of normal equipment, they performed all types of repair and replacement work. They changed engines and propellers from one airplane to another, and even completely built up new

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engines and propellers from scrap parts salvaged from wrecks…all this in spite of the fact that they were working with new types [of aircraft] with which they had no previous experience and were without instruction manuals of any kind…Their performance was the outstanding event of the whole campaign.15
"Engines have to be traded from plane to plane, have been junked, stripped, rebuilt, and all but created," another report said of Kinney's engineering work.16

At 1317 that afternoon 27 Japanese bombers from Roi came out of the southwest at 19,000 feet. Their bombs ignited a diesel oil tank of Wilkes and destroyed the defense battalion messhall as well as much tentage and quartermaster gear at Camp One. A bomb explosion also damaged one of the evaporator units upon which Wake depended for its water supply. The 3-inch guns brought down one of these planes.

[Swenslim]

[:D]

My fighters can only damage b-24 at day time and occasionally shot 1-2 down. A t night I only loose 2-3 fighters in air and raid still bombs airfield (lets think on a minute, bomb a comuflaged place without lights, 2-3 square miles) and destroyes planes on a ground.

[PresterJohn001]

I think Swenslim that allied bomber effectiveness is too great overall, much like artillery was initially. This exacerbates night bombing being a little too effective.