Price?

[Erik Rutins]

tgb,

As I've said before, each game has its own business model and its own development costs. It's not apples to apples even within our catalog and once you go outside this niche market making comparisons is almost impossible.

Regards,

- Erik

[ElchDivision]

[/quote]
Panther Games the best? I don't think so, best at what? Sales? No. The problem I see is this. They claim to have the best AI, but have no demo for this game. They make a game that has been done to death, how many times can you fight the battle of the Bulge? You have to sell better than that. I've worked in retail my whole life it's a give and take business. $80 is to much for this game, for what you get out of it. If it was all about the Western front, then maybe, but for one battle at the end of the war in which the Germans had no chance at all to win seems a bit much. Also I see this game is already having issues with CTD's.
[/quote]

Even if I have not posted here before I have been playing wargames boad and PC based for around 25 years. I can honestly state that COTA was one of the best wargames I have ever played. As I have played COTA I can assume that BOTB wont be worse. So I do not need a demo. Its probably even better, so why do people moan so much? I can understand that "not having the money" is a problem. So some people wont be able to buy and I feel sorry for them.
As to the other people, why continue moaning? You have the choice - buy it or leave it. This thread is exploding with statements like this.
If you want the game buy it, if you cant buy it because of your financial situation save up for it (thats what I do when I am broke). If you dont like the setting, buy another game. Its quite simple realy.
But all this moaning about a perfectly good product just because you are pissed off about the price [:-].....


Just my opinion.

Best regards,

Rob

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

Panther Games the best? I don't think so, best at what? Sales? No. The problem I see is this. They claim to have the best AI, but have no demo for this game. They make a game that has been done to death, how many times can you fight the battle of the Bulge? You have to sell better than that. I've worked in retail my whole life it's a give and take business. $80 is to much for this game, for what you get out of it. If it was all about the Western front, then maybe, but for one battle at the end of the war in which the Germans had no chance at all to win seems a bit much. Also I see this game is already having issues with CTD's.

AI:
You don't sound like someone who owns any installment of the series. The AI is truly amazing, and it's beyond me why military instructors have not picked up this engine yet, as it's really worth to be considered by West Point and the like, it's that good. Like Dave said, they must be really conservative when it comes to new tools and techniques for military education (on an operational level, even though sims are being used on a tactical level for years now).

DEMO:
A demo is on the works. Actually, it makes sense to base the demo on the final retail version, and not on a beta candidate, which may lead some ppl to wrong conclusions regarding stability or say functionality. Some major companies release demos prior to or with the release version, but we're talking about big companies who can afford this kind of time/finance management. With such companies, sometimes even additional programmers take care of working on a stripped Demo version, or the devs update the multiplayer demos via their update servers. Panther does not have that infrastructure.

REPLAYABILITY:
In case the inclusion of the editor isn't just a myth, there's a chance that you see plenty of scenarios (well, depending on sales figures I guess), so it won't be like the Bulge scenarios would have to be played over and over.
But even if that would be the case, the impressive AI still garantuees a high replay value, even when loading savegames, as the AI will reassess the situation continuously, means results/outcomes may vary each time you decide to load up a savegame. The enemy AI is anything than predictable.

I've created a scenario for HTTR and while playtesting the scenario my own scenario, I encountered totally different outcomes quite a few times, even THOUGH I knew the objectives of both sides. This engine tops anything regarding replayability and quality of the AI.

I advise to do some research or play one installment of the series first, before you emit such kinda rant.

Cheers

[vj531]

ElchDivision and GoodGuy

two good replies to a very stupid poster

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: ElchDivision

Panther Games the best? I don't think so, best at what? Sales? No. The problem I see is this. They claim to have the best AI, but have no demo for this game. They make a game that has been done to death, how many times can you fight the battle of the Bulge? You have to sell better than that. I've worked in retail my whole life it's a give and take business. $80 is to much for this game, for what you get out of it. If it was all about the Western front, then maybe, but for one battle at the end of the war in which the Germans had no chance at all to win seems a bit much. Also I see this game is already having issues with CTD's.
[/quote]

Even if I have not posted here before I have been playing wargames boad and PC based for around 25 years. I can honestly state that COTA was one of the best wargames I have ever played. As I have played COTA I can assume that BOTB wont be worse. So I do not need a demo. Its probably even better, so why do people moan so much? I can understand that "not having the money" is a problem. So some people wont be able to buy and I feel sorry for them.
As to the other people, why continue moaning? You have the choice - buy it or leave it. This thread is exploding with statements like this.
If you want the game buy it, if you cant buy it because of your financial situation save up for it (thats what I do when I am broke). If you dont like the setting, buy another game. Its quite simple realy.
But all this moaning about a perfectly good product just because you are pissed off about the price [:-].....


Just my opinion.

Best regards,

Rob

[/quote]
I would like to try before I buy, thats why, it's not rocket science....I don't know you...you could just be saying that, just to be saying something. However to claim to be the best and not put out a demo...well thats my point. Buy it or leave it, if this is the company's mission statement they won't be around for long.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: sharper

ElchDivision and GoodGuy

two good replies to a very stupid poster

wow this is getting personal aye?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: sharper
two good replies to a very stupid poster

No personal attacks please, it's against the forum rules and will not end well if continued.

Please keep it civil everyone. I'd also like to ask those who have already expressed their opinion in full to please not repeat it, every post here is being read.

Regards,

- Erik

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

Panther Games the best? I don't think so, best at what? Sales? No. The problem I see is this. They claim to have the best AI, but have no demo for this game. They make a game that has been done to death, how many times can you fight the battle of the Bulge? You have to sell better than that. I've worked in retail my whole life it's a give and take business. $80 is to much for this game, for what you get out of it. If it was all about the Western front, then maybe, but for one battle at the end of the war in which the Germans had no chance at all to win seems a bit much. Also I see this game is already having issues with CTD's.

AI:
You don't sound like someone who owns any installment of the series. The AI is truly amazing, and it's beyond me why military instructors have not picked up this engine yet, as it's really worth to be considered by West Point and the like, it's that good. Like Dave said, they must be really conservative when it comes to new tools and techniques for military education (on an operational level, even though sims are being used on a tactical level for years now).

DEMO:
A demo is on the works. Actually, it makes sense to base the demo on the final retail version, and not on a beta candidate, which may lead some ppl to wrong conclusions regarding stability or say functionality. Some major companies release demos prior to or with the release version, but we're talking about big companies who can afford this kind of time/finance management. With such companies, sometimes even additional programmers take care of working on a stripped Demo version, or the devs update the multiplayer demos via their update servers. Panther does not have that infrastructure.

REPLAYABILITY:
In case the inclusion of the editor isn't just a myth, there's a chance that you see plenty of scenarios (well, depending on sales figures I guess), so it won't be like the Bulge scenarios would have to be played over and over.
But even if that would be the case, the impressive AI still garantuees a high replay value, even when loading savegames, as the AI will reassess the situation contuously, means results/outcomes may vary each time you decide to load up a savegame. The enemy AI is anything than predictable.

I've created a scenario for HTTR and while playtesting the scenario my own scenario, I encountered totally different outcomes quite a few times, even THOUGH I knew the objectives of both sides. This engine tops anything regarding replayability and quality of the AI.

I advise to do some research or play one installment of the series first, before you emit such kinda rant.

Cheers

I don't think I was ranting, but you are. You can only do scenarios on the western front (so far) and for that time period. You have missed my point. I want a demo, I don't think I can say it in english any better, I admit my engllish is not so well.

[ElchDivision]

Axis,

try COTA, you wont be dissappointed.
As to the rest i just cant stand this "if they had modeled the whole of the western Front I would have bought it" opinion.

"Wenn der Hund nicht geschissen hätte"....

It stil sums up to "buy it, buy it later or leave it".

Regards from the Reich

Rob

[Titus]

Well, I just spent my euros to buy this. Rare things cost and quality things cost. Rare AND quality things cost even more. For the most of the people this additional cost of few euros/dollars after waiting years for release is negligible, so I presume it must be more about the principle.

But I am more than happy to support the cause, because I really want to see more games like this. I am so spoiled with the command and control of this system, so that I can't play other wargames. Best of luck and thank you very much for Panthergames and I really,really hope that this gets enough revenue for you to continue your excellent work.

Btw, Bulge also works fine with my Macbook Pro (Snow Leopard,Parallels 5), just started the tutorial!

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I would like to try before I buy, thats why, it's not rocket science....I don't know you...

Understandable. Still, I don't think it's necessary to drop in wild assumptions (about the quality of the AI or the replayability of any of the installments) that are totally unfounded. You can discuss or complain about the price, you can complain about the fact that there is no demo available on release date (again, it's been said that there will a demo soon), but you should either buy the game or read some reviews about the previous installments (I recommend one or another review authored by Tim Stone btw [:)], very enlightening) before you insinuate the game carries major deficiencies (you can't even reproduce the CTD reported in the tech forum, since you don't have the game).

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I would like to try before I buy, thats why, it's not rocket science....I don't know you...

Understandable. Still, I don't think it's necessary to drop in wild assumptions (about the quality of the AI or the replayability of any of the installments) that are totally unfounded. You can discuss or complain about the price, you can complain about the fact that there is no demo available on release date (again, it's been said that there will a demo soon), but you should either buy the game or read some reviews about the previous installments (I recommend one or another review authored by Tim Stone btw [:)], very enlightening) before you insinuate the game carries major deficiencies (you can't even reproduce the CTD reported in the tech forum, since you don't have the game).

I would like to read a review about this game, but can't find one. I never said this game carries major deficiencies, I said they claim to have the best AI.....It's true I can't reproduce CTD's but I sure can read about them!!! Anyway I will wait for the demo, If I like it I will buy it. For the price they arre asking, I would have thought they would release a demo with it, just makes sense to me that's all.

[Seydlitz69]

Wheres the problem with the Editor? Within this timeframe there could be
scenarios like the Battle for Huertgen Forest or battles for Aachen, Operation Nordwind etc.. I think the Editor will greatly enhance the replayability.

[ElchDivision]

Not to forget the battles in the Harz Mountains in 1945. Would be nice if I could play around with Sturmbatallion AOK 11 in which my grandfather served. ooooooooh the possibilities !!!!

[beatoangelico]

I would also note again that this is not our new overall pricing strategy as a publisher, this is just the pricing for this particular game.

I certainly hope so. Sadly this one was the game I was looking forward.

As to the other people, why continue moaning? You have the choice - buy it or leave it. This thread is exploding with statements like this.
If you want the game buy it, if you cant buy it because of your financial situation save up for it (thats what I do when I am broke). If you dont like the setting, buy another game. Its quite simple realy.
But all this moaning about a perfectly good product just because you are pissed off about the price .....

just to answer to all the similar posts...my cash reserves are limited, and my free time is not infinite. I have all the rights to complain about the price since it's the only thing can really keeps me from buying. Just like the publisher has all the rights to say "it is the way it is".
If someone doesn't understand what's the problem it's good for them, since they probably have more money than me. But I don't see the need of posts like this one.

[ElchDivision]

ORIGINAL: beatoangelico

I would also note again that this is not our new overall pricing strategy as a publisher, this is just the pricing for this particular game.

I certainly hope so. Sadly this one was the game I was looking forward.

As to the other people, why continue moaning? You have the choice - buy it or leave it. This thread is exploding with statements like this.
If you want the game buy it, if you cant buy it because of your financial situation save up for it (thats what I do when I am broke). If you dont like the setting, buy another game. Its quite simple realy.
But all this moaning about a perfectly good product just because you are pissed off about the price .....

just to answer to all the similar posts...my cash reserves are limited, and my free time is not infinite. I have all the rights to complain about the price since it's the only thing can really keeps me from buying. Just like the publisher has all the rights to say "it is the way it is".
If someone doesn't understand what's the problem it's good for them, since they probably have more money than me. But I don't see the need of posts like this one.

Thats what I meant. You dont have the money, I am very sorry for that and I dont want to be rude. But complaining does not help anybody. If its 20 Euros above your "limit" , save up for it. Smoke 3 boxes of fags less, buy cheap cornflakes instead of Keloggs for a month - its easy. We are not talking about software priced 1000s of Euros.
If someone does not have the money its one thing, but saving up rather than complaining makes it a lot easier.

[Seydlitz69]

Couldnt agree more Elch.

[Sti]

Hmm... this is a tough one. I've often thought that I would gladly pay a lot more money for selected games. For games that I know are awesome and that I would play a lot.

But! This game doesn't fall into this category. I'm sure it's a great game and I would have bought it on impulse just because it sounds good, even if it turned out that in the end I didn't like it that much. (I own the previous games of the series). But not for this price.

The question now is: How many people are like me and how many people are "hardcore" enough to buy it anyway? I don't know. If you, Matrix, know the answer to that and did the pricing according to that info, then fine. Otherwise you might become quite unhappy with the number of sales.

Myself, I feel a bit disappointed. Which might be irrational, considering you possibly saved me from buying something I wouldn't actually use that much, but still... I really would have liked to try the game.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: ElchDivision

Not to forget the battles in the Harz Mountains in 1945. Would be nice if I could play around with Sturmbatallion AOK 11 in which my grandfather served. ooooooooh the possibilities !!!!

Hmmm...My grandfather was in the 32nd Infantry Division, 94th Infantry regiment , Company D. 17 in 1939 and 27 when the Russians let him go. Off subject I know, but what division was he in?

[Grell]

I was looking forward to this game but that price dove me off, I'll never pay that much.[:(]

Regards,

Grell