invasion ship composition help
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
invasion ship composition help
I'm just fixing to start the major invasions to retake that which the AI took early on as I'm getting the LSTs & now the APA convserions & wondering what I should use more of - should I base the invasion tf on LST's or APA's (when they come out of the shipyard upgrade)? Is one better than the other in preventing the loss of troops/disruption? Other things to consider?
Right now I've got the major bases of Lunga/Tulagi & Tarawa to break as the AI has forward deployed it's troops to those bases w/ what looks to be 30k on each Lunga/Tulagi w/ 2-3 Inf Div being involved but not much on Tarawa but a CD to create some havoc though I've run a couple of CA tf w/ escorts to bomb & they've not come under fire so I might be safe there.
Right now I've got the major bases of Lunga/Tulagi & Tarawa to break as the AI has forward deployed it's troops to those bases w/ what looks to be 30k on each Lunga/Tulagi w/ 2-3 Inf Div being involved but not much on Tarawa but a CD to create some havoc though I've run a couple of CA tf w/ escorts to bomb & they've not come under fire so I might be safe there.
RE: invasion ship composition help
I'm in 1/43 and am preparing an invasion of Tarawa. I've got the following TF's involved:
3x Heavy Aviation TF's:
2xCV, 2xCA, 2xCLAA (one has 2x CL), 8xDD
I am planning on setting 2 to bombar the port and airfield, the third will stay in reserve in case of enemy naval action
1 x Escort Aviation
3 x CVE, 2x CL, 6x DD
These will ride with the surface units to the target to provide point CAP
1x Bombardment
6x BB, 4x CA, 2x CL, 6x DD
This will end up splitting into two surface action groups after 3 days of bombardment
1x Mine Sweeping
4x DMS, 4x AM
Replenishment I
Lots of AO + AE
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Replenishment II
4x CVE with the replacement aircraft
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Main Assault Force
3x BB, 2x CA, 2x CL, 4x DMS + Sea Lift (All AP/AK no "x" ships)
3rd Marine Division, 2x Combat Engineer Regiments, 3rd Marine Tanks, some odds and ends
Reserve Force
1x BB, 2x CA, DD + Sea Lift
Bunch of this and that. Raider Battalions, tank battalions, etc. Open in case of emergency. Wish I had another marine division all things being equal.
Follow on Force
Lots of Base units, seabees, support, and LBA
Cargo Lift
Auxillary Support
AD, AS, AR, AG, AV
To be disbanded once the base is secured
3x Heavy Aviation TF's:
2xCV, 2xCA, 2xCLAA (one has 2x CL), 8xDD
I am planning on setting 2 to bombar the port and airfield, the third will stay in reserve in case of enemy naval action
1 x Escort Aviation
3 x CVE, 2x CL, 6x DD
These will ride with the surface units to the target to provide point CAP
1x Bombardment
6x BB, 4x CA, 2x CL, 6x DD
This will end up splitting into two surface action groups after 3 days of bombardment
1x Mine Sweeping
4x DMS, 4x AM
Replenishment I
Lots of AO + AE
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Replenishment II
4x CVE with the replacement aircraft
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Main Assault Force
3x BB, 2x CA, 2x CL, 4x DMS + Sea Lift (All AP/AK no "x" ships)
3rd Marine Division, 2x Combat Engineer Regiments, 3rd Marine Tanks, some odds and ends
Reserve Force
1x BB, 2x CA, DD + Sea Lift
Bunch of this and that. Raider Battalions, tank battalions, etc. Open in case of emergency. Wish I had another marine division all things being equal.
Follow on Force
Lots of Base units, seabees, support, and LBA
Cargo Lift
Auxillary Support
AD, AS, AR, AG, AV
To be disbanded once the base is secured
- topeverest
- Posts: 3381
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:47 am
- Location: Houston, TX - USA
RE: invasion ship composition help
Gnome,
I think you have a future or a past in logistics. This is a pretty good list.
If this is a major invasion with expected countermoves from your opponent you might want to consider these:
1. add up to 10 single ship convoys to search the advanced perimiter cone of your combat zone from the axis the enemy will come, like 8 -12 DD / pg convoys that push out ahead and provide advanced warning. these pickets are very effective in catching approaching ships and when used in combination with sea and land searches, you wont miss anything.
2. it is advisable in my experience to have several 3-4 dd convoys (perhaps with a CL) on surface combat / large reaction milling around the inside of your defensive perimiter. They function to stop any raiding convoys and help with subs. They also can go after enemy main BB or CV task forces if they get too close
3. prep your initial attack land units to 100
4. Use paratroopers or subs TP's to take a beach / dot hex nearby the intended target at least one turn in advance of the attack. Pulse in patrol planes and drop off by air transport part of a eng unit. use other patrol to drop supplies. get a few patrol units in and use as a seaplane base. Use AV types anchored if possible too.
these additonal factors probably both help ferret out potential countermoves, it also further solidifies your chances of success.
I think you have a future or a past in logistics. This is a pretty good list.
If this is a major invasion with expected countermoves from your opponent you might want to consider these:
1. add up to 10 single ship convoys to search the advanced perimiter cone of your combat zone from the axis the enemy will come, like 8 -12 DD / pg convoys that push out ahead and provide advanced warning. these pickets are very effective in catching approaching ships and when used in combination with sea and land searches, you wont miss anything.
2. it is advisable in my experience to have several 3-4 dd convoys (perhaps with a CL) on surface combat / large reaction milling around the inside of your defensive perimiter. They function to stop any raiding convoys and help with subs. They also can go after enemy main BB or CV task forces if they get too close
3. prep your initial attack land units to 100
4. Use paratroopers or subs TP's to take a beach / dot hex nearby the intended target at least one turn in advance of the attack. Pulse in patrol planes and drop off by air transport part of a eng unit. use other patrol to drop supplies. get a few patrol units in and use as a seaplane base. Use AV types anchored if possible too.
these additonal factors probably both help ferret out potential countermoves, it also further solidifies your chances of success.
Andy M
- CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Virginia, USA
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: The Gnome
I'm in 1/43 and am preparing an invasion of Tarawa. I've got the following TF's involved:
. . .
Replenishment II
4x CVE with the replacement aircraft
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Are you able to use replenishment CVEs as early as 1/43? I remember in WitP it was 44 before this capability became available.
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: The Gnome
I'm in 1/43 and am preparing an invasion of Tarawa. I've got the following TF's involved:
3x Heavy Aviation TF's:
2xCV, 2xCA, 2xCLAA (one has 2x CL), 8xDD
I am planning on setting 2 to bombar the port and airfield, the third will stay in reserve in case of enemy naval action
1 x Escort Aviation
3 x CVE, 2x CL, 6x DD
These will ride with the surface units to the target to provide point CAP
1x Bombardment
6x BB, 4x CA, 2x CL, 6x DD
This will end up splitting into two surface action groups after 3 days of bombardment
1x Mine Sweeping
4x DMS, 4x AM
Replenishment I
Lots of AO + AE
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Replenishment II
4x CVE with the replacement aircraft
Primary mission Fuel/Ammo ressuply
Main Assault Force
3x BB, 2x CA, 2x CL, 4x DMS + Sea Lift (All AP/AK no "x" ships)
3rd Marine Division, 2x Combat Engineer Regiments, 3rd Marine Tanks, some odds and ends
Reserve Force
1x BB, 2x CA, DD + Sea Lift
Bunch of this and that. Raider Battalions, tank battalions, etc. Open in case of emergency. Wish I had another marine division all things being equal.
Follow on Force
Lots of Base units, seabees, support, and LBA
Cargo Lift
Auxillary Support
AD, AS, AR, AG, AV
To be disbanded once the base is secured
I'm in mid-1945, so Tarawa is months of real-time ago, but I sort of recall it. As others have said, this is a pretty good force, well distributed. I'd also add more small-boy surface fighters.
In 1943 your AE won't do underway replenishment. If you brought it to disband it afterward, OK.
I "think" you have enough infantry, but I'd bring more. Maybe two Army regiments. The Marines are probably enough, unless you lose some landing ships. They may be disrupted in the landing as well. More infantry is good. On a small island you need to pull them off ASAP once the fight is over, but you have to win first.
Three days of bombardment will see your BBs out of ammo before Day 3. I don't recall Tarawa's CD (there are some really nasty ones on other islands in that area), but by Day 3 you may want to consider Escorts Bombard. Or not.
Let us know how it goes.
The Moose
RE: invasion ship composition help
INteresting and informative list, have to remember this when I start to retake land and islands off the IJ!
How do you get the CVE's on Replentish to actually replentish losses in the fast strike carrier groups when they get into combat. What seeting do you need for them and the squadrons/units on their decks? Not got this far yet but it's nice to know in advance!
How do you get the CVE's on Replentish to actually replentish losses in the fast strike carrier groups when they get into combat. What seeting do you need for them and the squadrons/units on their decks? Not got this far yet but it's nice to know in advance!
RE: invasion ship composition help
I would mix some DMS into the bombardment group as well.
"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

RE: invasion ship composition help
Topeverest.
In your informative response to Gnome, you say "pulse in" patrol planes to a newly-captured dot base.... I don't know that term; pls. explain...
Regards,
Helldiver
In your informative response to Gnome, you say "pulse in" patrol planes to a newly-captured dot base.... I don't know that term; pls. explain...
Regards,
Helldiver
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: xj900uk
INteresting and informative list, have to remember this when I start to retake land and islands off the IJ!
How do you get the CVE's on Replentish to actually replentish losses in the fast strike carrier groups when they get into combat. What seeting do you need for them and the squadrons/units on their decks? Not got this far yet but it's nice to know in advance!
I haven't dealt with replenishment CVEs directly, as CVEs go up like fireworks if you look hard at them, so I tend to keep them back. I just send the CVs back for planes in early war years, and later on I have enough close ports like Saipan or Manila to replenish directly.
That said, I "think" the designated replacement squadrons auto-re-populate any like-type CV squadrons IF the CVE is in extended range during the aircraft replacement phase. I could be wrong on the range, but that's what I recall from earlier discussions. Might try the Search feature for old threads.
The Moose
RE: invasion ship composition help
Thanks man, and terrific suggestions, I'm going to incorporate some more surface action groups. I wish I were actually better with logistics, I have the 1st and 2nd Marine divisions stuck down in Noumea, and a couple of Marine regiments carding a pile of fuel and supplies at Pago Pago. All are just collecting dust.ORIGINAL: topeverest
Gnome,
I think you have a future or a past in logistics. This is a pretty good list.
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I "think" you have enough infantry, but I'd bring more. Maybe two Army regiments. The Marines are probably enough, unless you lose some landing ships. They may be disrupted in the landing as well. More infantry is good. On a small island you need to pull them off ASAP once the fight is over, but you have to win first.
Three days of bombardment will see your BBs out of ammo before Day 3. I don't recall Tarawa's CD (there are some really nasty ones on other islands in that area), but by Day 3 you may want to consider Escorts Bombard. Or not.
I agree and would LOVE more infantry, I'm half tempted to push the jump-off date back until I can get a division back from SoPac, and get it's prep up. That could push things back a couple of months though and would put me into 3/43 without a major offensive. Outside of some naval battles I spent all of '42 setting up supply lines and securing the US->Oz corridor (SF->PH -> Pago Pago -> Noumea -> Bris).
The American people are growing impatient at a perceived lack of progress! (plus I want to see things go *boom*). I may end up pushing things back a few weeks so I can get some extra destroyers in from San Fran.
RE: invasion ship composition help
Geeze [8|] ask a simple question around some grognards & get a complex answer [:'(][;)] JK
Helpful info nonetheless & thankfull for it & I would assume by looking at some of the link to other posts on the subject the answer would probably be APA's over LST's. I don't have the AKA's yet but just the APA, LST, LSI & barges so I'd guess the APA for troops & LST's for supply & tanks would be about my makeup.
Gnome I think we're probably close to one another on strategy at this time as I used the early part of the war to setup that line of defense. I'm getting into 3/43 & I'm fixing to start my offensives in the Central & South Pacific in earnest as I've been building up the area in bases as well as troops & prepping them for where I want them to go so I can spend a month or so on the offense before resetting destinations for the troops. I have retaken Naurau & Ocean Island & put a base force there w/ a VMF & VP squadron for recon/naval search to the Marshalls but I've been on the offesive in New Guinea & fixing to drive onto Wewak & Timor. I don't think I'll have many problems initially in the Marshall's offensive but maybe at Kwajalein & islands around it. I do think I'll have a tough nut to crack at Lunga/Tulagi but I may end up jumping past them to Shortlands & use that base to maintain them as a prison camp/training target for ships/planes.
Helpful info nonetheless & thankfull for it & I would assume by looking at some of the link to other posts on the subject the answer would probably be APA's over LST's. I don't have the AKA's yet but just the APA, LST, LSI & barges so I'd guess the APA for troops & LST's for supply & tanks would be about my makeup.
Gnome I think we're probably close to one another on strategy at this time as I used the early part of the war to setup that line of defense. I'm getting into 3/43 & I'm fixing to start my offensives in the Central & South Pacific in earnest as I've been building up the area in bases as well as troops & prepping them for where I want them to go so I can spend a month or so on the offense before resetting destinations for the troops. I have retaken Naurau & Ocean Island & put a base force there w/ a VMF & VP squadron for recon/naval search to the Marshalls but I've been on the offesive in New Guinea & fixing to drive onto Wewak & Timor. I don't think I'll have many problems initially in the Marshall's offensive but maybe at Kwajalein & islands around it. I do think I'll have a tough nut to crack at Lunga/Tulagi but I may end up jumping past them to Shortlands & use that base to maintain them as a prison camp/training target for ships/planes.
RE: invasion ship composition help
Ok here are the results. I'll go with a summary, lessons learned, then the raw combat report
NOTE:
Day 1
2 Air Combat TF's with two CV's each begin clearing naval units in the landing area and environs. For secondary missions, one TF is tasked with Airfield surpression, the other with port attack. Several Small enemy cargo TF's are caught by surprise and sunk.
Day 2
Port and Airfield strikes continue. Shokaku is spotted moving south just west of Kwajelin by Wahoo, who subsequently puts two fish in her side. I consolidated my two TF's into the same hex for mutual protection, but Shokaku was not heard from again. An inconsequential airstrike is launched from Tarawa that is fully splashed
Day 3
Port and Airfields continue to be pounded. I start to think I have my carriers too far ahead and fear them running out of sorties just as the enemy responds with large naval forces.
Day 4
Assault force is two days out, set my 3rd Av TF to pure naval attack and a large reaction range, it is set to stand one hex off of Tarawa. I set my Escort Av. TF bomber squadrons to ground attack, who join in with the large CV strikes. Tarawa is taking a pounding. Very worried about Av TF # 1 and 2, getting really low on sorties.
Day 5
Air Strikes on Tarawa continue unabated. No signs of enemy action. ATF #1 and 2 are winchester and ordered back to the barn. I hope this doesn't come back to haunt me.
Day 6
Bombardment TF opens up on a Tarawa, results unclear. No ships damaged by coastal guns. Escort CV's continue to launch bombers on ground attack. No signs of the enemy.
Day 7
Bombardment group used a LOT more ammo than I expected. Since there was no effective counter fire from Tarawa I allow the escorts to join in the bombardment. Escorts launch more airstrikes.
Day 8
Wanted 3 days of bombardment, but ammo is low. Decide to send in the Marines, who hit the beaches with ferocity and courage. Against expectations, the Marines take relatively light casualties. Forcing themselves inland the Marines successfully take the port and airfield. Japanese forces remain on the island but the mop up has begun.
Lessons Learned:
1 - Should NOT have had my carriers so far ahead, I would have been caught with my pants down if the enemy showed up when they were winchester.
2- I need to learn how to scout more effectively for targets out of range of air recon.
3 - Sent way too much supply
4 - Loaded up my TF's in the wrong order, should have loaded replenishment first, then cargo, then troops
5 - Not enough reserves. Really took a risk sending a single division, plus support.
6 - Not enough bombardment. Had 4 BB's in with my transports (3 with main assault, 1 with the reserves). 1 for each should have been enough, and could have formed a second bombardment tf.
Raw results:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Tarawa
59 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
CA Indianapolis
CA Portland
CL Detroit
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Mugford
AP William Ward Burrows
DMS Southard
LST-446
Japanese ground losses:
112 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
BB Mississippi firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
BB New Mexico firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
BB Idaho firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Indianapolis firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Portland firing at 7th Base Force
CL Detroit firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Ralph Talbot firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Mugford firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Ralph Talbot firing at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 4,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Tarawa
TF 121 troops unloading over beach at Tarawa, 136,128
Allied ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 43 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 12 (0 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 108 (0 destroyed, 108 disabled)
5 troops of a US MMG Section accidentally lost during unload of 3rd Marine Div /1
5 troops of a US MMG Section lost from landing craft during unload of 3rd Marine Div /1
13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad lost in surf during unload of 3rd Marine Div
13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad lost overboard during unload of 3rd Marine Div /7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Tarawa
14 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
CA Indianapolis
CA Portland
CL Detroit
AP William Ward Burrows
DMS Southard
Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
BB Mississippi firing at 7th Base Force
BB New Mexico firing at 7th Base Force
BB Idaho firing at 7th Base Force
CA Indianapolis firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Portland firing at 7th Base Force
CL Detroit firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 64th Naval Guard Unit, at 136,128 (Tarawa)
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 44 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 62
TBF-1 Avenger x 27
Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Tarawa
13 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
LST-446
DMS Southard
Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tarawa (136,128)
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 14646 troops, 308 guns, 411 vehicles, Assault Value = 648
Defending force 5736 troops, 45 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 131
Allied adjusted assault: 234
Japanese adjusted defense: 34
Allied assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 4)
Allied forces CAPTURE Tarawa !!!
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)
Japanese ground losses:
2079 casualties reported
Squads: 60 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 55 destroyed, 35 disabled
Engineers: 13 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
628 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 34 destroyed, 129 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 73 (18 destroyed, 55 disabled)
Assaulting units:
3rd Marine Div /2
102nd Combat Engr Rgt /1
34th Combat Engr Rgt /1
193rd Tank Bn /2
3rd USMC Parachute Bn /1
3rd USMC Tank Bn /5
Defending units:
64th Naval Guard Unit
24th Nav Gsn Unit
7th Base Force
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64th Naval Guard Unit Wiped Out at Tarawa by attrition!!!
NOTE:
Day 1
2 Air Combat TF's with two CV's each begin clearing naval units in the landing area and environs. For secondary missions, one TF is tasked with Airfield surpression, the other with port attack. Several Small enemy cargo TF's are caught by surprise and sunk.
Day 2
Port and Airfield strikes continue. Shokaku is spotted moving south just west of Kwajelin by Wahoo, who subsequently puts two fish in her side. I consolidated my two TF's into the same hex for mutual protection, but Shokaku was not heard from again. An inconsequential airstrike is launched from Tarawa that is fully splashed
Day 3
Port and Airfields continue to be pounded. I start to think I have my carriers too far ahead and fear them running out of sorties just as the enemy responds with large naval forces.
Day 4
Assault force is two days out, set my 3rd Av TF to pure naval attack and a large reaction range, it is set to stand one hex off of Tarawa. I set my Escort Av. TF bomber squadrons to ground attack, who join in with the large CV strikes. Tarawa is taking a pounding. Very worried about Av TF # 1 and 2, getting really low on sorties.
Day 5
Air Strikes on Tarawa continue unabated. No signs of enemy action. ATF #1 and 2 are winchester and ordered back to the barn. I hope this doesn't come back to haunt me.
Day 6
Bombardment TF opens up on a Tarawa, results unclear. No ships damaged by coastal guns. Escort CV's continue to launch bombers on ground attack. No signs of the enemy.
Day 7
Bombardment group used a LOT more ammo than I expected. Since there was no effective counter fire from Tarawa I allow the escorts to join in the bombardment. Escorts launch more airstrikes.
Day 8
Wanted 3 days of bombardment, but ammo is low. Decide to send in the Marines, who hit the beaches with ferocity and courage. Against expectations, the Marines take relatively light casualties. Forcing themselves inland the Marines successfully take the port and airfield. Japanese forces remain on the island but the mop up has begun.
Lessons Learned:
1 - Should NOT have had my carriers so far ahead, I would have been caught with my pants down if the enemy showed up when they were winchester.
2- I need to learn how to scout more effectively for targets out of range of air recon.
3 - Sent way too much supply
4 - Loaded up my TF's in the wrong order, should have loaded replenishment first, then cargo, then troops
5 - Not enough reserves. Really took a risk sending a single division, plus support.
6 - Not enough bombardment. Had 4 BB's in with my transports (3 with main assault, 1 with the reserves). 1 for each should have been enough, and could have formed a second bombardment tf.
Raw results:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Tarawa
59 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
CA Indianapolis
CA Portland
CL Detroit
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Mugford
AP William Ward Burrows
DMS Southard
LST-446
Japanese ground losses:
112 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
BB Mississippi firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
BB New Mexico firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
BB Idaho firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Indianapolis firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Portland firing at 7th Base Force
CL Detroit firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Ralph Talbot firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Mugford firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
DD Ralph Talbot firing at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 4,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Tarawa
TF 121 troops unloading over beach at Tarawa, 136,128
Allied ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 43 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 12 (0 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 108 (0 destroyed, 108 disabled)
5 troops of a US MMG Section accidentally lost during unload of 3rd Marine Div /1
5 troops of a US MMG Section lost from landing craft during unload of 3rd Marine Div /1
13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad lost in surf during unload of 3rd Marine Div
13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad lost overboard during unload of 3rd Marine Div /7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Tarawa
14 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
CA Indianapolis
CA Portland
CL Detroit
AP William Ward Burrows
DMS Southard
Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
BB Mississippi firing at 7th Base Force
BB New Mexico firing at 7th Base Force
BB Idaho firing at 7th Base Force
CA Indianapolis firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
CA Portland firing at 7th Base Force
CL Detroit firing at 24th Nav Gsn Unit
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 64th Naval Guard Unit, at 136,128 (Tarawa)
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 44 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 62
TBF-1 Avenger x 27
Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Tarawa
13 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
LST-446
DMS Southard
Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tarawa (136,128)
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 14646 troops, 308 guns, 411 vehicles, Assault Value = 648
Defending force 5736 troops, 45 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 131
Allied adjusted assault: 234
Japanese adjusted defense: 34
Allied assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 4)
Allied forces CAPTURE Tarawa !!!
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)
Japanese ground losses:
2079 casualties reported
Squads: 60 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 55 destroyed, 35 disabled
Engineers: 13 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
628 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 34 destroyed, 129 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 73 (18 destroyed, 55 disabled)
Assaulting units:
3rd Marine Div /2
102nd Combat Engr Rgt /1
34th Combat Engr Rgt /1
193rd Tank Bn /2
3rd USMC Parachute Bn /1
3rd USMC Tank Bn /5
Defending units:
64th Naval Guard Unit
24th Nav Gsn Unit
7th Base Force
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64th Naval Guard Unit Wiped Out at Tarawa by attrition!!!
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: jcjordan
Geeze [8|] ask a simple question around some grognards & get a complex answer [:'(][;)] JK
Helpful info nonetheless & thankfull for it & I would assume by looking at some of the link to other posts on the subject the answer would probably be APA's over LST's. I don't have the AKA's yet but just the APA, LST, LSI & barges so I'd guess the APA for troops & LST's for supply & tanks would be about my makeup.
Gnome I think we're probably close to one another on strategy at this time as I used the early part of the war to setup that line of defense. I'm getting into 3/43 & I'm fixing to start my offensives in the Central & South Pacific in earnest as I've been building up the area in bases as well as troops & prepping them for where I want them to go so I can spend a month or so on the offense before resetting destinations for the troops. I have retaken Naurau & Ocean Island & put a base force there w/ a VMF & VP squadron for recon/naval search to the Marshalls but I've been on the offesive in New Guinea & fixing to drive onto Wewak & Timor. I don't think I'll have many problems initially in the Marshall's offensive but maybe at Kwajalein & islands around it. I do think I'll have a tough nut to crack at Lunga/Tulagi but I may end up jumping past them to Shortlands & use that base to maintain them as a prison camp/training target for ships/planes.
LOL!
Yeah, in my game the Japanese pushed hard to cut off Oz, and I think, over committed. I was going to follow history and roll them up the Solomons and then Island hop, but CentPac is so under-defended I'm going to try to turn SoPac into a massive, multi-base prison camp. If I can cut off Japan from the supply lines early, I could win a relatively easy victory. I don't have enough LBA to pull this off just yet, by if I can have a major base or two in the Marshalls by mid-late '43 I'll be happy.
RE: invasion ship composition help
It's a pretty good list there, more detailed than I ever do. But some basic pointers:
1. Mix DMS with transports; even if they are not in a "Minesweeping" TF, they will sweep some mines. If you put in Bombardment TF, they might get killed by CD guns.
2. Always mix a CL/CA or two in with your transport TFs; they will absorb most of the gunfire back, and keep it away from transports. Old cruisers are particularly useful here (for Allies, Dutch, Omahas, etc; for IJN, the Katoris)
3. Always take at least a couple transports that ONLY have supply. The reason is that supply always unloads AFTER troops, so if you don't do that the first wave will hit the beach with very little supply. If there are transports with only supply, they will start unloading supplies immediately. This is particularly important assaulting ATOLLS.
1. Mix DMS with transports; even if they are not in a "Minesweeping" TF, they will sweep some mines. If you put in Bombardment TF, they might get killed by CD guns.
2. Always mix a CL/CA or two in with your transport TFs; they will absorb most of the gunfire back, and keep it away from transports. Old cruisers are particularly useful here (for Allies, Dutch, Omahas, etc; for IJN, the Katoris)
3. Always take at least a couple transports that ONLY have supply. The reason is that supply always unloads AFTER troops, so if you don't do that the first wave will hit the beach with very little supply. If there are transports with only supply, they will start unloading supplies immediately. This is particularly important assaulting ATOLLS.
RE: invasion ship composition help
My Marshall plan is 2 maybe 3 pronged - I plan on rolling up from Tarawa/Makin in one thrust & retake Wake in another from PH & maybe north from Naurau/Suva to isolate the entire region as from recon it looks like the AI put most of the troops/air in Kwajalein & surrounding islands. In my game the AI did make minor moves to Luganville & Efate which I defeated fairly easily but forward deployed many troops at Lunga/Tulagi but nothing much behind that so the rear areas are easy targets to cutoff the forward troops from supply & such.
I think your invasion fleet makeup will really help should I try to go into the Kwajalein area as there's Betty's in that area so aircover for all would be a must since I'd have no bases in fighter cover range of the area. The AI as a whole seems to have gone a bit turtle is most places except SE Asia as far as air goes though it does seem to send the occasional nusience raid from Ambon to Darwin to keep my fighters on their toes.
I think your invasion fleet makeup will really help should I try to go into the Kwajalein area as there's Betty's in that area so aircover for all would be a must since I'd have no bases in fighter cover range of the area. The AI as a whole seems to have gone a bit turtle is most places except SE Asia as far as air goes though it does seem to send the occasional nusience raid from Ambon to Darwin to keep my fighters on their toes.
RE: invasion ship composition help
AI has turtled for me too, the problem is that it over extended into SoPac, and I'm hoping to cut off everything it sent to Lae/New Guinea, the Admiralties, and the Solomons.
I've attrited KB pretty well, and he only has 4 or 5 heavies left. If I can get into the Marianas early I could effectively start raiding the main resource lines to Japan by the end of 43/ early 44. I'm going to try to fight as few land battles as necessary - just enough to secure important air and naval bases while making sure I can protect them.
This means: SoPac and SWPac is going into a defensive stances to protect Australia while I make a thrust through CentPac to his jugular. All I need now is enough LBA/LCU to protect the string of bases I build.
Also, as to the lessons learned, I would add 2 things to my list of task forces: AMc's to the Support TF and a Mine Laying TF to drop a defensive minefield once the base is secured.
I've attrited KB pretty well, and he only has 4 or 5 heavies left. If I can get into the Marianas early I could effectively start raiding the main resource lines to Japan by the end of 43/ early 44. I'm going to try to fight as few land battles as necessary - just enough to secure important air and naval bases while making sure I can protect them.
This means: SoPac and SWPac is going into a defensive stances to protect Australia while I make a thrust through CentPac to his jugular. All I need now is enough LBA/LCU to protect the string of bases I build.
Also, as to the lessons learned, I would add 2 things to my list of task forces: AMc's to the Support TF and a Mine Laying TF to drop a defensive minefield once the base is secured.
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: The Gnome
AI has turtled for me too, the problem is that it over extended into SoPac, and I'm hoping to cut off everything it sent to Lae/New Guinea, the Admiralties, and the Solomons.
I've attrited KB pretty well, and he only has 4 or 5 heavies left. If I can get into the Marianas early I could effectively start raiding the main resource lines to Japan by the end of 43/ early 44. I'm going to try to fight as few land battles as necessary - just enough to secure important air and naval bases while making sure I can protect them.
This means: SoPac and SWPac is going into a defensive stances to protect Australia while I make a thrust through CentPac to his jugular. All I need now is enough LBA/LCU to protect the string of bases I build.
Also, as to the lessons learned, I would add 2 things to my list of task forces: AMc's to the Support TF and a Mine Laying TF to drop a defensive minefield once the base is secured.
Be very careful about triggering kamis before you can handle them.
Also, I would be leery of trying the Marianas before you're rich with APAs, AKAs, LSTs, and have extra Marine divisions. And the CD units there are (were?) massive.
The Moose
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Be very careful about triggering kamis before you can handle them.
Also, I would be leery of trying the Marianas before you're rich with APAs, AKAs, LSTs, and have extra Marine divisions. And the CD units there are (were?) massive.
Good advice, I tend to be strategically bi-polar, I spent all of '42 cranking the spring back, now I'm want to let loose. I may have to temper my strategic objects a bit, or at least keep the pace cooler.
What is the best way to determine what is on a base? I see that I can get the relative numbers of troops, the numbers of guns, but is there any way to get anything a little more detailed? Recon in force the only way to go?
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: invasion ship composition help
ORIGINAL: The Gnome
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Be very careful about triggering kamis before you can handle them.
Also, I would be leery of trying the Marianas before you're rich with APAs, AKAs, LSTs, and have extra Marine divisions. And the CD units there are (were?) massive.
Good advice, I tend to be strategically bi-polar, I spent all of '42 cranking the spring back, now I'm want to let loose. I may have to temper my strategic objects a bit, or at least keep the pace cooler.
What is the best way to determine what is on a base? I see that I can get the relative numbers of troops, the numbers of guns, but is there any way to get anything a little more detailed? Recon in force the only way to go?
On the first point, I'm in May 1945, making almost everyday B-29 strikes on the HI. I just took Hong Kong and am slamming supplies in there. (The Chinese can fight well when they have supplies. Their divisions are huge, and can soak up casualties and keep moving.) I'm four hexes from the gates of Singapore. The AI holds nothing, not a flyspeck, east of Iwo Jima except Truk and Marcus I., and neither has any supply. The IJN is almost gone at sea (a few heavies are hiding in port without escorts) except for subs and some Es and PBs, the odd DD, and some few merchants. I've cut off the HI from oil and fuel, 90%. Balikpapan is supplying the theater directly. For the first time in three years fuel is not an issue for the Allies. That alone makes me want to prolong this period.
And yet, the AI keeps fighting. I lost three subs in the last six days near Palembang. Both Pearl and Saipan are packed with damaged ships, the latter just trying to heal them enough for them to limp to Pearl. I've been sending ships with 40 Float and 30 System damage home because I just don't have room at Saipan to work (all but a few have made it using Cruise speed.) Guam has 22 subs with over 30 damage of some kind, mostly Float. The AI has made the three -Jimas (Iwo, etc.) into fortresses, and Betties there are STILL making me swing my convoys far south as they come west. Now they're as often kamis as torpedo bombers, but a kami hit from a Betty can ruin even a large ship. I'm prepping to invade Iwo with three Marine divisions, 12 CVs, and 15 BBs, and I still expect to take pretty heavy kami casualties. The B-29s are flying without P-51Ds (I need Iwo to base them), and are getting 50-60 very modern CAP fighters per raid.
In short, you can never relax. You can't expect the AI to roll over. It isn't as smart as you, but it doesn't make mistakes with buttons and it doesn't get tired or lazy.
On the intel/recon front, you can get some Sigint if you're patient or lucky, but other than that I don't know any way to get exact LCU intel except to attack (Raiders or paras work sometimes at low cost.)
1943 is when it gets interesting for the Allies, and by 1944 you can have fun just knocking the stuffing out of the Japanese. In May 1945 I have a lone B-29 group on Tinian, training at 50% for Atomic Bomb Attack. That will be an interesting day. (The Emperor gets no breaks; Tokyo is going DOWN.)
But the AI still can hurt you all the way to the last day.
The Moose