AAR: Fortress Keflavik - GIUK 6.0 - RED

[VictorInThePacific]

Maybe I'm missing the point of this whole exercise, VitP, and if I am, please enlighten me. Isn't your "thesis" true of any naval surface group (regardless of nationality) that lacks air support? In other words:

If you can run the Americans (or British) out of Standards (or Sea Darts), you may be able to attack specific units at specific altitudes where they are defenseless while all the other units stand by helplessly due to range issues. In other words, the 3-dimensional airspace near an American (or British) fleet will be full of holes.

This is partly correct. However, in American fleets, the Standard missile system is present on many ships. So if we get the main air defense ship (eg. a Leahy, which uses SM2ERs, I believe, or fill in the blank with whichever ship is appropriate) to use up all its long-range air defense missiles, many or all of the remaining ships will still have air defense coverage in the entirety of the vertical dimension. So this particular weakness is not really something American fleets have to face.

I have not analyzed British fleets, or those of minor players.

It is a weakness that applies to Soviet fleets, and presumably to any country that uses Soviet technology.

I have showed that, once the Grumbles are used up, ships such as the Sovremenny can be sunk with just a few Harpoons. The entire point defense battery on the ship may as well not exist. Ships such as the Udaloy have a point defense battery with vertical and horizontal limitations, so you can fly by or over them with impunity to get at other ships. This is not something American fleets really have to deal with.

Very few Soviet ships have Grumble launchers.

Mack has also demonstrated that you can fly your attacking bombers right into the thick of the Soviet fleet with impunity (except for tall waves). This is not something you could do to an American fleet.

Corollary to my thesis is that you do not need to absorb or saturate ALL the defensive missiles to score hits on the ships. You are defeating the defensive systems by maneuver, instead of firepower or shock. This becomes especially important if for whatever reason, you cannot simply fly your one Orion back to base a million times and hit the fleet with an infinite number of Harpoons over the course of time, and you are not prepared to sacrifice attacking airplanes.

Not to toot my own horn, but I have also showed how many units of ordnance you have to bring to get past the Grumbles (phase 1, 3rd-order approximation in my Dec. 18 post): 3.5 units per 8 Grumbles. This is a robust number. Mack has confirmed it in practice in his Dec. 17 post: 24 units for 56 Grumbles. Anybody who wants to see the details of this calculation, please let me know.

I have also suggested a mechanism to defeat certain missiles, again by maneuver (comments section in my Dec. 18 post), although at least some people will already be familiar with this mechanism. People will need to experiment with this one to determine if it's actually useful.

(Notwithstanding, of course, and perhaps most importantly, that many of your arguments are based on facts that are no longer true in the modern version of this game - Harpoon: Commander's Edition (HCE) - upon which this forum is premised.

True, and I have apologized for that, as it applies to the sonar changes. Also please note that we are not talking about rules upgrades here; rather it is the characteristics of the weapons and platforms that have been changed, so that the weapon and platform characteristics as initially published are now considered to be wrong. As it applies to this particular thread, the only substantive difference is the height at which a Walleye flies. Everything else works the same. My final, most detailed post (Dec. 18) is, I believe, exactly correct for the current version of Harpoon (HCE). My disclaimer in that post states this right up front.

Which, btw, I again strongly recommend that you buy, so that at the very least, we can all be on the same page when having these discussions).

Working on it. Unfortunately, for technical reasons beyond my control, it is not possible at this time. Obviously, I think that this is a great simulation, otherwise I wouldn't be spending so much time on these discussions.

[mack2]

What is not clear from the 2-D scan is the altitude of your planes. Could that be a factor?

No. I've done it at Medium. I've done it at High. I've done it at Low. None of the Soviet ships shoot at the incoming Nato aircraft until one of the warships is attacked/hit by a missile.

At high, radar on I flew within 5nm of an Udaloy, nothing until after I sunk 6 of their fleet.
At medium, radar on, flew within 4nm of the Slava, nothing until I sunk 7 of them.
At low, radar on, flew within 5nm of an Udaloy, nothing until I sank 5 of them.

The Corsairs only take fire until after they have launched and attacked with their walleyes.

I've only managed to get them to shoot first once, after a flight of Eagles shot down a helo, they then got shot at by the Slava, and another group by the Udaloy. Previously I could shoot down the entire Soviet air units in the group, and not lose a plan unless they got jumped by a Flanker or Forger, or strayed into gun range.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: mack2
None of the Soviet ships shoot at the incoming Nato aircraft until one of the warships is attacked/hit by a missile

Well, that's odd, mack2. Because, as I said, in my test scenario the Soviets started shooting at me before I could get close enough to launch Walleye. Can you please send a savegame to hc3@harpgamer.com ?

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

ORIGINAL: CV32
Maybe I'm missing the point of this whole exercise, VitP, and if I am, please enlighten me. Isn't your "thesis" true of any naval surface group (regardless of nationality) that lacks air support? In other words:

If you can run the Americans (or British) out of Standards (or Sea Darts), you may be able to attack specific units at specific altitudes where they are defenseless while all the other units stand by helplessly due to range issues. In other words, the 3-dimensional airspace near an American (or British) fleet will be full of holes.

This is partly correct.

No. Its actually entirely correct. US Navy battle groups have relied on a single area air defense missile type of quite some time now, the Standard (and variants of it). The Royal Navy has relied in the same way on the Sea Dart. The Soviets, the SA-N-6 Grumble. Most all other navies, those that enjoy area air defense, rely on the same systems, variants of them, or some other American, British, or Soviet (Russian) system.

The fact remains that if you run the USN group out of Standards, the RN out of Sea Darts, or the Soviets out of Grumbles, gaps appear in the formation which can be exploited. Full stop.

However, in American fleets, the Standard missile system is present on many ships.

And does not appear in many others. Take a look at the Knox and Spruance. (We're looking at a GIUK battleset scenario, so I guess we're looking at platforms from that battleset and database).

So if we get the main air defense ship (eg. a Leahy, which uses SM2ERs, I believe, or fill in the blank with whichever ship is appropriate) to use up all its long-range air defense missiles, many or all of the remaining ships will still have air defense coverage in the entirety of the vertical dimension. So this particular weakness is not really something American fleets have to face.

If there were other USN missile escorts, I'd agree. (There often is, because the USN has something to protect: a carrier battle group. And they needed to protect it for obvious reason: it was called Soviet naval aviation). But you've been talking about using sheer firepower (limitless numbers of missiles) to overcome air defenses, so why can't we assume all of the Standards are used up? What happens to the American group then? If we cannot make that assumption, then it's back to a simple issue of numbers. Nothing new here, move along.

It is a weakness that applies to Soviet fleets, and presumably to any country that uses Soviet technology.

The technology is not the problem. Its a weakness that applies to any fleet relying on a single area air defense weapon system, particularly when pitted against overwhelming numbers without the hope of air support.

I have showed that, once the Grumbles are used up, ships such as the Sovremenny can be sunk with just a few Harpoons. The entire point defense battery on the ship may as well not exist. Ships such as the Udaloy have a point defense battery with vertical and horizontal limitations, so you can fly by or over them with impunity to get at other ships. This is not something American fleets really have to deal with.

Wrong. It would be just as easy to show that, once the Standards are used up, ships such as the Knox and Spruance can be sunk even more easily. Compare the RIM-7 Sea Sparrow to the SA-N-4, SA-N-7, and SA-N-9.

Mack has also demonstrated that you can fly your attacking bombers right into the thick of the Soviet fleet with impunity (except for tall waves). This is not something you could do to an American fleet.

Sure you could. Just use up or take out Standard missile shooters at critical junctures of the USN formation. The survivors are meat on the table.

As it applies to this particular thread, the only substantive difference is the height at which a Walleye flies. Everything else works the same. My final, most detailed post (Dec. 18) is, I believe, exactly correct for the current version of Harpoon (HCE). My disclaimer in that post states this right up front.

Well, no, not exactly. A lot of these issues are multi-faceted (we haven't considered electronic warfare, for example), and the results could change considerably based on what battleset or database (and version of Harpoon, most of all) you are using. The database for the GIUK battleset from which this scenario ("Fortress Keflavik") comes, is very different from that used in other HCE battlesets.

Unfortunately, for technical reasons beyond my control, it is not possible at this time. Obviously, I think that this is a great simulation, otherwise I wouldn't be spending so much time on these discussions.

Okay. Not sure what those technical reasons might be, but hopefully you can get up to speed soon. In the meantime, there's a bit of Christmas news for potential Harpooners. [;)]

[mack2]

ORIGINAL: TonyE

Thank you mack2, great AAR. I'm not sure how anyone can stand the light gray land color - to each his own I guess [:)]

haha.

I don't like textured as it blends in too much, especially with RED units, it also is badly pixelated in some maps. Black and Dark Grey are too dark, and make it harder to see units at a glance. Light Grey makes blue easily visible, and red is pretty good as well, I also find it doesn't clash much with range circles.

[john fraz]

Yes, I have an old version! Still have a lot of fun with it, even if it's buggy sometimes.
 
I just played this scenario, and was going online to see if there was any info on some of the platforms in it. A lot of the "soviet" ones are long since decomissioned/scrapped, and it's all old data, but you can sometimes find things.
 
Maybe it's the old version, but I haven't noticed lack of SAM coverage at high altitudes with various types. Generally it boils down to swarming their defenses, and hoping something gets through or they run out of SAMs. (generally a safe way to go). If you've got to agonize over out-maneuvering the limitations of their SAM coverage, then it's time to re-organize to get more strike birds on target with AEW and AAW coverage simultaneously.
A big point is that air superiority wins just about every time, especially if they lack it,
 
If I'm blue in this one (like in most scenarios, either side), I reload everything for AAW first off, and wait for their strikes to come in. Put AEW far out, and fighters farther. Swat down the strikes and eradicate any fighters which accompany them or try to infiltrate to get your AEW.
 
After you've taken out their planes which try to get at you, rearm everything, and send fighters and AEW out first. Load all your Nimrods and Orions for surface strike, and the A-7s for antiradar, the applicable Phantoms also. It's always risky leaving Stornoway lightly defnded, since they might try hitting it with their remaining bombers, but relocate everything to Keflavik to take advantage of the shorter distance to strike the red SAG.
 
With fighters to deal with their fleet air and whatever land based air cover can make it out to the area, bring in your ASM carrying planes as close as possible, and start with the Sea Eagles from the RAF Buccaneers, and Harpoon 1-C from Nimrods and Orions. This is almost 60 missiles, and while their SAN-6s are dedicated to these incoming, the corsairs dash in to launch HARMs (which will get there first). Take out the big CG, CV, and maybe damage or set afire any escorts in the approaching direction, and you'll break the back of the SAG.
 
As Red, reverse everything. Swat Stornoway immediately to eliminate the Nimrods' threat to your subs. Use backfires approaching from the direction of your stopped SAG to draw out their fighters, and if necessary, let the fighters "pursue" them back to within SAM range of your fleet. Keep a couple of Backfires or Bears over your SAG for AEW (the Backfires have slightly less endurance, but they can maneuver to get away from incoming fighters better).
 
Maybe on the first sorty, your bombers will be able to get close enough to Keflavik to launch swarms of missiles, maybe not. I've had instances where it took 3 sorties to eliminate Kevlavik, and find the blue SAG, other times I've done it on the first -though generally there just aren't enough to do serious damage to both the SAG and the land base at once. Get rid of Keflavik, and try to keep bombers out of fighter's way while keeping track on their SAG.
If the Bears go north of everything, to approach Kevflavik from Greenland, while groups of backfires are toying with their fighters to the NE of Iceland, the Bears might find the blue SAG and be able to get in to launch at Keflavik. They'll at least cause Keflavik to use its SAMs, and maybe damage it, so that backfires or Badgers can make launches.
 
As usual, the Red land-based fighters are only minimal help. The Migs can't make it out there, and there are too few "flankers". "Forgers" are generally useless, except to address un-escorted Orions which stray too near, if there are no bombers which can intercept them.
 
 
In this scenario, the blue SAG is generally victory points and an exercise in airborne ASUW for the Reds. Not too hard, if they've got no land-based fighters and you've got a regiment of Backfires and a dozen or so Bears...
If they start out with detection of your SAG from subs, and their SAG is in range, you've generally got a tough situation as described in the OP. You do not want them to get detection of your invasion SAG while you're so far outside effective land-based fighter cover.
Immediately on starting: stop the group to eliminate noise and listen as well as the Red forces are capable of. Get land-based AEW, draw your ships closer together so your precious CZ-capable escorts aren't exposed, and you've got multiple overlapping mutually reinforcing SAM umbrellas -and hope you aren't detected.
 
Stop all your Subs too. Re-orient them so they're heading back north. You want those Victors as better sensors for your SAG, and you don't want them unprotected. Eventually, after you've dealt with the land bases and SAG of the Blues,you can bring your SAG down to Keflavik in plenty of time, and if you've got subs with them, you can split smaller SAW SAGs off with helos and ships and subs in each. (I see no point in lone Foxtrots trying to negotiate the GIUK gap to get into the North Atlantic -especially if they're not bound by victory conditions to do so... It and the Echo 3 -maybe after launching its missiles at the SAG?- head back to dock at your base, and the two Kilos arrange themselves off the coast of Norway, or Keflavik as CZ burglar alarms.)
I've had instances of simply not encountering blue Subs... Lucky to do so. Red ships are almost helpless in the face of torpedoes or SSMs launched from outside their few (single) CZ capable units.
 
If you're blue, there's not much point in continuing after you've broken their SAG. ASW patrols (If you've not lost them, you've got ~20 Orions and Nimrods. Plenty to cover an ocean basin...) Breaking up the SAG into a few widely separated sub/Helo containing ASW SAGs, to sanitize the Norwegian sea...
 
I've always wanted to gather players to do this one with the original Harpoon table-top naval warfare modelling rules. It'd be huge, and the moderator would need a few helpers to keep track of detections as the group moves out of Red land based cover, to the deep water. Model it over the long-term, with a second SAG with additional amphibs and mercvhants to build up the new Soviet base at Iceland. Introduce further blue units as NATO responds and tries to remove them from Iceland and Norway (as the computer game scenarios do). A huge effort, running the entire Norwegian sea theater over the course of weeks. It's hard to ignore the effect of this on the northern European effort, or the North Atlantic, but a hemispheric wargame with dozens of players and over a dozen sessions is too much to realistically consider running. (I can dream though...)

[mack2]

I've had instances of simply not encountering blue Subs... Lucky to do so. Red ships are almost helpless in the face of torpedoes or SSMs launched from outside their few (single) CZ capable units.

One thing I've noticed is that Blue, in almost any scenario, will rarely have more than a handful of subs. Most them might give you a Seawolf, Imp LA or Trafalgar/Swiftsure, along with some SSK's doing coastal patrol or blocking, but on the whole it's rare. Only when you have a specific Sub scenario do you get more than that.

[Andynator]

Hi,

I have been off Harpooning for a long time and just now getting my hand back in.

I have been re-starting playing the GUIK scenarios.  Usually I play Blue side first, then Red.

I didn't have any trouble in this scenario smacking NATO around playing Red (or vice-versa for that matter):

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/Andynator_pics/Image1.jpg

But, here's my question: I did NOT have the Red CV unit that was present when I played first as Blue?  The Soviet Forgers tried to jump my incoming P-3 attack when I played Blue.  So I was wanting to do the same thing since the group ZZS is too far out for air support from Bodo.  But the carrier just wasn't there.  I soldiered on, anyway...

So I guess my question is, is there some randomness when the scenario is first generated, that some capital units may or may not be present?  Because I never considered that possibility before.

Build 2008.044

Thanks,
Andy

[VictorInThePacific]

But, here's my question: I did NOT have the Red CV unit that was present when I played first as Blue? The Soviet Forgers tried to jump my incoming P-3 attack when I played Blue. So I was wanting to do the same thing since the group ZZS is too far out for air support from Bodo. But the carrier just wasn't there. I soldiered on, anyway...

So I guess my question is, is there some randomness when the scenario is first generated, that some capital units may or may not be present? Because I never considered that possibility before.

Yes, there is definitely a random aspect to an OB. Some units will always be there. Some will not.

Check out the introductory section of my "No Man's Land" AAR for a brief discussion of this in the context of that scenario.

You can also look at your own forces (order of battle, unit list). Each ship or sub has a designation. You may see some "holes" in the sequence of numbers. Those are unit slots where you unfortunately didn't get the unit this time.

P.S. Eagles laugh at Forgers. Provided the pilots aren't laughing to hard to shoot straight, the Forgers are meat. Keflavik is real close ...

[Andynator]

>>P.S. Eagles laugh at Forgers.
 
True enough.  But if I can drive one in fast enough to splash an Orion or two, it's a good day.  And the AI is not so hot at running a fighter sweep before turning the bombers downhill.

[Anonymous]

Hi all,
 
very interesting discussion about OOBs and tactics. This scenario is one I´ve always loved, back to my first Harpoon Classic installation (think it was 1.3 for DOS in 1991). How often did I play it!
 
This scen suffers, like so many others from the old times, from the desperate try to create a balanced scen for playing both sides. The usual result of these efforts was that you got a milk run no matter playing blue or red - but it still was fun [8D]
 
I´m on my way writing both a Nato side only and a Soviet side only variation of this legendary scen; using the old database and trying not to throw the old philosophy over board. 
 
Regards,
Ralf

[Anonymous]

Hello,

here we are: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... owfile=501

This is a modified version of GIUK 6.0 "Fortress Kevlavik". This one is meant to be played Soviet side, the counterpart focusing on Nato side is soon to follow.

Regards,
Ralf

[old tico]

Interesting reading. In the old multiplayer game this was one of the more balanced scanarios. When playing the Sovs I used the Forgers to try and soak up some of the Harpoon strikes. As has already been discussed, the Sovs need to buy time to get their heavy missile strikes in, and it was usually a race to see which survived longest--Keflavik or the Sov carrier.