Ozzie Jungle Divisions - Question

[JWE]

I’m dinking a teensy bit with Australian TO&Es, and am looking at the Jungle (Tropical) Scale Division.
In Nov. ’42, the Bn HQ had Mortar, Carrier, AA and AT, Pltns – still had MG Bns at Div level
In June ’43, the Bn HQ had Mortar, AT, and MMG Pltns : In May ’44 – same : In Nov. ’46 – same.
Understand that the Carrier and AA plts were consolidated into a Div level Carrier Company, and a Div level Lt AA Bn. Also understand the Arty Brigade was replaced by a single Arty Bn – thus no arty level AA/AT Bns.

So, given all that, here’s the questions:

1) Easy one - Did the June ’43 (and on) establishment “also” have “integral” MMG Bns in the establishment – not just did one show up here or there, but “on the Tables”? If you can, please provide III/62 number.

2) Hard one – Given the ‘truth’, jungle divisions are really puny in game terms. There’s only 12 equivalent Bren sections (instead of 39); 18 Vickers sections (instead of 24), so Assault Value drops by 5% right there (not too bad). Pre-assault fire phase firepower drops significantly, however, because of the reduced arty component (24 vs 72).

Present TO&E doesn’t quite reflect all this (i.e., there’s 156 AV capable Cmbt Eng, Bren and Vickers sections, when there’s really only 48 – and there’s 56 arty, when there’s really only 24), and since I want to bump firepower a skoosh, I’m thinking of doubling the arty Bns – giving a jungle div 2x arty Bns with ‘short’ 25 pounders (i.e., 48 vs 24). Thinking is there was a few of the old arty Bns hanging around that would likely get assigned as ‘augmentations’, so what the hey. “Roughly” same as stock toe, but more balanced with the Babes toe version. Indeed, it’s what happened, on an ad-hoc basis, in later ’44, after the jungle toe was shown to be undesirable.

Thoughts? Comments?

[chesmart]

Will it make that much of a gaming difference if you use the historical TOE ? Because if it does not make that much of a difference i would go for the historical TOE, if it does your solution is the best.

[Andy Mac]

Obviously I have to say I think what we have now in game is more or less historically correct as I did the original OOB.

9 Inf Bns each 36 Inf Sections 2 MMG Sections and 2 C Engr Sections and 6 x 3" Morters
3 x Fd Engr Coys (48 C Egr Sqds)
2 x Field Arty Regts each 24 x 25 pounders
1 x Mountain Gun Battery 8 x 3.7" Mtn Guns
1 x MG Bn 24 x MMG's (12 Platoons each with 4 MMG's)
1 x Div Bren Coy - mounted (10 x Bren Sections)
2 - 3 x Indpt Companies (Total 20 - 30 Bren Sections no carriers just assault sections)
1 x Tank Attack Batteries 12 x 2 Pounders

I ignored the Tank Sqn, Pioneer Bn and Hvy AA battery that were attached the only thing that is arguable is there may be about 10 Bren sections too many as I assumed 3 Indpt Companies where most Divs deployed with 2

[herwin]

The Australian tropical scale division reduced its heavy equipment to give it better tactical mobility in the jungle. The Indian and British Armies in India/Burma did something similar, except that Slim decided to use air transport to replace the motor transport employed in most Commonwealth divisions. The USMC division shed its motor transport but actually tripled its squad level firepower.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Obviously I have to say I think what we have now in game is more or less historically correct as I did the original OOB.

9 Inf Bns each 36 Inf Sections 2 MMG Sections and 2 C Engr Sections and 6 x 3" Morters
3 x Fd Engr Coys (48 C Egr Sqds)
2 x Field Arty Regts each 24 x 25 pounders
1 x Mountain Gun Battery 8 x 3.7" Mtn Guns
1 x MG Bn 24 x MMG's (12 Platoons each with 4 MMG's)
1 x Div Bren Coy - mounted (10 x Bren Sections)
2 - 3 x Indpt Companies (Total 20 - 30 Bren Sections no carriers just assault sections)
1 x Tank Attack Batteries 12 x 2 Pounders

I ignored the Tank Sqn, Pioneer Bn and Hvy AA battery that were attached the only thing that is arguable is there may be about 10 Bren sections too many as I assumed 3 Indpt Companies where most Divs deployed with 2

Hi Andy,

Not saying it is incorrect at all. Pretty darn good actually. But we're looking to put establishment on the establishment basis and make the Corps troops as Corps troops. So structure will be a bit different. I have a nice monograph about Jungle Divisions that Dr. Albert Palazzo wrote when he was on the staff of the School of History at the Australian Defence Force Academy. It’s got some cool things in it, including even vehicle scales, lift requirement vs capacity, all kinds of stuff. And the endnotes reference the AWM Item #s for just about everything. Makes it easy to call over and get stuff.

Attached as a zip just fer ya’ll.

[JWE]

Whoops. Andy reminded me of some game mechanics stuff. Maybe this isn't such a good idea. Guess we'll stick the Corps troops back into the divisions. Never mind.