Price?

[Rusty1961]

I'm at a loss for words on this. 
A. While I have HTTR, I don't have COTA (?) as the subject doesn't interest me.  Unless this Bulge game is better than HTTR and that said difference is obvious, I'm not inclined to get a game that is basically the same as the one that came out in 2004.   For $90 to $100 it had better be much better.  I haven't investigated how much better it is, I did watch a demo on youtube, so I can't say if it is much better.

B. How long do you think people that these designers can continue to put out games at $39.99????  Hello? This isn't 1992 any more.  Get real.  The cost of EVERYTHING has dramatically gone up.  Movies were $8 in '92 now they're double that in many places.  It is irrational to imagine that the price of a game, especially a quality one, will stay at the prices we paid for them in the '90s. 

C. If I were the game designers, after everything I've seen in this forum, I would tell the rest of you who bitched about the price to pound sand and I'd never do another game again.  Look, if you can't afford this game due to the tough economic situation I understand that, geez, who wouldn't????   But some of you have been down-right insulting to this men and I for one am appalled at how you've responded to their efforts to give our community a game they put many years of hard work into.

So thank you Panther games for giving us this quality game!  Not sure if I'll buy it, but I appreciate your hard work!  [&o]

[kfmiller41]

ORIGINAL: finriswolf

I never post. I am a habitual lurker – but after reading through this thread, I find myself compelled to add my 2 cents (or nonsense rather).
First off, I need to qualify my statement by saying that I will not be purchasing this game – at any price, simply because it is not my kind of game. Now, War in the East, I will be willing to pay $80+ due to the fact that it has been my dream game ever since I spent 300+ hours playing War in Russia on my Atari 800 decades ago (if only I had spent those hours on my high school homework instead of pushing units across Russia…sigh).
One thing everyone should know is that our hobby (computer based wargaming) is a very, very niche market and it is not getting bigger. The PC gaming market in general is shrinking fast – soon to be a niche market itself. So, we will soon be a very, very niche market within a niche market – nano-niche if you will (hah, I crack myself up). We cannot expect more wargame developers to start supporting our hobby, realistically we are stuck with what we have for the most part. We can all count on one hand the good wargame developers we have left (Panther being one of them). Just imagine if this economic tsunami drags down just a couple – say, Panther, AGEOD, and 2by3. Where would our hobby be? Virtually sunk, that’s where. And if any of us think that this pricing structure is in the least bit a case of greedy people wanting to line their pockets, well that is just crazy talk. Panther and Matrix know the market, they know what past and present sales figures look like and they want to survive. They will never get rich, they just want to survive and keep supporting our hobby. If they are pricing this title higher than others, I fully trust that they are doing so because they have to – I have no doubt. They know more than we do as far as the behind the scenes economics of wargame publishing and distribution goes. It serves little purpose to tell them that if they lower the price they will sell more units. They have looked at ALL the angles and the current price tag is what they have decided it will take to continue publishing titles to support our hobby

Things are tight financially for many of us so we all have to carefully consider how and where we spend out limited funds – but seriously, if your situation is such that a $20.00 price increase is enough to send you over the edge like many posters here are doing – perhaps you should not be spending even $50 or $40 on a game. Think about it.

Sorry for all the blah blah blah. Back to lurking I go.

Read thru this entire thread and this poster pretty much sums up my feelings almost exactly. Like him I don't care for this game system, am going to purchase WITE because good eastern front operational games are few and far between and I want to support this publisher. Have been gaming on a PC for many years and Matrix has always done well by me and I have bought many of there titles. If you really want this publisher/developer to continue making these titles, can afford it (and I understand alot of people cannot) and enjoy the subject matter or game system enough then get it. Hell I have spent this much for hard to find well written WW2 books. Military history and war-gaming are my hobbies and for them I save up[:D]

[Sheytan]

Well I will not argue the point you made. I will say this however. Quite a few games coming down the turnpike are priced at 50.00 USD range. There is no arguing that the engine this bulge game is based on is unique and has considerable effort devoted to it.

In the end the consumer will decide if the game was price pegged properly. As I said however I will not be buying it.

Further in reference to the comment about tennis shoes. Did you personally ever buy pair X because Joe Dunk endorsed them? Lolll please.

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I have not purchased the game yet as it would not be a prudent thing for me to do right now. However, that does not mean I think the game is overpriced. I will buy it when I can/should.

I can understand the initial sticker price shock as it is a bit more than most other games. I also have no problem with any developer making a decent living from his work. I would much rather pay a hundred bucks for a well designed game than any amount of bs taxes that are just squandered away by some flake bureaucrat that never created anything. There are innumerable products, some of which are produced with what amounts to slave labor, that are vastly overpriced yet sell well every day of the week. Many brands of tennis shoes cost more than this game. I, for one, get far more use and enjoyment from a good game like this than a pair of slave labor tennis shoes.

Regarding the manual; PDF manuals are great. I have always preferred that to a conventional manual.. I have used 2 monitors on my primary PC for many years now. The cost of a second monitor is very cheap in the long run. For the cost of printing one manual you can have a good LCD. This enables you to have a large view of some pertinent part of the game that you are studying/playing. When you move on to another question, you have a search function to get you there quickly. I have no need for a paperback book which would necessitate keeping a light on next to me while playing the game so I could fumble through its pages-archaic. Reading paper pages is a bedtime activity for me-and has been long before I was “over the hill”.

If you are not buying this game because the price seems unfair, ask yourself what is a fair price. Then consider just how long your ideal price should be kept locked in-5 years maybe? What about ever increasing costs of business and ever increasing taxes? Does a developer of a first class game deserve to have a late model auto as your local tax authorities have? I think they do.

[billyjj]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm at a loss for words on this. 
A. While I have HTTR, I don't have COTA (?) as the subject doesn't interest me.  Unless this Bulge game is better than HTTR and that said difference is obvious, I'm not inclined to get a game that is basically the same as the one that came out in 2004.   For $90 to $100 it had better be much better.  I haven't investigated how much better it is, I did watch a demo on youtube, so I can't say if it is much better.

B. How long do you think people that these designers can continue to put out games at $39.99????  Hello? This isn't 1992 any more.  Get real.  The cost of EVERYTHING has dramatically gone up.  Movies were $8 in '92 now they're double that in many places.  It is irrational to imagine that the price of a game, especially a quality one, will stay at the prices we paid for them in the '90s. 

A) You are correct it is just another WW2 game nothing special.

B) in '92 39.99 got you a box with discs a manual and a game that was 99.99999% bug free. Now you get a digital download, and PDF and a game that needs to be patched every few weeks for the next 2 years before its playable. Movies gradually went up in price, I am sure you could see a movie for 5 cents 100 years ago? So why would a game double in price from one day to the next? 20 years of inflation finally kicking in????? NOT

[Arjuna]

Re robustness of the software. We spend a lot of time on ensuring that our productss are fit for purpose. One of the reasons why BFTB was so long in development was to enssure that when it was released it was as rock solid as we could get it. No developer can guarantee that once released to the public the odd minor bug won't appear. So far we have a couple of very minor issues reported. We will fix these and release a patch in due course. But our record on this speaks for itself. For our previous title we released just three patches. The first two were minor ones released in the first six months. The third was more substantial because we chose to add extra features to the game and came out about a year after release IIRC. Since then virtually no bugs have been reported. Our customers can rely on the fact that they will be getting a well tested product that won't require patching every few weeks. As any professional developer knows providing excellent quality assurance takes time and hence costs money. This has to be reflected in the overall cost of the product.

[SpeedyCM]

Well, everybody else is chipping in so here is my 2c.

I own all 3 of the previous games (RDOA, HTTR and COTA) and love the series however the price in my opinion is just too much.
So unless I manage to check this site when/if it is ever on sale I'm another that won't be buying.

Oh well I guess the local publican can always use my coin. [;)]

[dsawan]

Just wait a yer or for the season sale they usally have here and then pick a copy up. Thats probably the best way for now.

[Badjayhawk]

[font="times new roman"]Bah, I wasn't going to post on this--wasn't even registered on the forums, although I own several Matrix games.  I too had extreme sticker shock when I saw the price.  There's been a lot of talk about gaming "impulse" purchasers, which fits me a great deal of the time.  I've figured what the heck and laid down $19.95 to $40 on games more times than I care to count.  Some turned out to be gems and incredible value for the money.  Most didn't (there's a box full of CD coasters in my basement from pre-DD days).  At whatever mental price threshold, most of us readily assume the risk of buying a game we may shelve after a few days or even hours.

This is most definitely not one of those games in both respects.  The price will stifle impusle buys.  But, at the same time, for those that either liked CoTA or HttR, or who do a little pre-purchase research and who are interested in this theatre, I don't know that there is a better game.  I scoured these and other boards, viewed the concept and tutorial videos a couple of times and, ultimately: (a) couldn't resist buying the game; and (b) felt I made a reasonably informed purchase.  If you're still on the fence, by all means, wait for the demo.  But I'm happy to report I'm blown away by how good this game really is.  Do a little due diligence and most folks will either conclude it isn't their cup of tea or they will KNOW they want it.  If you're in the latter camp like me, waiting for a speculative, possible price drop someday--or refraining from buying as a form of "protest"--will just deprive you of innumerable hours of immense enjoyment.


 
[/font]

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: LRRP

I am very disappointed in this PDF file for the manual story... I may be a little old fashioned but I like a printed manual to read... Going back to the manual issue, if you had more battles I could live without a printed manual, because I am getting a better playing experience with a changing experience of multiple battles in WW2, not just rehashing the same one over and over.

I don't get the logic here. You must have a printed manual because you're old fashioned but you don't want a printed manual afterall.

Why don't you just say say what you mean - you feel that a Battle of the Bulge game that explores the whole campaign in 27 scenarios and with a robust AI is a rip of for you at $80 USD.

There's always this - released in 2001, 20 scenarios (once a sentimental favourite of mine though no longer on my HD) and an AI that struggles at $50USD.

Maybe what Matrix needs is the Shamwow guy to show what "makes sense" [:D]

[Titanwarrior89]

I would have to second that.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Re robustness of the software. We spend a lot of time on ensuring that our productss are fit for purpose. One of the reasons why BFTB was so long in development was to enssure that when it was released it was as rock solid as we could get it. No developer can guarantee that once released to the public the odd minor bug won't appear. So far we have a couple of very minor issues reported. We will fix these and release a patch in due course. But our record on this speaks for itself. For our previous title we released just three patches. The first two were minor ones released in the first six months. The third was more substantial because we chose to add extra features to the game and came out about a year after release IIRC. Since then virtually no bugs have been reported. Our customers can rely on the fact that they will be getting a well tested product that won't require patching every few weeks. As any professional developer knows providing excellent quality assurance takes time and hence costs money. This has to be reflected in the overall cost of the product.

[dsawan]

"If you're in the latter camp like me, waiting for a speculative, possible price drop someday--or refraining from buying as a form of "protest"--will just deprive you of innumerable hours of immense enjoyment"

You forget one hing. people have real,life and play othr games so waiting is really the only option for those who cant afford it.

[Yogi the Great]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

There's always this - released in 2001, 20 scenarios (once a sentimental favourite of mine though no longer on my HD) and an AI that struggles at $50USD.

Maybe what Matrix needs is the Shamwow guy to show what "makes sense" [:D]

Try NWS for $29.99

[Knavery]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Quite a thread.

I noted that PC World had an article today about the game... it was only about the price, I'm sad to say.

I'm one of those buy and try and go on to the next title folks. This pricing goes beyond that for me. I've got too many other games that haven't been given much attention. I intend to spend the summer revisiting prior purchases and kicking the buy and try habit for good. I've got enough games to keep me occupied for the rest of my life... time to quit buying.

Add me to the "might have bought it at $50" crowd... I would have been tempted... honestly.

I'm sure the game is worth your price and I hope you sell tons of them... but I can't be part of the crowd. I'll get my "fix" reading reviews or AAR's.

I read the PC World article and am glad they published it. As I mentioned in another reply, the folks at Matrix can charge what they want, but it's valuable to get what these guys say in published writing--especially what Erik said about this not being the pricing trend going forward. People are going to reference the PC World article if Erik wasn't being entirely truthful, and that's a good thing IMO as it helps the consumer. But this also puts Erik in an ackward position in that he needs to stick by his word or risk looking bad in the public eye--whatever public eye there is for the wargaming genre.

I've read two vastly different responses regarding the pricing model. I'm not sure which is the truth, but I'm quite sure they're related to each other. However, I would have thought these guys had gotten together to come up with an official response rather than providing different answers to the same quesiton. It really puts their motives into question at the expense of the very consumers that keep Matrix and Panther Games in business. But it's not hard to understand what the bottom line is, which is to make more money on units.

The problem I see with the pricing model is that people are going to buy the game anyway. I've witnessed folks all over the forum fold after flat out saying they wouldn't fork over 80-90 dollars for a game. What does this tell us? It tells us that these games are a lot like petrolium--it doesn't matter what the oil companies charge us, because we still buy their products. This directly influences future pricing. If companies realize the consumer base will pay whatever they charge for their products, do you really think they'll move back to an average pricing model? I don't think so... They'll become a boutique and use terms like "military simulations" rather than "games" to justify their decisions.

Food for thought...

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Knavery

I read the PC World article and am glad they published it. As I mentioned in another reply, the folks at Matrix can charge what they want, but it's valuable to get what these guys say in published writing--especially what Erik said about this not being the pricing trend going forward. People are going to reference the PC World article if Erik wasn't being entirely truthful, and that's a good thing IMO as it helps the consumer. But this also puts Erik in an ackward position in that he needs to stick by his word or risk looking bad in the public eye--whatever public eye there is for the wargaming genre.

I've read two vastly different responses regarding the pricing model. I'm not sure which is the truth, but I'm quite sure they're related to each other. However, I would have thought these guys had gotten together to come up with an official response rather than providing different answers to the same quesiton. It really puts their motives into question at the expense of the very consumers that keep Matrix and Panther Games in business. But it's not hard to understand what the bottom line is, which is to make more money on units.

The problem I see with the pricing model is that people are going to buy the game anyway. I've witnessed folks all over the forum fold after flat out saying they wouldn't fork over 80-90 dollars for a game. What does this tell us? It tells us that these games are a lot like petrolium--it doesn't matter what the oil companies charge us, because we still buy their products. This directly influences future pricing. If companies realize the consumer base will pay whatever they charge for their products, do you really think they'll move back to an average pricing model? I don't think so... They'll become a boutique and use terms like "military simulations" rather than "games" to justify their decisions.

Food for thought...

IMO, it is not an either or situation. Look at the games Matrix has in developement, some games are hopefully top-of-the-line models (BftB, WITE, MWIF etc...) that I believe are worth $80.00+. Other games being worked on will probably not come close to being top-of-the-line, it doesn't make them bad games, perhaps its only because they need less extensive effort or resources to create, these will be priced lower. This is the way it should be. Expecting a top-of-the-line product at bargin bin prices will hurt the hobby more in the end.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Try NWS for $29.99

For sure but I'm comparing the publishers' current pricings here obviously.

[NavalNewZ]

Sorry, but just had to chip in. I'm in the category of those that would have purchased this as a 'casual buy'. I was anticipating buying this when I realised it was due for release. My credit card was ready for purchase...but then I saw the price. No Sale. I don't like the system enough for a casual purchase. My wargaming budget has gone elsewhere. I don't accept any of the justifications for the high price given here, relative to other PC wargames. I will keep looking at reviews etc, as I may change my mind. But the price means that I now have to be convinced that it's worth it. I think the pricing of this is a mistake.

Regards...

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Knavery
They'll become a boutique and use terms like "military simulations" rather than "games" to justify their decisions.

No. They ARE a boutique and this IS a military simulation.

Buy your FP Shooter from mass market sources at mass market prices.

I give a prediction that BftB type programs will be dead within a few years because the people producing them will no longer be content with living on bread and marge while people like those on here consider them to be fat cats living on a life of luxury.

... and what amazes me most, is that all this bitching comes from upholders of the Great Capitalist System. I'd expect such comments to emanate from those terrible "liberals/socialists" in Europe!

[goodwoodrw]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

ORIGINAL: Knavery
They'll become a boutique and use terms like "military simulations" rather than "games" to justify their decisions.

No. They ARE a boutique and this IS a military simulation.

Buy your FP Shooter from mass market sources at mass market prices.

I give a prediction that BftB type programs will be dead within a few years because the people producing them will no longer be content with living on bread and marge while people like those on here consider them to be fat cats living on a life of luxury.

... and what amazes me most, is that all this bitching comes from upholders of the Great Capitalist System. I'd expect such comments to emanate from those terrible "liberals/socialists" in Europe!

Hey Ray watch the political content, u might get this thread locked up, Hmmm....... Bloody commo's they want every for nothing, the fat cat libs want everyone to work for nothing, so they can make all the profit and those lefter than left labour bastards want everything so cheap so all the black, red, yellow and white gay welfare recipients can have all our decent games on the PBS, sorry that's the Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme for u illiterates. Well that should get this thread locked [:D] [:D][:D]

[MajFrankBurns]

Well the way I will look at it from now on is it is still in production and when xmas sale 2011 rolls around then it will finally be released and there will never be an xmas sale price on it as the xmas 2011 price will be what it should have been upon release. It's not like we can't live without it. I guess those fans of the series will never see any Battles from the East Front game now. They priced it out of a chance for that.

[PunkReaper]

those terrible "liberals/socialists" in Europe!

eh?