First impressions please

[Lützow]

Don't be shy. Would like to know how BftB compares to CotA.

[MajFrankBurns]

edited

[Erik Rutins]

MajFrankBurns,

Please keep pricing comments in the pricing thread, it's not appreciated that you hijack this thread for similar commentary. First impressions do not typically show up within a couple of hours of release of a wargame that's nearly a gig in size for the download.

Regards,

- Erik

[Adam Parker]

Congratulations Panther and Matrix on this very surprisedly announced release! Thought we were still months away [:)]

I have no doubt that he game will be rock solid out of the digital wrapper. This will be a game for a later purchase from me though given some previous game commitments I've made in the board gaming world but yes, like the OP I'm looking forward to hearing some reviews and impressions.

The learning curve is particularly of interest. What is considered "need to know" and "optional chrome" to play the game etc.

[MarkShot]

For me, I think it is the old 80/20 rule. 20% of the functionality can be used 80% of the time.

If not for exit objectives and bridges, you could mainly get away with ATTACK and DEFEND orders. As a new player, I would recommend starting like that along with MOVE to get a feel for the game. Then, as you get comfortable starting using additional orders and parameter adjustments.

I've always said that a good basic plan is worth more than a poor plan with a lot of finesse.

[James Sterrett]

When I use COTA in my simulations classes, I give a quick spiel entitled "How to Lose", to get those students who did not do their homework (namely, learn to play COTA) able to at least play. In fairness, good use of what's below can get you to win as well.

(I very-safely assume my students known NATO symbology.)

Hit F4. The number in the upper right corner of the icons is the unit's combat power. This is not linear: 2 is twice 1, 3 is twice 2 and thus 4 times 1, etc.

Hit 1: Show All Units.

(Both of these are shown at the bottom of the screen as well. Point that out.)

Set the next button along to "Cur", showing current intel only.

Set the next button to CMD (show command relationships.)

Set the next button to Bmd (bombardment ranges shown, only).

Ensure all the next buttons along are "pushed down" (BFTB: ignore the button that looks like a head).

You will use three of the commands: Attack, Defend, and Bombard.

Looking at your units, some of them have small flags. These are HQS. Give all orders to HQs.

To see only HQs, hit 2. To see all units, hit 1.

Now hit 2.

Click on an HQ unit.

To give it an attack order, press A, then click on the objective.

To give it a defend order, press D, then click on the objective.

To cancel an order, hit backspace. You may need to click on the objective designation again to do this.

Click on the CMD tab (on the left) and look at the Force Delay line. This is how long it will take new orders to take effect. (I always run at Painfully Realistic command delay. I sometimes go into a more complete spiel on the impact of this.)

Hit 1.

Find an artillery unit.

Click on it to select it.

Press B, then click on a target inside the Blue ring but outside the black ring.

Ta-da... you know enough to lose (to somebody across the room from you.)




Honestly, when I am playing, I mostly use these three commands. [:)]

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: James Sterrett

Hit F4. The number in the upper right corner of the icons is the unit's combat power. This is not linear: 2 is twice 1, 3 is twice 2 and thus 4 times 1, etc.

When I last played COTA in 2006, I found this very annoying and retired the game.

-

[henri51]

I downloaded the game and installed. It takes about an extra 5 minutes to install Windows components (most of which were probably installed). There are 6 tutorial movies which I like a lot more than following the tutorial from the manual. The tutorials go though the St Vith attack by USA mechanized forces, which lasts 4 days, so it is quite extensive.

I like the extra features, especially the ability to click on any unit in the ES tab and see a detailed description of its capabilities, as well as for any weapon. So if you want to know how far a 50 cal. MG can shoot and the effectiveness for various ranges, and how much ammo it uses up for various fire rates, all that is available. This is the biggest plus for normal humans like me who know that a 75 mm Panther cannon has a gun that shoots harder than that of a PZ IV, but would be hard put to guess how much armor it can penetrate at a 1 km range - and forget about a Crusader tank (at least in my case)...

The tutorial says that the top HQ can automatically attach its support units to its subunits (say battalions) carrying out an attack (I hope I didn't misunderstand this). Sounds good, and I can't wait to see how this works out. I hope it means that say a MG support unit can be automatically attached to a battalion carrying out an assault despite the top HQ sitting in the rear under a defend order. In the previous game, one had to attach the support unit to the HQs carrying out the assault. Of course the player will still need to detach a few subunits to carry out specific asks, for example setting up a MG unit and a tank unit a hill overlooking probable enemy reinforcing routes as in the tutorial.

OK that's it for now - and oh yes, the game IS a bit expensive but what the heck, I have to do something to keep me busy for a few days because my WoW account was hacked yesterday and I was banned until Saturday for violating the rules because the hackers tried to sell my stuff.[:(]

Henri

[James Sterrett]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: James Sterrett

Hit F4. The number in the upper right corner of the icons is the unit's combat power. This is not linear: 2 is twice 1, 3 is twice 2 and thus 4 times 1, etc.

When I last played COTA in 2006, I found this very annoying and retired the game.

Some like it, some don't -- but it is the easiest of those F-key settings to explain fast. [:)]

[Laramie]

Once again, Dr. Sterrett issues a concise, clear, and informative "box" of information. But...I take it you like it? Can offer observations as well as any compare/contrast with COTA?

[scsfan]

half way down the Tutorial, main impression is that new OOB display options are very good and helpful.
problem with 2560x1600 resolution (edge of the map gets displaced) which I've posted in the Tech Support part. but runs in 1920x1200 fine.

[SolInvictus202]

Hey guys

totally new on the forum, took this occasion to finally join here too...posted the same on wargamer...after my money problem was solved all I can say is: IT'S GREAT - even much better than COTA (which on its own was great!)....I simply love it!

part of my post on wargamer:

small summary of that engagement: no full AAR only a few lines:

I wanted to clear my flank for the main attack of two regiments, and attacked a village out of the woods, where I let my units rest over the night, with a coordinated effort of 3 infantry bataillons, with a preceeding artillery barrage of corps artillery for 30 minutes on the known enemy positions....one of the 3 bataillons was delayed for 14 minutes - which was very realistic, as it had to organize itself first, which I failed to observe, but it arrived in time...

when the enemy was fleeing I sent in a tank-bataillon equipped with Shermans to pursue - which were instantly counterattacked by an SS-Panzerbataillon with Tiger II - of course shot to pieces - I was able to halt this local counterattack at the village, bringing up more AT Coys....
the village didn't have any victory objectives in it - yet still the AI counterattacked with success, even used its available airstrikes with great success, and the artillery it had, which wasn't much....VERY NICE!!!

it's worth every cent/penny....

SolInvictus (typed the name wrongly in my profile here on this forum ... and now I'm stuck with "invuctus" [;)])

[PirateJock]

Have to say that the tutorial movies are good and worth working through - lots of info in there I wasn't aware of and a lot easier to follow than hard copy.  Playing tutorials on netbook while running game on laptop.

[Renato]

I've watched the excellent tutorial movies and played only two days of the tutorial scenario, and my very first impressions are good.

The game has a lot of new features which require an adjustement of the game style (in particular the attack and the rest feature added to Move and Defend orders).
The flavour of the game is changed. I noted the routed units require a very long time to recover. I found some difficulty in coordinating attacks, but frankly I've not yet read the manual.

I need much more play to give an evaluation.

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: henri51

I downloaded the game and installed. It takes about an extra 5 minutes to install Windows components (most of which were probably installed).

Hi henri51.

Like yourself, I feel the game is a bit pricey but will purchase it anyway -- probably next week. I am very curious however about your comment concerning the additional installation of Windows components. What components and why?? Do you mean updated drivers or ??
Thanks.

Rob.

[Panther Paul]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader

ORIGINAL: henri51

I downloaded the game and installed. It takes about an extra 5 minutes to install Windows components (most of which were probably installed).

Hi henri51.

Like yourself, I feel the game is a bit pricey but will purchase it anyway -- probably next week. I am very curious however about your comment concerning the additional installation of Windows components. What components and why?? Do you mean updated drivers or ??
Thanks.

Rob.

Hi,

It makes sure you have the required version of DirectX, .NetFrameWork (The Estab Editor is a .Net application), and the C++ runtimes.

If you are already up to date it will install nothing.

[James Sterrett]

ORIGINAL: Laramie
Once again, Dr. Sterrett issues a concise, clear, and informative "box" of information. But...I take it you like it? Can offer observations as well as any compare/contrast with COTA?

Disclosure: I'm a BFTB beta tester, as part of my day job.

I'm a big fan of Panther's games, both personally and professionally.

tl/dr version: These not only offer the best AI I know of; they also offer the best simulation of being the commander that's available in a single-player computer game. That may or may not mean it's a fun game for a particular person.

The AI is outstanding and even better than COTA's. Dave and Paul spent a lot of effort on some things that are hard to see in the AI, generally getting forces to behave more correctly. Overall, though, it's amazing: you can assign an arbitrary group of forces to achieve an arbitrary terrain-based objective and they will make a competent go of it. Keep in mind that the AI facing against you is not given preset battle plans, but has to decide what to do based on available forces, terrain, mission, and known opposing units.

Simulation of Command:

Commanders and their staffs come up with a plan, issue orders to subordinate units, and then monitor unfolding events as those subordinates execute their missions. As events unfold, there are three key questions: 1) Are friendly forces doing what the plan requires? 2) Are enemy forces doing what the plan predicts? 3) Will this plan still achieve the intended outcome? If the answer to any of these questions is "no", then they have a problem and need to figure out how to fix it, and then issue orders to solve the situation. Ideally, they recognize that the answer will be no in the future, and fix the issue now. There's a lot of staring at the map or reports and trying to decide if something needs to be done -- but the subordinate units are getting on with their assigned tasks all the while.

In the game, the player comes up with a plan, issues the order, and then has to monitor unfolding events, asking those same three questions and trying to come up with new orders as fixes.

Better still, when you enable command delay (ideally as high as it will go!), you get a game that makes you experience Boyd's OODA loop directly. Players who can stay ahead of events, anticipating instead of reacting, come to dominate the battlefield; their forces seem to turn up where and when they are needed to tip the tide of battle in their favor. Those who react to events find themselves struggling, forces not quite in the right place, pre-empted by enemy actions, and so on.


If you're interested in a taste of BFTB as a military staff trainer, come to Origins Game Convention on 24 June.... I and several others will be running a series of seminars using off-the-shelf games to conduct staff training exercises (much more fun than it sounds, I promise! [:)] ), using BFTB, and the also-excellent Flashpoint Germany and Decisive Action (each in its own seminar.)

[henri51]

The tutorial goes only 2 days and the St Vith scenario is five days, so I decided to play the whole thing to see what happens - it was a riot! My back is sore from the stress.

A lot of reinforcements come in after the tutorial, and I disposed my forces to cover the important junctions along the very long road (about 50 km I think), including the objectives, bridges and areas where I had seen lurking enemy units.When no enemy units are visible where I want to go, I almost invariably give defend orders where I want them to go - ya ya I know, I should probably send in a small group or a single unit with probe orders, but sometimes the AI will do that itself anyway. Except when I am moving Division or Brigade HQs, I almost always give orders to battalion HQs, except for special cases and one or two artillery units that I control myself.

So I kept moving North, sending the fresh armored battalions leapfrogging the tired initial units up to and including the final objective St Vith. I almost pissed in my pants when the 10th Armored Battalion entered St Vith and met what seemed like a whole SS Division that suddenly appeared out of nowhere sitting on the objective!

I kept some battalions or division and brigade HQs (when the location did not seem threatened and was not an objective) defending objectives and important road crossings and bridges (to protect my supply lines) and ordered the rest of the battalions to hike up there (some already were on the way with defend or move orders).

A huge battle ensued, and I was in doubt on whether I could take or hold the St Vith objective, since my battalions were arriving rather piecemeal (so much for planning...[8D]). One armored Battalion was defending a bridge halfway up the map that was not an objective, and no enemy units were in sight, so I ordered them to probe toward the main highway that cuts across the map SW to NE. To my great satisfaction, they emerged in the rear of the enemy just before nightfall, and they did a lot of damage in addition to keeping a significant part of the enemy force away from the St Vith objective. Actually I expected them to meet up with some enemies and to keep them away from my flank, so I was not such a great genius...[:'(]

One thing that worried me was that a number of times, I had messages that said that 100% of my supply transports between certain units had been lost, but I could see no enemy units within 1 km of my supply line, so I am puzzled as to what was blocking my supplies. Aircraft maybe? One time I had a single fast unit run along the road to see if he could find any hidden enemies, but he did not.

During the battle I was furiously firing with the lone heavy artillery unit (the 66th) under my direct control, which may have helped turn the tide. I took and lost the objective a couple of times, but on the morning of day 5 when the scenario ended, I had a decisive victory.Since I half expected to have by pipe cleaned I was happy, but OTOH I don't know how balanced this scenario is - maybe anything less than a decisive victory is grounds for a court-martial.[8|]

I find that when things get hot, I tend to throw planning out the window and to furiously throw everything available at the problem, which I bet could be fatal against a good human player. [8|]

Anyway it was a lot more fun than complaining about the price...[:D]


Henri

[Chad Harrison]

As a side note, I went ahead and started an AAR for the above mentioned tutorial scenario. It is in the AAR section of these forums if anyone is interested.

[Laramie]

Thank you Dr. Sterrett.