In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
A suggestion to Matrix
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
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composer99
- Posts: 2931
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix
As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI
Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI
Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.
~ Composer99
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Point 2,3 and 4 are enough. I am designed one of the cyberboard box for Wif and use them. I know the differences but we are somehow fan (even me who have not play for several years now, I will buy it anyway if it is not buggy and have support and continued developpement and is moddable, AI is secondary to all of that... (even tertiary or less may be)). If there is such a release, it should stay confidential until the AI is ready.
BUT someone say the AI is nearly finish. What does this means? If it is so there is no need to worry about (and thanks to all who have post to help steve establish strategy for the AI). Of course if nearly finish is the usual nearly finish, well, I should try cryogenisation to stay alive until it is ready
BUT someone say the AI is nearly finish. What does this means? If it is so there is no need to worry about (and thanks to all who have post to help steve establish strategy for the AI). Of course if nearly finish is the usual nearly finish, well, I should try cryogenisation to stay alive until it is ready
Best regards
Skanvak
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Warspite1ORIGINAL: Skanvak
BUT someone say the AI is nearly finish. What does this means? If it is so there is no need to worry about (and thanks to all who have post to help steve establish strategy for the AI). Of course if nearly finish is the usual nearly finish, well, I should try cryogenisation to stay alive until it is ready
Skanvak please see Steve's post 12. Coming from Steve, this should be considered the official response. The comment about the AI being nearly finished should not have been made.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Stole the words right out of my mouth[&o] as always your words are enlightning[;)] the new me[:@]ORIGINAL: abj9562
In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
Bo
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Buggy, rudimentary, CWIF, yo I bought it and I thought it was pretty decent for a noob like me, of course some people here thing I am buggy and rude---[:D]mentry, hey we all have our faults, honestly Composer I feel its pretty good for a amature lesson which is about all I can handle right now,[:-] looking forward for Steve's version.ORIGINAL: composer99
As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI
Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.
Bo
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Bo you sure make me laugh a lot. Have a great day!ORIGINAL: bo
Stole the words right out of my mouth[&o] as always your words are enlightning[;)] the new me[:@]ORIGINAL: abj9562
In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
Bo
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
For your dining and dancing pleasure these are Steve's last statements concerning the progress of the AI and its importance.. Keep in mind this is a summary of accomplishments for 2009. I put my comments in green so as not to be confused with the report
Artificial Intelligence (AI)
I decided that one way to reduced my task list for creating the AIO is to limit the number of different scenarios that it can play when the game is first released. I’ll do 4 of the 11 scenarios for first release and then add the other 7 as patches in subsequent months. What this removes from my task list is figuring out alternative setups for thousands of units in the 7 scenarios that start late in the war. Each of those scenarios has hundreds, if not thousands, of units on the map at the start of the game. If the AIO always uses the same setup, it becomes too predictable and easy to defeat. But to do a respectable job of designing alternative setups for thousands of units will take time and effort.
The 4 scenarios that will be ready for first release are the ones that will be played the most: the two introductory scenarios (Barbarossa and Guadalcanal) and the Global War scenario (which is virtually the only scenario ever played in over the board games). The fourth scenario is Fascist Tide, which is the European half of the Global War scenario, so it can use the same setups.
I went back over what I had written on the French strategic plan. In 2008 I split the French strategic plan into its component parts for conversion into LAIO scripts. In so doing, I left the rather monolithic first 3 parts untouched. During 2009 I broke out the first two and I rendered them into data files. As a prerequisite, I created the storage structures for those pieces of the strategic plan: vital hexes and regions of conflicts (land, sea, and air).
Peter Skoglund worked throughout the year on setup scripts, first for the minor countries (e.g., Spain and Turkey) and after those were done, for the major powers (e.g., France). For instance, Peter finished up the convoy setups for all the major powers for the Global War scenario. We’re using a sophisticated system to analyze threats from air, sea, and land and since they are employed in so many of the scripts, Peter has developed a library of common functions - written in LAIO (Language for Artificial Intelligence Opponent).
Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts. By pulling them out and placing them in a separate file, they only have to be written (and debugged) once. Then they can be used by any script that needs the same logic. A couple of examples are: (1) determining whether there are any seaborne invasion threats when setting up minor country units, and (2) the same for paradrop threats. These functions are used when setting up the units for almost every country - that is, they are used in over 50 places.
Note that the AIO uses an abstract system rather than a hard coded “this unit goes in this hex”. There is a dual purpose behind using the abstract form: (1) it is easier than trying to hard code all the different combinations and permutations of defenses against the myriad of threats minor countries face when they enter the war, and (2) it is the system that the AIO will use for setting up the major powers. My hope is that eventually the design will be robust enough that the AIO will be able to set up the 7 scenarios that start late in the war without me (or anyone else) having to take the time to figure out which units set up in which hexes.
I wrote the code for the first five steps for the parser and added a new form expressly for testing LAIO scripts. These can be called from the within MWIF and used to monitor how a script is parsed and executed. I devoted many days to creating the data structures for the LAIO parser. As Peter and I worked through various setup scripts, we identified new variable types that we hadn’t thought of previously. Each variable type requires it own data structure. This is not surprising to me and I expect the number of data structures to continue to grow as we write more scripts. I thought about trying to create an exhaustive list, but if I did, more than half of them would never be needed. Therefore, I just add data structures as I come across new variable types.
I created a full directory structure within MWIF just for the AIO files/scripts.
Ian Wilson (PhD in AI) strongly recommended creating an abstract layer to the MWIF geography, so planning and decision making do not have to be done at the hex level. I had expected to do something along those lines but after Ian’s suggestion, and having worked with Peter on setting up units in Spain and France, my ideas kind of jelled. The result is a 4 level breakdown of the world map: (1) global, (2) theater of operations, (3) area of operations, and (4) sea area groups/land regions. These are hierarchical (1 down to 4), mutually exclusive, and exhaustive for all 70,200 hexes.
Patrice started work on the first cut at this and I spent a day or so digging down into the details too. Each geographical component has one or more decision makers assigned by the AI Opponent. Now many of these ‘areas’ will be irrelevant to most, if not all, of the major powers. For example, which major power in MWIF cares about the Southern Ocean or Hudson Bay? And Italy’s interest in the Pacific is comparable to China’s interest in the Atlantic - none whatsoever.
The benefit for the AIO design is that when a decision needs to be made, (e.g., which naval units to include in a moving stack), the AIO has a well defined frame of reference for making that decision. On land, this enables the creation of fall-back positions in Russia and China that include a group of hexes. Another gain is that sea area pipelines will be composed of a series SAGs (Sea Area Groups). Towards this goal, Patrice and I defined a geographical breakdown of Europe, including the adjacent sea areas. This is now ready for use in the AIO scripts.
I realigned the decision making assignments for each decision maker. Mostly this involved splitting a list of tasks into subsets for a hierarchy of decision makers. For example, instead of there being just one naval decision maker (i.e., the Admiralty), there are now 4: Admiralty - global responsibility, Rear Admiral - theater of operations, Fleet Admiral - area of operations, and Naval Group Commander - sea area group.
Continuing the example, the Admiralty decides on convoy pipeline entry and exit points for each theater of operations (TO) and allocates new/unused units to each TO. The Rear Admiral decides on the use of convoys and naval transports within his TO as well as the positioning of naval units to establish a naval presence in individual sea areas. The Fleet Admiral moves convoys with accompanying escorts within his area of operations. He is also responsible for committing units to attack enemy naval assets and deciding to which port(s) naval units return. And at the lowest level, the Naval Group Commander decides all the tactical naval decisions, ranging from shore bombardment through choice of naval combat table.
The key benefit of these changes is that each decision maker has a geographical area of responsibility that aligns perfectly with the geographical breakdown that Patrice, Peter, and I have defined (still incomplete at this point). When making decisions, each decision maker has a smaller search space for choosing the best move.
This is my favorite part.....
Tasks for 2010
Finish MWIF product 1 so I can buy a large screen, flat panel, HD TV.
Since January there has been no mention of any progress with the AI and its development. Unless i missed something in a later report. which is why I assumed that most of the work was done. My bad. I'm still hoping Steve gets his flat panel HD TV soon!! [:)]
Artificial Intelligence (AI)
I decided that one way to reduced my task list for creating the AIO is to limit the number of different scenarios that it can play when the game is first released. I’ll do 4 of the 11 scenarios for first release and then add the other 7 as patches in subsequent months. What this removes from my task list is figuring out alternative setups for thousands of units in the 7 scenarios that start late in the war. Each of those scenarios has hundreds, if not thousands, of units on the map at the start of the game. If the AIO always uses the same setup, it becomes too predictable and easy to defeat. But to do a respectable job of designing alternative setups for thousands of units will take time and effort.
The 4 scenarios that will be ready for first release are the ones that will be played the most: the two introductory scenarios (Barbarossa and Guadalcanal) and the Global War scenario (which is virtually the only scenario ever played in over the board games). The fourth scenario is Fascist Tide, which is the European half of the Global War scenario, so it can use the same setups.
I went back over what I had written on the French strategic plan. In 2008 I split the French strategic plan into its component parts for conversion into LAIO scripts. In so doing, I left the rather monolithic first 3 parts untouched. During 2009 I broke out the first two and I rendered them into data files. As a prerequisite, I created the storage structures for those pieces of the strategic plan: vital hexes and regions of conflicts (land, sea, and air).
Peter Skoglund worked throughout the year on setup scripts, first for the minor countries (e.g., Spain and Turkey) and after those were done, for the major powers (e.g., France). For instance, Peter finished up the convoy setups for all the major powers for the Global War scenario. We’re using a sophisticated system to analyze threats from air, sea, and land and since they are employed in so many of the scripts, Peter has developed a library of common functions - written in LAIO (Language for Artificial Intelligence Opponent).
Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts. By pulling them out and placing them in a separate file, they only have to be written (and debugged) once. Then they can be used by any script that needs the same logic. A couple of examples are: (1) determining whether there are any seaborne invasion threats when setting up minor country units, and (2) the same for paradrop threats. These functions are used when setting up the units for almost every country - that is, they are used in over 50 places.
Note that the AIO uses an abstract system rather than a hard coded “this unit goes in this hex”. There is a dual purpose behind using the abstract form: (1) it is easier than trying to hard code all the different combinations and permutations of defenses against the myriad of threats minor countries face when they enter the war, and (2) it is the system that the AIO will use for setting up the major powers. My hope is that eventually the design will be robust enough that the AIO will be able to set up the 7 scenarios that start late in the war without me (or anyone else) having to take the time to figure out which units set up in which hexes.
I wrote the code for the first five steps for the parser and added a new form expressly for testing LAIO scripts. These can be called from the within MWIF and used to monitor how a script is parsed and executed. I devoted many days to creating the data structures for the LAIO parser. As Peter and I worked through various setup scripts, we identified new variable types that we hadn’t thought of previously. Each variable type requires it own data structure. This is not surprising to me and I expect the number of data structures to continue to grow as we write more scripts. I thought about trying to create an exhaustive list, but if I did, more than half of them would never be needed. Therefore, I just add data structures as I come across new variable types.
I created a full directory structure within MWIF just for the AIO files/scripts.
Ian Wilson (PhD in AI) strongly recommended creating an abstract layer to the MWIF geography, so planning and decision making do not have to be done at the hex level. I had expected to do something along those lines but after Ian’s suggestion, and having worked with Peter on setting up units in Spain and France, my ideas kind of jelled. The result is a 4 level breakdown of the world map: (1) global, (2) theater of operations, (3) area of operations, and (4) sea area groups/land regions. These are hierarchical (1 down to 4), mutually exclusive, and exhaustive for all 70,200 hexes.
Patrice started work on the first cut at this and I spent a day or so digging down into the details too. Each geographical component has one or more decision makers assigned by the AI Opponent. Now many of these ‘areas’ will be irrelevant to most, if not all, of the major powers. For example, which major power in MWIF cares about the Southern Ocean or Hudson Bay? And Italy’s interest in the Pacific is comparable to China’s interest in the Atlantic - none whatsoever.
The benefit for the AIO design is that when a decision needs to be made, (e.g., which naval units to include in a moving stack), the AIO has a well defined frame of reference for making that decision. On land, this enables the creation of fall-back positions in Russia and China that include a group of hexes. Another gain is that sea area pipelines will be composed of a series SAGs (Sea Area Groups). Towards this goal, Patrice and I defined a geographical breakdown of Europe, including the adjacent sea areas. This is now ready for use in the AIO scripts.
I realigned the decision making assignments for each decision maker. Mostly this involved splitting a list of tasks into subsets for a hierarchy of decision makers. For example, instead of there being just one naval decision maker (i.e., the Admiralty), there are now 4: Admiralty - global responsibility, Rear Admiral - theater of operations, Fleet Admiral - area of operations, and Naval Group Commander - sea area group.
Continuing the example, the Admiralty decides on convoy pipeline entry and exit points for each theater of operations (TO) and allocates new/unused units to each TO. The Rear Admiral decides on the use of convoys and naval transports within his TO as well as the positioning of naval units to establish a naval presence in individual sea areas. The Fleet Admiral moves convoys with accompanying escorts within his area of operations. He is also responsible for committing units to attack enemy naval assets and deciding to which port(s) naval units return. And at the lowest level, the Naval Group Commander decides all the tactical naval decisions, ranging from shore bombardment through choice of naval combat table.
The key benefit of these changes is that each decision maker has a geographical area of responsibility that aligns perfectly with the geographical breakdown that Patrice, Peter, and I have defined (still incomplete at this point). When making decisions, each decision maker has a smaller search space for choosing the best move.
This is my favorite part.....
Tasks for 2010
Finish MWIF product 1 so I can buy a large screen, flat panel, HD TV.
Since January there has been no mention of any progress with the AI and its development. Unless i missed something in a later report. which is why I assumed that most of the work was done. My bad. I'm still hoping Steve gets his flat panel HD TV soon!! [:)]
"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
ORIGINAL: abj9562
In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
I would be interested in understanding how you feel this could happen. Why would the reviewers 'hammer' the game when Matrix would clearly point out that there was no AI. Computer War in Europe was not 'hammered' in its reviews just because it did not have an AI as it was clearly stated that it did not have one.
I would agree that if Matrix claimed that there was an AI and in small print stated the AI was another human, then I could see your point, lol.
It should be stressed that NOT having an AI with a game system that accutately reflects WiF AND has the rules and mechinics coded correctly, would be far better than a game whose AI was lacking imho. Then the reviews WOULD have a valid reason to trash the game.
If Matrix only sold 500 copies of MWiF without an AI at $50 (as I stated before I would buy it) that is $25K that Matrix does not have now.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
ORIGINAL: abj9562
In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
I would be interested in understanding how you feel this could happen. Why would the reviewers 'hammer' the game when Matrix would clearly point out that there was no AI. Computer War in Europe was not 'hammered' in its reviews just because it did not have an AI as it was clearly stated that it did not have one.
I would agree that if Matrix claimed that there was an AI and in small print stated the AI was another human, then I could see your point, lol.
It should be stressed that NOT having an AI with a game system that accutately reflects WiF AND has the rules and mechinics coded correctly, would be far better than a game whose AI was lacking imho. Then the reviews WOULD have a valid reason to trash the game.
If Matrix only sold 500 copies of MWiF without an AI at $50 (as I stated before I would buy it) that is $25K that Matrix does not have now.
Matrix and Steve have already stated publicly and in published interviews that an AI will be part of the game. In my experience the industry does not relate well when features are removed from a game to get it released. This is specifically pointed out in most reviews when it occurs. General reaction comes in the form of statements similar to, "They hurried it out the door.", "It wasn't really finished.", etc.... It is one thing to build a game without an AI and quite another to drop a specific design feature. Heck the discussion right here points out that there are already two opposing viewpoints. This type of discussion played out by reviewers can bring nothing good to the table.
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Agreed, The last time a survey was done on the subject of the importance of the AI. overwhelmingly the majority of gamers wanted an AI, A really good AI. I know for a fact I will not play a game for long if it lacks an AI. I can see Numdydar's point about getting it out but this would likely disillusion the majority of folks that want this game. So we all get to wait.
"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).
Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.
The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff [:)]
Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.
The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff [:)]
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
I need to point out that this project is not CWiF it is MWiF. ADG clearly states on their website that MWiF is a new game based on the code from CWiF. This is the same as having a Game v1.0 and 5 years later Game v2.0. Therefore, let me reiterate MWiF has never been stopped or restarted. I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.ORIGINAL: Numdydar
From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).
Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.
The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff [:)]
I do agree with your statement that reaction to releasing a game with or without an AI is pure speculation at best. Without specific metrics to back up statements, mine included it is not possible to truly know. I would suggest people familiarize themselves with who has beta access and who does not. You will find the beta team can not discuss specifics but we can have opinion based on a bit more fact than speculation. Although we do make mistakes at times we will clearly retract and correct our statements. However Steve usually beats us to that.
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
I don't think anyone in their right mind could ever say MWIF was "rushed out the door." With or without AI.
And, to be perfectly honest, the AI will not be a challenge for anyone but an absolute beginner anyway. It will perform the function of a tutorial assistant in reality. So, that means the other forms of playing the game will be more important and should receive proportionately more attention. The game should not be delayed to develope an AI. That should be an add on for a separate price a couple years after the initial release. ($75.00 for the initial release and $50-75.00 for the AI a couple years later.) I know this is expensive, but look at the reality of the development in terms of effort and time. And, with two solid years of work, the AI just might be excellent. It is worth the cost in my opinion and provides a nod to reality.
I fully support Steve and appreciate all his hard work. I also tip my hat to all of those who have chipped in and helped out so far. Keep up the good work. It is a labor of love.
And, to be perfectly honest, the AI will not be a challenge for anyone but an absolute beginner anyway. It will perform the function of a tutorial assistant in reality. So, that means the other forms of playing the game will be more important and should receive proportionately more attention. The game should not be delayed to develope an AI. That should be an add on for a separate price a couple years after the initial release. ($75.00 for the initial release and $50-75.00 for the AI a couple years later.) I know this is expensive, but look at the reality of the development in terms of effort and time. And, with two solid years of work, the AI just might be excellent. It is worth the cost in my opinion and provides a nod to reality.
I fully support Steve and appreciate all his hard work. I also tip my hat to all of those who have chipped in and helped out so far. Keep up the good work. It is a labor of love.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
The real problem Abj is that I meant it[&o]ORIGINAL: abj9562
Bo you sure make me laugh a lot. Have a great day!ORIGINAL: bo
Stole the words right out of my mouth[&o] as always your words are enlightning[;)] the new me[:@]ORIGINAL: abj9562
In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.
Bo
Bo
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Good lord Abj now your getting sickening Your going to drive me back to the other Bo[:@] remember him [:D] and you would not want that now would you, keep going I think Numdydar is ready to collapse and surrender to your infinite wisdom[;)]ORIGINAL: abj9562
I need to point out that this project is not CWiF it is MWiF. ADG clearly states on their website that MWiF is a new game based on the code from CWiF. This is the same as having a Game v1.0 and 5 years later Game v2.0. Therefore, let me reiterate MWiF has never been stopped or restarted. I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.ORIGINAL: Numdydar
From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).
Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.
The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff [:)]
I do agree with your statement that reaction to releasing a game with or without an AI is pure speculation at best. Without specific metrics to back up statements, mine included it is not possible to truly know. I would suggest people familiarize themselves with who has beta access and who does not. You will find the beta team can not discuss specifics but we can have opinion based on a bit more fact than speculation. Although we do make mistakes at times we will clearly retract and correct our statements. However Steve usually beats us to that.
Bo
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paulderynck
- Posts: 8487
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
My opinion is that there is a lot of merit in your suggestion. I would buy it without an AI.ORIGINAL: Numdydar
From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).
Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.
The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff [:)]
Paul
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Joseignacio
- Posts: 3036
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.
In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view [:)])
You can be sure people would not buy it. Mainly because there are alternatives for free in the Web.
However, I have some friends who are WIF players, and myself, and we don't even go to such websites. If we need to play without AI, better do it at home with dice and counters.
To buy a game just for the graphics is for no-brains. That's the shi-t many of the supposed "strategy" games developers have been trying to sell us for years (a real scam). "O, look at this wonderful strategy game, it has wonderful colours, and marvellous sprites, the visual art is historically accurate as well as fancyful..!" unfortunately the AI is completely dumb...'
As for the business world and the cash flows, I cannot say but that selling unended products like Paradox and Ageod use to do, and up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts.
I can appreciate that the AI scripting may be "almost done". But as was stated previously, the game mechanics must be finalized and remaining bugs resolved before fully exercising the AI and verifying it works. I have not seen any mention of AI-vs-AI gameplay, which would be necessary for quickly completing many campaign games and analyzing AI behaviors. Trying to do this manually could take months or years. Perhaps this is already in progress and some fine-tuning has been made? This would be encouraging news.
As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI... This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons.
I agree there's no point arguing about business decisions that have already been made and are proceeding. Decision Games made their business decision to release computer wargames such as WIE without AI, fine. So what? Matrix Games has broader priorities and that's fine too.
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
RE: A suggestion to Matrix
to Bo
While I completely disagree about releasing the game without an AI from Numdydar. He makes a valid point that we are all speculating. However some of us speculate with extensive experience and knowledge of the computer industry. Others speculate from their beta team knowledge of MWiF. Some peculate with a background from both of the former items. Still, others are just making wild guesses. I do not know anybody's background and do not want to place them in any of these categories (except we know the beta team). However I feel confident in my knowledge, background, experience, and beta access.
While I completely disagree about releasing the game without an AI from Numdydar. He makes a valid point that we are all speculating. However some of us speculate with extensive experience and knowledge of the computer industry. Others speculate from their beta team knowledge of MWiF. Some peculate with a background from both of the former items. Still, others are just making wild guesses. I do not know anybody's background and do not want to place them in any of these categories (except we know the beta team). However I feel confident in my knowledge, background, experience, and beta access.
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.