FITE MOD 2010

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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Curtis Lemay
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama
ORIGINAL: morleron1
So far as removing the Axis MP units, with the thought that this will make it impossible for the Axis player to use them as spearhead units I'd suggest holding off on that until 3.4 comes out so that we can evaluate whether or not Ralph has solved the "ant unit problem".

The ant problem's solution has already been explained. It has only to do with the little trick of a very small unit attacking with a mass of artillery against a larger unit. That's about the extent of it.

Actually, a little more than that has been addressed. In addition to making ants far less useful in attacks, there is a new ability of retreating defenders to try to RBC any blocking enemy units (so ants are less useful in blocking retreats), and the RBC code has been revised to make it harder for very small units to not RBC.

There's nothing that specifically would prevent an MP unit from leading a spearhead, though (if you don't count the increased risk of being overrun). But there are things designers can do to try to somewhat restrict their use to the rear. (Foot movement, no recon elements, low prof, etc.).
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Panama

Too bad there's no way to delay reconstitution in a scenario to something more reasonable.

Replacement 9.1.8 When units are Reconstituted, there is a one to four week delay in their appearance.

Forming, getting the pieces together and training a division to fight as even a somewhat cohesive unit takes alot longer than one to four weeks unless an existing unit was given the destroyed unit's number.

But elimination in TOAW doesn't represent the complete annihilation of the unit - after all, only the forward combat elements are usually modeled. It only represents a temporary loss of "cohesion" - the ability to function as a effective unit. Units can recover that relatively quickly.

When I have a unit encircled and my combat report shows the defending unit as having lost everything, in other words, the on hand column and the lost column are the same, do you mean to tell me this is not fact? That in every case the encircled unit has survived and simply needs a large number of replacements? If that's true then accept my apologies for my misunderstanding.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »


ORIGINAL: morleron1
I think that to some extent we can do both. As was pointed out in the FiTE Opinions thread that Bibbo began a couple of years ago the big problem seems to be that the Soviet player has more-or-less perfect knowledge of what happened historically and what works in the game. This has resulted in the development of the Russian strategy of simply retreating immediately and establishing a two-deep defensive line that is just beyond where the Germans can realistically expect to be able to get reasonable supply levels. Since the mechanics of the TOAW game engine make it virtually impossible to create a breakthrough of such a line: the Soviet player may have to retreat but he should be able to avoid a German breakthrough on a scale large enough to be dangerous.

I would like to point out that this retreat tactic worked very well in the SPI boardgame, War in the East. The more things change the more they stay the same. The result was the same too. After 1941 there were no Axis offensives. [:D]

To be honest, how long do you think the Bolshevik government would have lasted if they had simply abandoned so much of Russia without a fight?
ORIGINAL: morleron1
It seems to me that at least a partial solution to this problem to remove as many of the original FiTE "house rules" which limited the options available to the Axis player as possible. As I've mentioned in our private correspondence I think that the single best feature of the Buzz mods is the removal of limitations on what can be done with the Finns - including limits on how many German units can be sent to that front. This change means that the Soviet player can no longer safely strip every unit from the Finnish front for use elsewhere as the Finns are now capable of doing damage to Soviets. While some may, rightly, decry this as being an ahistorical option this change goes a long way toward re-introducing the uncertainty which confronted the Soviet high command in WWII. This is a case of using an option which was not available in reality to produce a more realistic result in the game.

This was a political consideration for the Finns. The Finns had recently been liberated from Russian occupation, as it were. They had just gone through a war that they lost. I'd leave the Finns the way they are and deny the Soviets the ability to invade southern Finland until after 1943.
ORIGINAL: morleron1
It seems to me that allowing the Turks to join in the fun (as a Theater Option in the Buzz mods does) is another way of forcing the Soviet player to have to pay attention to other areas of the front and not be able to simply pile all of his units in front of the German drive on Moscow. Perhaps what we need to concentrate on is figuring out ways to eliminate the advantage of hindsight that the Soviet player has in the original FiTE. While it would definitely be non-historical allowing the German player an option to "declare peace" with the British and thus free up a lot of units and resources for use on the Eastern Front could be worked out. I would think that an Axis player taking advantage of such an option would need to achieve a higher level of victory or have some other sort of penalty attached. As Panama has mentioned in relation to the "ant problem" the difficulty is not so much how TOAW works as how players act - so we need to figure out how to change the way the Soviet player typically reacts to the German invasion

The Turks (as Ottoman vassals) had fought a war against Italy, another against The Balkan League, against the Entente (WWI), fought a civil war and fought a war against the Greeks. All in a 14 year span! I really don't think they could be confident in gaining enough popular support to go to war yet again and still maintain political power. Personally I wouldn't even bother with a Turk/Swede option.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

I forgot to mention something. Stripping the Finnish front of Soviet units. This front was considered by the Soviets as a quiet front. 'Divisions' had no more strength than a regiment in most cases. They knew the Finns weren't going to advance beyond where they already had. This would make stripping this area seem a historic move by the Soviet player in FitE.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama

When I have a unit encircled and my combat report shows the defending unit as having lost everything, in other words, the on hand column and the lost column are the same, do you mean to tell me this is not fact? That in every case the encircled unit has survived and simply needs a large number of replacements? If that's true then accept my apologies for my misunderstanding.

Game-wise there's no difference whether the unit was surrounded or not when eliminated. Elimination represents the unit being unable to continue to function as a cohesive combat unit. Total annihilation is not modeled. Units usually evaporate long before all equipment has been destroyed.

After all, only the frontline combat elements are usually modeled. A division may have 18,000 men in it, yet be modeled by about 400 squads or so. I sometimes try to account for this a bit by modeling some of those rear-area elements. But the game is not designed to handle it, so it can't address all the issues that total annihilation would encompass.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Panama

When I have a unit encircled and my combat report shows the defending unit as having lost everything, in other words, the on hand column and the lost column are the same, do you mean to tell me this is not fact? That in every case the encircled unit has survived and simply needs a large number of replacements? If that's true then accept my apologies for my misunderstanding.

Game-wise there's no difference whether the unit was surrounded or not when eliminated. Elimination represents the unit being unable to continue to function as a cohesive combat unit. Total annihilation is not modeled. Units usually evaporate long before all equipment has been destroyed.

After all, only the frontline combat elements are usually modeled. A division may have 18,000 men in it, yet be modeled by about 400 squads or so. I sometimes try to account for this a bit by modeling some of those rear-area elements. But the game is not designed to handle it, so it can't address all the issues that total annihilation would encompass.

Divisions can be reduced to battalion size and still function as a cohesive combat unit. But I guess the line has to be drawn someplace. I still feel four weeks is far too short of a time. But that's simply my opinion. Thanks for your side of it.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I'll add that a unit will reconstitute when there are replacements available. In some scenarios the replacement rate is low enough to delay reconstitution. And I think that replacements first go to on map units, and if there are any left over they go to units eligible for reconstitution.
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desert
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by desert »

Is the ability to choose which units reconstitute in the wish list?
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: desert
Is the ability to choose which units reconstitute in the wish list?
IIRC the scenario designer can choose which ones reconstitute and can also set the priority of each unit to receive reinforcements or replacements of equipment. And he/she can stipulate where the reconstituting units re-appear in the game. Cool stuff.
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desert
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by desert »

Sorry, I meant in-game.
"I would rather he had given me one more division"
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

Larry you are a genius. You've just given me a great idea.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Divisions can be reduced to battalion size and still function as a cohesive combat unit. But I guess the line has to be drawn someplace. I still feel four weeks is far too short of a time. But that's simply my opinion. Thanks for your side of it.

I was just describing how the game works. For reconstitution there really is no consideration taken for whether the unit evaporated in the front lines or was isolated in a pocket. The term itself sort of speaks to this: "reconstitute" instead of "rebuild". Reconstitute means the unit was routed into scattered pieces that later were gathered back together into an effective unit.

I thought I was clear before, but if not, note that I'm not happy with this either. Getting a division trapped behind enemy lines and annihilated should be much worse than just decimating the frontline combat elements of it. Yet the game just isn't designed to address that. In fact, few games are. As I said, I usually make an effort in my designs to try to address it as best I can (by modeling some of the rear area stuff). But it's never very satisfactory. It would be nice if it could be addressed by the game itself. But it's a can of worms.

It would mean that, of those 18,000 men in the division, the 14,000 in the rear would have to be modeled in the game to have some significant effect without making them function as frontline combat troops. The 4,000 combat troops would have to be dependent upon them - unlike now.

I remember how it was handled in SPI's War in the East. German divisions were two step. The full strength division had a strength of 6. It could be reduced to a cadre with a strength of 1. But, in production terms, the cadre cost 4 PP and lots of time to make, while restoring the cadre to full strength only cost 2 PP and little time. So, divisions could be quickly and cheaply rebuilt after being reduced. But, if the cadre was destroyed, then there was a heavy cost in time and material. Yet 83% of the unit's strength was achieved with only 33% of the cost - the remaining 17% was achieved with 67% of the cost. The cadre obviously didn't model the combat elements. It modeled C&C, logistical, and intel elements and such.

This is what's missing in TOAW. We just have the combat elements, and they function more or less independent of the invisible structural elements. For that reason, there's insufficent payoff for successfully pocketing the enemy. And that makes a difference in game play.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by morleron1225 »

I've just uploaded a new version of my FITE mods.  This version corrects some errors that had made their way into the event list.  The events deal with the Axis Theater option to allow an early Finnish start and the Soviet Theater Option to invade Iran.  Anyone who has begun playing with the earlier version of the scenario should be OK if you do not use either of the two options mentioned above.  If you want to use them you'll need to restart the game after downloading the file.  NOTE: this version "FITE Rons Mod v1.1.2" uses the same equipment file as the earlier version.  Simply rename the equipment file to match the scenario file name. 

The files can be found here: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d47f0a15d1c4feb0ab1eab3e9fa335caccd431c9e6d81d20.

As always, please let me know if you discover any problems with my mods.  I hope that there is nothing major, but as few have ever played to the far side of turn 150 (in the original, let alone any of the modded versions) there may be something lurking.

Have fun,
Ron

P.S. Found one more problem in event chain. Uploaded new versions of scenario and equipment files. New version is 1.1.3. Remind me to just hit myself with a hammer the next time I fiddle with the event editor. It would be quicker and probably less painful. [&:]
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by morleron1225 »

Hi folks,
    Well, as some of you may have discovered, the versions of "FiTE Rons Mod" that I've uploaded over the past several days will not run under version 3.2.  It seems that running 3.4 as a beta tester is a two-edged sword when it comes to scenario editing.  There are a lot of nice things that have changed, particularly about the game play, but scenario saves using 3.4 aren't loadable in 3.2.  Fogger discovered this a couple of days ago and notified me of the problem.  However, all is not lost as Ralph (may the God of Wargaming bless him and his progeny) provided a function to save scenarios in 3.2 format by simply pressing the F8 key.  So I've done that and have uploaded the TOAW 3.2 version of FITE Rons Mod v1.1.3.  The new filename is "FITE Rons Mod v1.1.3_3.2.sce" and is up on Larry's Mediafire site.  I have had no luck getting the equipment file to upload, but it's the same as previously.  I don't know if an equipment file saved under 3.4 will work under 3.2.  If it doesn't feel free to send me an email and I'll send you the 3.2 version of the equipment file.
    I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused anyone - it's part of learning about v3.4 (or so I'll tell myself). [8D]
    The files for both versions are at: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d47f0a15d1c4feb0ab1eab3e9fa335caccd431c9e6d81d20.

Happy gaming,
Ron
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

Thanks for all your efforts Ron dude.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: morleron1
I don't know if an equipment file saved under 3.4 will work under 3.2.  If it doesn't feel free to send me an email and I'll send you the 3.2 version of the equipment file.
I don't think they changed any between versions.
Ralph Trickey
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by morleron1225 »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
ORIGINAL: morleron1
I don't know if an equipment file saved under 3.4 will work under 3.2.  If it doesn't feel free to send me an email and I'll send you the 3.2 version of the equipment file.
I don't think they changed any between versions.

Thank you, sir. That should make things a little easier from now on. I think I'll do a little experimenting to confirm this.

We're having some fun now!! [8D]
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by ralphtricky »

You need to either remove the _ from the eqp file name, or add them to the actual scenario title inside TOAW. I ignore the actual file name when looking up the eqp file.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by morleron1225 »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

You need to either remove the _ from the eqp file name, or add them to the actual scenario title inside TOAW. I ignore the actual file name when looking up the eqp file.

Hi Ralph,
The equipment file is given the name with the underscores in the scenario. I've tested it by putting the 3.2 equipment file in a folder under "Graphics" and when I open the scenario I do not get a "Using wrong equipment file" error. Thanks for pointing this out, though, as it's the sort of thing that I'm apt to forget in the wee hours of the morning.

I can hardly wait until 3.4 is made official. It's going to be good...that's what a little guy in a bar told me anyway. [8D]
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by morleron1225 »

OK, in my continuing attempt to make FITE a better scenario I've now uploaded a new version to Larry's Mediafire file site.  It is version 1.1.5.  The previous 1.1.3 equipment file will work fine with this new version, all you need to do is to rename the file so that it matches the scenario file.  I will be uploading a version that will run under TOAW 3.2 a little later today.  The version that is now on Mediafire will run under 3.4 which I'm really looking forward to.  This latest version has a cleaned up event subsystem.  I went back to the events that were originally part of the Buzz mods package and went through the whole thing to make sure events were properly linked.  Ralph, may he and his issue be blessed unto the seventh generation, [&o] made some modifications to the TOAW Scenario Viewer that he and Andy Edmiston wrote so that it would work with 3.4 scenarios - which made it much easier to go through the events.  As always, comments are welcome.

Have fun,
Ron
P.S. The 3.2 version of the latest FITE scenario is now up on Mediafire. For some reason I cannot get the equipment files (for either version) to upload to the site. The old versions of the equipment file will work fine with the new scenarios. All that needs to be done is to rename the equipment file to match the scenario. If you need the equipment file please contact me via email and I'll be happy to send you the file(s). My email address is: morleron@yahoo.com.
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