New Panther Customer

[zentuit]

Hello all, I just wanted to say I watched the video of the game mechanics and was so intrigued. I went ahead and bought the game and I am impressed; this is the type of game I've been looking for. Now I feel bad that I've missed the previous titles!

Some things I noticed as a new player (you old guard feel free to snicker):
1) you have to maintain a presence at an objective. That gave me a two moments of confusion.

The first was after I took Lommersweiler and sent my tanks north I got a message that I lost the objective. Zooming in I saw my tanks had just left and a couple companies of infantry were counterattacking the town (oops). That made me think there was a "zone of control".

The second was when I blew through the crossroads and again got the message that I lost the objective. Sent a force back and yet there were no Germans in sight.

Aaahhh.. I have to leave a detachment; you know, like real life (doh!) (A quick look in the manual confirmed)

2) Coordinating attacks take practice. That's all I'm going to say about that [:)]

3) Video tutorials are a brilliant idea!

4) This is a very different type of system. I found myself dropping down to micromanaging too many times. I have to learn to trust the subordinates to do their jobs and give direct orders only when it makes sense. It seems giving direct orders for a recon makes sense; I haven't seen any orders to do a recon mission.

I'm looking forward to many hours with this game.

[Bamilus]

Good first post!

This is also my first Panther game and I'm very happy and pleased with it. Glad to see you are, too!

[DanOppenheim]

Yeah, trusting your officers to do what you want is key. They're generally good enough and it frees you to worry about the bigger picture. Don't forget that even if you do micromanage, your orders still have to filter down the chain of command, so there'll still be a hefty orders delay. Planning well ahead and planning your responses, which means you *must* have a tactical reserve, will mean you'll feel less like micromanaging, as it'll be easier to kick off your planned responses rather than having to pull someone out of a formation and give them special instructions.

[Titanwarrior89]

Ive had the games before and played them little but now I am getting into the system. Great game but I can see why people didn't buy.......I almost didn't.

[James Sterrett]

ORIGINAL: DanO
Don't forget that even if you do micromanage, your orders still have to filter down the chain of command...

And if you have command delay on, all those micromanaged units add to the command load of the highest on-map HQ.

If you start telling every single icon on the map what to do, individually (not claiming you are doing this!), you will be punished in two ways:

1) The highest HQ gets overloaded, and delay times soar

2) You're circumvented the AI, which means you have a lot of individual units going about their business without coordinating their efforts. If you give a battalion an order, and the right-flank company gets into trouble, the AI is going to try to do something about it. If you have a bunch of company icons individually going forward, you have to notice and do something about it.

Command Ops basically works to actively punish micromanagement. [:)]

[MarkShot]

Well, the micro-management penalties start kicking in if you have turned on Order Delays.

I actually think for new players learning the mechanics and UI, it is beneficial to turn Order Delays off while experimenting. It greatly simplifies the cause and effect observation as you try things. Also, it simplifies the getting up to speed on command structures, since CURRENT and PLAN are effectively the same. Finally, it is very forgiving of misunderstanding how to use the UI to issue high level orders, since any mistakes you make can be immediately corrected.

Myself, I found the system with RDOA quite intuitive. Where I really beat my head against the wall was that I was totally clueless about ground combat concepts ... boy, was I hopeless back in the day.

[Grim.Reaper]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Well, the micro-management penalties start kicking in if you have turned on Order Delays.

I actually think for new players learning the mechanics and UI, it is beneficial to turn Order Delays off while experimenting. It greatly simplifies the cause and effect observation as you try things. Also, it simplifies the getting up to speed on command structures, since CURRENT and PLAN are effectively the same. Finally, it is very forgiving of misunderstanding how to use the UI to issue high level orders, since any mistakes you make can be immediately corrected.

Myself, I found the system with RDOA quite intuitive. Where I really beat my head against the wall was that I was totally clueless about ground combat concepts ... boy, was I hopeless back in the day.

MarkShot,

I have a quick follow-up question. If you start micro-managing any of your units, is there a way to return control of the units back to the AI? Or are you out of luck?

Thanks.

[wodin]

Fantastic engine for this series. Its something I've been shouting about all over the net for a long time.

I'm over the moon many new people are trying it and enjoying it.

[MarkShot]

You can easily return them to AI control. Ways to do that are:

(1) Group them as part of some other force (meaning more than one unit selected) and issue a new order.

(2) Click on the reattach order or press "H".

The thing to be careful about is that reattaching units to a force can cause a replan. This can be a disaster when the force is in the middle of an attack or a withdrawal. This was certainly true of RDOA/HTTR/COTA. I am under impression that Dave added something into BFTB to diminish the affects when the force composition changes in a neglible way as opposed to immediately generating a replan. (I have to admit not reading every development post and not actually playing BFTB yet.)

[James Sterrett]

Grim Reaper -- Click "Reattach" to put a unit and assigned subunits back into their organic force structure:

[Grim.Reaper]

Thanks MarkShot!

[James Sterrett]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
I actually think for new players learning the mechanics and UI, it is beneficial to turn Order Delays off while experimenting. It greatly simplifies the cause and effect observation as you try things. Also, it simplifies the getting up to speed on command structures, since CURRENT and PLAN are effectively the same. Finally, it is very forgiving of misunderstanding how to use the UI to issue high level orders, since any mistakes you make can be immediately corrected.

Good point, Mark.

I force my students to use Painfully Realistic command delay, but that's because I want them to see how that causes OODA cycles to become a direct force in the game!

Edit: and I have to answer a lot of "why aren't they moving yet?" questions. [:)]

[MarkShot]

(3) I think they will reattach if you delete their current order.

Note: reattachments return to the organic force structure. Creating a new force by selectively selecting units is the only way to short circuit that. ("selectively selecting" Where is an English teacher when you need them? Oh, Paul Roberts?)

[MarkShot]

Just tested #3. That is wrong. They remain under your command, but awaiting orders. Ooops.

[wodin]

I've never played any of the previous games with less than realistic order delay. I'd say start with that and keep it like that personally. Play the game the way it was really supposed to be played.

One quick comment...I'm very pleased there are so many new people here who have bought the game and are enjoying it...but it does feel that some don't realise that there are members here who have supported Matrix for along time and own the previous Panther Games so do have a right to voice their compliants without a baclash from new members...it doesn'y really lay down a good basis for harmony in the future which since I've been here has always been a plus to the forum.

BTW I again have to say I'm very pleased new people have discovered this series...its something I wanted to happen pre release as mentioned in my previous posts further bac in the forum.

It can only bode well for the future of what is a groundbreaking wargame.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
I actually think for new players learning the mechanics and UI, it is beneficial to turn Order Delays off while experimenting. .... it simplifies the getting up to speed on command structures, since CURRENT and PLAN are effectively the same.

Not so, Mark. The three force structure types used are organic, player ( not Plan ) and current. The player structure is derived from your orders. Eg if you attach a tank coy to an Inf Bn, then the Bn structure will list three inf companies a mor pl and a tank coy all directly under the HQ. However, if in the course of events that Bn initiates an attack, then it will assign one of its companies to be the assault subject and attach the others to it. The Bn HQ ends up in the reserve group. So for the "current" force structure only the assault subject and any reserve units would be directly under the Bn HQ. The rest of the assault units would be nested under the assault subject.

[MarkShot]

Thanks, Dave.

Before this weekend is over, I am going to be able to connect the dots with little green, blue, and gray lines and score A+ on my exam. Too bad you didn't include a work book and some crayons with the doc set.

[MarkShot]

BTW, the game rollover says "Current Op Plan Structure" and the manual says "Op Plan Structure". Makes you want to ask who was proof reading this stuff! Hmm ...

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I've never played any of the previous games with less than realistic order delay. I'd say start with that and keep it like that personally. Play the game the way it was really supposed to be played.

One quick comment...I'm very pleased there are so many new people here who have bought the game and are enjoying it...but it does feel that some don't realise that there are members here who have supported Matrix for along time and own the previous Panther Games so do have a right to voice their compliants without a baclash from new members...it doesn'y really lay down a good basis for harmony in the future which since I've been here has always been a plus to the forum.

BTW I again have to say I'm very pleased new people have discovered this series...its something I wanted to happen pre release as mentioned in my previous posts further bac in the forum.

It can only bode well for the future of what is a groundbreaking wargame.

"New" members have a right to voice their concerns and just because their forum join date isn't 2003 doesn't mean they haven't lurked the forums or spent hundreds of dollars on Matrix Games over the years (like I have).

I agree that things should remain civil, however.

[Arjuna]

Mark,

The force structure button on the display toolbar only refreshes the rollover text if you move the mouse pointer away and then back over it again. I realise this is not optimum. We need to write a new button class for that particular button so it receives the right update messages. It's on the list of things to do.