1943 Bob vs. Don AAR

[ComradeP]

That might make a Sir Robinovich defence more likely too, as less manpower is needed to construct units and thus fewer cities need to be held after the factories are gone.

I do like the idea of Soviet units re-appearing in the first few months, but it's a system that could be exploited.

[SGHunt]

Comrade Pieter wrote '...it's a system that could be exploited.'    

What - in the sense of the Russian player callously sacrificing vast numbers of men and huge amounts of materiel with a recklessness bordering on madness, just to slow the Germans down for a few days, knowing they will be replaced with yet vaster numbers of canon fodder...?   

That's surely a long way from any kind of historical simulation? [;)]


PS do tell me if that's not what you meant!

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, this is interesting. If the Sov can somehow manage to keep his units out of the deadpile in 1941, or at any rate less so than historical, he will be in the nice position of having APs available for other uses.

Now I understand why they get fewer APs per turn than the Germans. Those "free" reinforcements in 1941 represent hundreds of APs no doubt.

Conversely, this puts a lot of pressure on the German to kill Soviets while the killing is good. If they go for a territorial knockout blow and come up short and allow lots of units to get away this is going to cause them problems down the line.

I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of charging administrative points to build units. It was put in to prevent the Russian player from going "crazy" and building scores of weak units to flood the map. The return of previously destroyed units does not cause a net increase in the number of Russian units in play.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Rommel could, realistically have fought on the Eastern Front after the end of the African campaign. He was even present to fight on the game map for a while as he was moving to take command of formations of Army Group E, but the overthrow of Mussolini cancelled that. Adding Rommel in mid 1943 and giving him a high AP cost wouldn't be all that ahistorical.

In WitP, it would be unrealistic for the Allies to fly or ship in commanders from Europe, but to the Germans moving a commanding officer from one front to the other was not too problematic. Maybe you could give them a higher AP cost, but I dislike the idea that the Germans will be limited in the deployment of their officers, especially as the Soviets have access to basically everyone that matters for their side.

The basic concept of WitE is to give the Axis player ONLY the capabilities his historical counterparts had. Therefore you shouldn't get Rommel and any other commander who never fought on the Eastern Front just as you don't get Panzer Lehr or any other division that never fought there. You are placed in the position of the men who actually fought the campaign and have to fight with the resources they had available not what theoretically could have been available. For those that find this approach unsatisfying the game will come with an editor which will allow players to explore almost endless possiblities in alternative realities.

The basic concept of WitE is to give the Axis player ONLY the capabilities his historical counterparts had. Therefore you shouldn't get Rommel and any other commander who never fought on the Eastern Front just as you don't get Panzer Lehr or any other division that never fought there. You are placed in the position of the men who actually fought the campaign and have to fight with the resources they had available not what theoretically could have been available. For those that find this approach unsatisfying the game will come with an editor which will allow players to explore almost endless possiblities in alternative realities.

Panzer Lehr may not have fought there but it was deployed to Hungary in March 44 as a reserve

[karonagames]

Quick Update:Good News/Bad News

The good news is that new version has been received, with changes to the OOB, and changes to the air combat - this is test code and may over compensate for the high losses that occurred in our first run through. We will keep fine tuning until it is right.

The bad news is that there is a bug that is proving very hard to squash. It occurs on turn 6, so I am waiting to hear from Joel whether it is one that can be fixed on the fly so we can get started, or whether it is "Locked in", and will therefore mean that we will need a fixed version before we start.

There is an 8 hour time difference between me and Joel.

[ComradeP]

What - in the sense of the Russian player callously sacrificing vast numbers of men and huge amounts of materiel with a recklessness bordering on madness, just to slow the Germans down for a few days, knowing they will be replaced with yet vaster numbers of canon fodder...?

That's surely a long way from any kind of historical simulation?


PS do tell me if that's not what you meant!

Stuart,

The way I think it could be exploited is through the aforementioned Sir Robinovich: knowing that you don't really need most of the cities West of Moscow and Rostov to win the war on the long term, you could pull back your units. Knowing that they will come back will allow you to create a pretty decent defense somewhere, as even when it's broken the units will come back albeit understrength. To me, the historical Soviet forward defense has about 0 advantages compared to falling back and preserving strength.

The return of previously destroyed units does not cause a net increase in the number of Russian units in play.

Not by itself, but the way you explain it is does cause a net increase combined with production.

Normal, no-return units:

You build 10 units.
You lose 20 units.
You have 10 units less than before.

Normal and returning units:

You build 10 units.
You lose 20 units.
You regain those 20 units.
You have 10 units more than before.

[karonagames]

I think the PBEM beta testing phase will show if the system as it stands needs adjusting. PBEM functionality only became available recently.

I offered to play the Russians in 1941 in a PBEM, but no one was available to take me on, hence I've ended up being Don's sacrificial lamb.

I doubt very much whether the soviet will ever have enough APs in 1941 to build more than a few emergency gap fillers.

It remains to be seen if a "Sir Robinovich" (I've never heard it called that before) strategy can work in WITE's model. I think you will struggle in the later war if you leave your industry behind in 1941. The Russian player has a difficult juggling act in using his railway capacity to get the industry out vs. moving reinforcements in to to stop the Germans getting to the industry first.

I should also mention that there is the option to disband and merge units, so while the number of units the soviet can have is highly variable, the amount of men and the equipment needed to fill these units to a worthwhile level of combat effectiveness is much less variable. As you will see in the forthcoming 1943 campaign, Don will be using Corps and Division sized units, in 1941 the soviets only have divisions and brigades to play with.

You could also build more units than your C&C infrastructure can handle (You need to spend APs to improve your C&C too), so you could have a lot of units that couldn't move very far with enough supplies to fight for any length of time.

I do not think WITE will play like other games, particularly the East Front scenarios in TOAW3 and most particularly, the Fire in the East (FITE) scenario, where the the "Sir Robinovich" strategy has been shown to be very effective to the point where players give up before the end of 1941.

[Zovs]

My first pbem game was against the German Master, Andy, that was back in Dec, there have been a lot of changes since then but I am 95% sure that he can not only come close to wining in 1941 with either defense but the best to use against him is the grinding hedgehog defense. It slowly wears down the Germans through attrition. If you fall back to Moscow too Quickly the Germans can be at your door before you know it and kick it in and it's all over before the first snow falls. However, if you (as the Soviets) husband (as much as possible, or to put it another way, make your losses count) then if you can slowly through attrition wear down the Germans when the two weather generals come a calling you can release your reserves and strike back.

The main problem for the Soviet PBEM player is he has to have a very high personnel morale level. Because for the first 1-12 turns or so your going to get your head handed to you over and over, no matter how many defensive lines you throw up in front of the Germans (even against an rookie). Now this is based on my playing the Soviets in 1941 against an extrema master of the Germans (our lead play-tester) and this was before the Soviet lost divisions that come back as shells to be filled.

This does not mean that this run for the hills can't work, but in our tests (with Andy encircling and killing insane amounts of Russians) it has not worked, where as the hedgehog grind does slow down the Germans to historical losses. I think the hedgehog defense could be called a sane forward fighting withdrawal, but if the Soviets attempt to pull the historical things they did they will get dismembered rather quickly.

One last thing on the 41 style of play, it does cost a lot of rail to move out your industrial base out of harms way, and if you run to fast in the south and don't put up a fight not only will you lose units and space but you'll just lost all that Donbas industry.

[ComradeP]

a "Sir Robinovich" (I've never heard it called that before)

During a debate about possible Sir Robin defences, Balou wrote "Sir Robin(ovich)" and I kind of liked the expression.

The Russian player has a difficult juggling act in using his railway capacity to get the industry out vs. moving reinforcements in to to stop the Germans getting to the industry first.

But in this case you're mostly moving men and industry out, and not many men in, because you chose to fall back, so there's less of a balancing act than there would normally be.

I do not think WITE will play like other games, particularly the East Front scenarios in TOAW3 and most particularly, the Fire in the East (FITE) scenario, where the the "Sir Robinovich" strategy has been shown to be very effective to the point where players give up before the end of 1941.

That was what I was thinking of, I've seen a few too many TOAW3 games hit a wall because of a Sir Robin that was unbreakable.

This does not mean that this run for the hills can't work, but in our tests (with Andy encircling and killing insane amounts of Russians) it has not worked, where as the hedgehog grind does slow down the Germans to historical losses. I think the hedgehog defense could be called a sane forward fighting withdrawal, but if the Soviets attempt to pull the historical things they did they will get dismembered rather quickly.

It seems that WitE will indeed require people to relearn everything they thought they knew about playing as the Soviets in a wargame, because in the limited number of other wargames/scenarios covering the War in the East, the Soviets will be utterly clobbered if they try even a limited "forward fighting withdrawal" and the units that arrive as reinforcements are too few in number to attrite the Axis. If the Soviets pull back fairly intact, the Axis usually hit a wall they can't break in time. Of course, I doubt anyone would try the gung ho Soviet strategy of "lets carry the war to Germany" and attack with everything after the start of Barbarossa.

[karonagames]

Prologue:

“Gentlemen, the Leader is returning” the orderly informed the assembled staff of OKH.

Everyone quickly extinguished their cigarettes, and returned to their assigned places in the briefing room.

The Leader commenced:

“I was very surprised by Field Marshal Rommel’s recommendation, but also I was impressed by the Field Marshal’s plans which, as usual, reflect the boldness he demonstrated in his desert campaigns. And I know that Field Marshal Manstein is capable of executing an offensive after a fighting withdrawal as he showed with his re-capture of Kharkhov at the end of last winter”

“If we must cancel Citadel; so be it”

Murmurs swept around the room.

“For Operation Breakwater we shall build our own wall of steel from the Baltic to the Black sea! I will set in place the requisitions for barbed wire, mines and concrete for pill boxes that will enable us to build even stronger defences than the enemy has built around the Kursk salient! During the withdrawal phase I insist that the enemy is counter-attacked at every opportunity, and that counter-attacking “Stosstruppen” are held in reserve behind every division, equipped with the jagdpanzer battalions we have available to maximise the enemies tank losses. Under no account will the strength of our panzer and panzer-grenadier divisions be weakened during this phase. As The Field Marshal, proposed they will Jab like Max Schmeling, before delivering the knock-out punch.”

“For Operation Rising Tide I will ensure that the army is fully equipped to operate during the winter and between now and November, 5 panzer and 5 infantry divisions will be sent to the Eastern Front ; together with at least 20 battalions of JagdPanzers and Tiger tanks. Our objectives will be based on the operational situation when the offensive is launched, but will be broadly based on regaining the essential resources and industry of Kharkhov and the Donbas.”

“I will issue Directive 46 in due course”

“ Gentlemen, we have work to do. Dismissed.”

[karonagames]

In other words, we have stable version of the campaign that we can test to destruction.

I now need to take some time to make sure I do the turn right, Don has amply demonstrated his ability to punish mistakes!

Thank you for your patience.

[Flaviusx]

What is the capacity of the Soviet rail net and how large are factories and units in relation to it? Also, where are the factories located?
 
 
 

[Helpless]

Also, where are the factories located?

Production for 1943 is not done yet. Factories has been upgraded but many of them are not reallocated, i.e. located on occupied territory. But this shouldn't be a big factor for short term testing.

[karonagames]

Not sure we can answer this question, as the numbers keep changing. We will try to let you know when things are finalised.

[Flaviusx]

No worries, just thinking that I'll be spreadsheeting this rail stuff at some point to optimize evacuation priorities once the numbers are in.
 
 
 
 

[Zovs]

Comrades Mikhailov, Zovski, Valiskov                                                                                                                        Strictly Personal

2 July 1943

According to information at our disposal, the Germans may go over to fighting withdrawl to fortified lines between 3-7 July. Our sources indicate that Field Marshall Erwin Rommel has been summoned from his defeats in North Africa to try his hand at command in the east.

The Stavka of the Supreme Commander orders:

1. intensification of reconnaissance and observation of the enemy in order to ensure timely discovery of his intentions;
2. ground troops and aircraft to be at readiness to launch spoiling attacks to prevent or harass the Germans in their attempted withdrawal.
3. As per the decision by me on 22 June the Belgorod-Kharkov operation will then commence when the timing is right based on item 2.
4. The liberation of the Donbas and the drive towards the Dnper will then be timed with the collapse of the German Panther and Wotan lines.

I have appointed Marshall Zhukov in nominal command and under his tutelage have assigned comrade Lazov from Stavka to oversee the operations are running smoothly.

Операция разбить, мусор, теснота и ликвидации

VASILIEV

[karonagames]

Field Marshal Rommel looked at the Surveyors Plans for the Panther-Wotan Line:

[karonagames]

And in the south

[karonagames]

Despite the Leader's extravagant promises, Rommel knew that building a defensive line 1,100 miles long would be a massive undertaking. While much of the line could make use of the natural defences, particularly in swampy areas, much of the line would require significant effort to stand any chance of holding up the enemy.

These areas would be the first to receive the transportation necessary to move the construction materials required.

[Helpless]

Операция разбить, мусор, теснота и ликвидации

VASILIEV

lulz [:D]