Major concern: Armor

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

if you change sides do you get the same result?

-

Yes. The last save that I posted is a very good one, try it. It shows a situation where tanks are nearly invulnerable but achieve nothing. The M5 thing: you can easily replicate it yourself.

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: Panther Paul

Hey, can I have my Tiger Coy back [;)]

In one scenario I sent my Tiger Coy forward agains the US 106th Div. They swept all before them, then the sun set. Ran head on into several Ing Co'y backed by AT. It was a short sharp fight and my poor Tigers were left as flaming wrecks!

Maybe I'm just unlucky [8|]

I agree that there is something strange. See my last save: these problems with vehicles are not the NORM, but THEY HAPPEN, and frequently. The AT Coy thing in my last save can ruin a game. Issues with vehicles are much more evident because they (vehicles) are discrete and less, and because their value in reality changed drastically with many factors: presence of infantry, enemy fatigue and morale, restricted terrain etc etc.

To be clear: my biggest concern is about having very little losses in tanks, especially when the enemy has no tanks/tank destroyers, and secondary that they seem to lack punch against infantry, even in open terrain.

I had some armors wrecked in D3, aggro max, fatigue max, but again: 2 full days at Elsenborn Ridge using them as spearhead with no losses at all... it's strange, and not historical. It's not just luck, I think you can agree about this.

I appreciate your will to hear players, thank you.

[wodin]

I think Panther Paul was pointing out something that worked...not something that didn't...as what he says sounds about right to me.

Still Capt don't fret it will be sorted. Just keep sending in your save's with the peobelms encountered....thats better than reproting them hear because they will get overlooked plus you will be prob repeating yourself alot. The quicker it all gets resolved the better for everyone.

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think Panther Paul was pointing out something that worked...not something that didn't...as what he says sounds about right to me.

Still Capt don't fret it will be sorted. Just keep sending in your save's with the peobelms encountered....thats better than reproting them hear because they will get overlooked plus you will be prob repeating yourself alot. The quicker it all gets resolved the better for everyone.

Please, don't go off topic, and please stop replying to all my posts defending the developers and the game, they don't need it I think. Can we speak about armors and their simulation in the game in this thread?

I hope that other players will give more contributions to help developers analyzing the potential issue; then, if developers will say that the game is good and realistic as is, I will live with it, no problem.

Peace

[wodin]

I really didn't feel I was changing the subject, you quoted Panther Paul out of context and I was jsut pointing that out to you...sorry for speaking...also I feel you posting in that particular price thread about the game not being worth the money highly inflamable...your giving certain characters on here who really are winding people up ammunition..you can have your opinion fine, any other thread would be fine to...but to post in that one is just causing trouble thats been going on to long...so yes I'm probably abit sensitive....whoops I just chnged the subject...I shall only post relevant posts to your subject from now on Sir! Also as I have nothing further to say on armour as you seem to be covering it enough I will vacate your thread.

Sorry for speaking....thats me told...just trying to help[;)]

Just thought about it...I'm really fed up with it all now...I'm out of here...really am fed up with the forum

[henri51]

I had a case where I sent 3 Tiger companies into urban terrain without infantry support, and two of them were wiped out. That seemed quite reasonable to me.

Henri

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: henri51

I had a case where I sent 3 Tiger companies into urban terrain without infantry support, and two of them were wiped out. That seemed quite reasonable to me.

Henri

Interesting; just some questions:
- the tigers were stationary? or they were moving?
- what kind of oppositions was present? Infantry with AT close range weapons? Other?
- the Tigers were able to cause losses to the defenders in a realistic way?

Thank you

[Knavery]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I really didn't feel I was changing the subject, you quoted Panther Paul out of context and I was jsut pointing that out to you...sorry for speaking...also I feel you posting in that particular price thread about the game not being worth the money highly inflamable...your giving certain characters on here who really are winding people up ammunition..you can have your opinion fine, any other thread would be fine to...but to post in that one is just causing trouble thats been going on to long...so yes I'm probably abit sensitive....whoops I just chnged the subject...I shall only post relevant posts to your subject from now on Sir! Also as I have nothing further to say on armour as you seem to be covering it enough I will vacate your thread.

Sorry for speaking....thats me told...just trying to help[;)]

Just thought about it...I'm really fed up with it all now...I'm out of here...really am fed up with the forum

Hey Wodin,
I don't see anything wrong with what CptWasp is saying here. He's provding examples as a veteran what he's finding wrong with the game. But you keep telling everyone to chill out, and that the developers will fix the game. I don't understand that logic at all. You were one of the folks replying in the price thread before you purchased it, so I'm not sure why all of a sudden you're being all hush-hush about the issues. That's completely backwards and illogical.

I know the game is good, but we paid a lot of coin for it. We have the right to speak our mind about the issues without getting flack from other forum members, or the developers making up excuse that it's supposed to happen that way.

Personally, I haven't had time to play it. But you can be sure I'll be in here bringing up issues I encounter again and again until their acknowledged by the development team and tracked for resolution. To do anything but that is throwing your money away don't you think? CptWasp is not slamming the developer, which is what you seem to think. He's bringing up a legitimate issue that he's encountering.

Wodin, I'm glad you like the game. I'm actually glad to hear anyone say they like the game. That makes me feel that I purchased a good product. But at the same time I want people to bring up these issues so that their fixed, so that my purchase doesn't become less and less valuable to me.

I'm not sure why you're getting sick of the forum. You've posted your opinion quite a bit in here as well as everyone else. It's your right and it's theirs as well.

[NewBobolix]

ORIGINAL: Knavery
Hey Wodin,
I don't see anything wrong with what CptWasp is saying here. He's provding examples as a veteran what he's finding wrong with the game. But you keep telling everyone to chill out, and that the developers will fix the game. I don't understand that logic at all. You were one of the folks replying in the price thread before you purchased it, so I'm not sure why all of a sudden you're being all hush-hush about the issues. That's completely backwards and illogical.

I know the game is good, but we paid a lot of coin for it. We have the right to speak our mind about the issues without getting flack from other forum members, or the developers making up excuse that it's supposed to happen that way.

Personally, I haven't had time to play it. But you can be sure I'll be in here bringing up issues I encounter again and again until their acknowledged by the development team and tracked for resolution. To do anything but that is throwing your money away don't you think? CptWasp is not slamming the developer, which is what you seem to think. He's bringing up a legitimate issue that he's encountering.

Wodin, I'm glad you like the game. I'm actually glad to hear anyone say they like the game. That makes me feel that I purchased a good product. But at the same time I want people to bring up these issues so that their fixed, so that my purchase doesn't become less and less valuable to me.

I'm not sure why you're getting sick of the forum. You've posted your opinion quite a bit in here as well as everyone else. It's your right and it's theirs as well.

+1

also never forget that we are italian and maybe sometimes our english is not as perfect as your...
we may misunderstand something translating from english and/or not be able to fully and correctly explain something else, especially on different interpretations

SAVES fortunately speak for themselves and help out the producers fine tuning an already good product

[;)]

[Topo]

ORIGINAL: NewBobolix

ORIGINAL: Knavery
Hey Wodin,
I don't see anything wrong with what CptWasp is saying here. He's provding examples as a veteran what he's finding wrong with the game. But you keep telling everyone to chill out, and that the developers will fix the game. I don't understand that logic at all. You were one of the folks replying in the price thread before you purchased it, so I'm not sure why all of a sudden you're being all hush-hush about the issues. That's completely backwards and illogical.

I know the game is good, but we paid a lot of coin for it. We have the right to speak our mind about the issues without getting flack from other forum members, or the developers making up excuse that it's supposed to happen that way.

Personally, I haven't had time to play it. But you can be sure I'll be in here bringing up issues I encounter again and again until their acknowledged by the development team and tracked for resolution. To do anything but that is throwing your money away don't you think? CptWasp is not slamming the developer, which is what you seem to think. He's bringing up a legitimate issue that he's encountering.

Wodin, I'm glad you like the game. I'm actually glad to hear anyone say they like the game. That makes me feel that I purchased a good product. But at the same time I want people to bring up these issues so that their fixed, so that my purchase doesn't become less and less valuable to me.

I'm not sure why you're getting sick of the forum. You've posted your opinion quite a bit in here as well as everyone else. It's your right and it's theirs as well.

+1

also never forget that we are italian and maybe sometimes our english is not as perfect as your...
we may misunderstand something translating from english and/or not be able to fully and correctly explain something else, especially on different interpretations

SAVES fortunately speak for themselves and help out the producers fine tuning an already good product

[;)]

+2

This is a great game, but there are some problems, and report them is the best thing we can do.

sorry for my english...

[Obsolete]

Many tanks in WW2 fell prey to improvised AT weapons like the molotov cocktail especially in urban or built up areas.

I'd say.  I'm not sure why nobody mentioned this, but didn't the Finns absolutely RAPE and BUTCHER up massive amounts of Russian tanks pretty bad during a winter with this technique?  I believe as far as tanks go for Russian history, that was one of her darkest hours, comparable to the loss of the Spanish Armada.

[Henri]

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

ORIGINAL: henri51

I had a case where I sent 3 Tiger companies into urban terrain without infantry support, and two of them were wiped out. That seemed quite reasonable to me.

Henri

Interesting; just some questions:
- the tigers were stationary? or they were moving?
- what kind of oppositions was present? Infantry with AT close range weapons? Other?
- the Tigers were able to cause losses to the defenders in a realistic way?

Thank you

*Gulp*

Well, this is a BIG scenario (involving a Corps on each side), and the Tigers were sent into a firefight where at least a couple of battalions on each side were involved (my own troops were very tired units from KG Peiper who had run up the map to support the paratroopers holding on by their fingernails to the Huy bridge). To make a long story short, I simply noticed that the Tigers were gone at one point (screen message), so I don't know if they were still moving or not, but they had reached approximately their final attack point.I had sent them across the bridge to screen the right flank in urban terrain against the oncoming enemy infantry while most of the rest of KG Peiper tried to break through Northward from the bridge.

As for the opposition, at that point it was an oncoming US infantry division, so no doubt they were equipped with AT weapons, but I didn't check out their ES&T. You can if you open the "Peiper crosses the Meuse" scenario.

As for losses, having two divisions whacking at each other is too much for my ability to track losses, and I don't see how I could do that even if I wanted to, so I have no idea if they caused any US losses or not.As far as I know, they could have died from air attacks, but I doubt it as all of mine were cancelled due to weather.

Henri

[Arimus]

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Many tanks in WW2 fell prey to improvised AT weapons like the molotov cocktail especially in urban or built up areas.

I'd say.  I'm not sure why nobody mentioned this, but didn't the Finns absolutely RAPE and BUTCHER up massive amounts of Russian tanks pretty bad during a winter with this technique?  I believe as far as tanks go for Russian history, that was one of her darkest hours, comparable to the loss of the Spanish Armada.

I believe most were captured intact.
They used MC's because that's all they had. I don't believe the Americans and the Germans specialized in close assault on tanks they way Russians did. They had better (and safer!) ways of killing tanks and only resorted to special AT devices when pressed.

[daft]

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Many tanks in WW2 fell prey to improvised AT weapons like the molotov cocktail especially in urban or built up areas.

I'd say.  I'm not sure why nobody mentioned this, but didn't the Finns absolutely RAPE and BUTCHER up massive amounts of Russian tanks pretty bad during a winter with this technique?  I believe as far as tanks go for Russian history, that was one of her darkest hours, comparable to the loss of the Spanish Armada.

I'm not sure that "butcher" and "rape" is a very good description of Soviet tank losses to Molotov Cocktails during the Winter War, but they were used to some effect. One reason was that the Russians used petrol driven tanks, which burned more readily if hit in the engine compartment with an MC. In the later Continuation War, newer tank models rendered the MCs much less effective, and I would imagine that the same can be said for the Western Front, especially during the Bulge time period.

[wodin]

Christ almighty.....I'm not saying not to post the problems the game has....why would I say that?....what I object to is being told what I can post and also being told I was going OFF TOPIC when I wasn't....had to post to stick up for myself with all the +1 shit going on...oh I forgot lets bow down to a veteran of the game...give it a rest...there are many veterans of the game here including me...

Tell you what my input has finished....whats the point of going around the net raving about a game for years just to get shit when it comes out...I'm trying to be positive here...I have posted about the problems aswell....just a certain person threw a bone to certain people on here and I find that a little odd...and then backtracked...wasn't worth the money but not ripped off...hmmmmm

Laters...

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Christ almighty.....I'm not saying not to post the problems the game has....why would I say that?....what I object to is being told what I can post and also being told I was going OFF TOPIC when I wasn't....had to post to stick up for myself with all the +1 shit going on...oh I forgot lets bow down to a veteran of the game...give it a rest...there are many veterans of the game here including me...

Tell you what my input has finished....whats the point of going around the net raving about a game for years just to get shit when it comes out...I'm trying to be positive here...I have posted about the problems aswell....just a certain person threw a bone to certain people on here and I find that a little odd...and then backtracked...wasn't worth the money but not ripped off...hmmmmm

Laters...

Laters?

Wodin, you're beginning to sound like a total head-case. First, you come unglued about whether or not you ought to buy the game. No BS, at that point I didn't know whether to hand you my MC or a skull, it was that rife with slings and arrows. Then you go over to GD and post these little numbers:

tm.asp?m=2481848

tm.asp?m=2478860

No one is hatin' on critics of the game, Wodin, nobody. The most polite contributors to the forum have been the guys who enjoy the game. Conversely, I've read all sort of nutzoid comments from the 'aginners, stuff like "I drive a ***, so don't buy the game," and, essentially, "anyone who disagrees with my right to pitch a fit over a discretionary purchase of an entertainment product is a forum NAZEE."

Well, jeez, Wodin, where do we go from here? Are your sensibilities the only ones that matter here? Laters? I just want to know what WTF you're talking about, slings and arrows, notwithstanding.[8|]

[Arjuna]

Can everyone please calm down. Take a deep breath. Focus on the game and not on each other. This is supposed to be entertainment remember! [:)]

[jomni]

I don't even understand how it ended up this way.
 

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: Henri

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

ORIGINAL: henri51

I had a case where I sent 3 Tiger companies into urban terrain without infantry support, and two of them were wiped out. That seemed quite reasonable to me.

Henri

Interesting; just some questions:
- the tigers were stationary? or they were moving?
- what kind of oppositions was present? Infantry with AT close range weapons? Other?
- the Tigers were able to cause losses to the defenders in a realistic way?

Thank you

*Gulp*

Well, this is a BIG scenario (involving a Corps on each side), and the Tigers were sent into a firefight where at least a couple of battalions on each side were involved (my own troops were very tired units from KG Peiper who had run up the map to support the paratroopers holding on by their fingernails to the Huy bridge). To make a long story short, I simply noticed that the Tigers were gone at one point (screen message), so I don't know if they were still moving or not, but they had reached approximately their final attack point.I had sent them across the bridge to screen the right flank in urban terrain against the oncoming enemy infantry while most of the rest of KG Peiper tried to break through Northward from the bridge.

As for the opposition, at that point it was an oncoming US infantry division, so no doubt they were equipped with AT weapons, but I didn't check out their ES&T. You can if you open the "Peiper crosses the Meuse" scenario.

As for losses, having two divisions whacking at each other is too much for my ability to track losses, and I don't see how I could do that even if I wanted to, so I have no idea if they caused any US losses or not.As far as I know, they could have died from air attacks, but I doubt it as all of mine were cancelled due to weather.

Henri

I'm still focusing on armors ))

Thank you Arjuna

Henri: I think that only in a small battle, involving few units and without air support you can test armor vulnerability.

I have found that armors ASSAULTING are "less" invulnerable (but IMHO still too tough and too weak at the same time); but those armors driving their way through infantry seem sometime really invulnerable, nearly "invisible" to the enemy.

See my save with a Panther company going through 150 enemies: it seems they simply go through. But the interface reports they are assaulting. They go across a stream and on the other side, then they continue their march: but the move order had the "attacks" crossed and aggro on max, so this is very strange.

I like the Ardennes fighting, maybe it's the second more interesting fight to me (after Market Garden). It's evident that it stresses armor realism very much. In my accounts there are continuous references to tank and vehicle losses, so arriving at D3 with all my tanks alive is strange enough. I was not conservative with them, I decided to change history and to use Kampfgruppe Peiper as a sperhead in Losaimergraben, ignoring Bucholz Station initially. And I used a Panther company to clear away some 14 M4 in Hunningen, I destroyed them with no losses even in close range fighting (where the M4 75mm cannon was adequate and a rear or flank hit more probable).

About Molotovs: I think that a not modelled weapon that was used more extensively in restricted terrain was the AT mine and stachel charges. Notice that the comoabt involved many engeener units, normally well provided with mines and stachell charges. Both were VERY effective. An immobilized tank is lost for combat purpose, and normally the crew leaves it in a hurry.

[koontz]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Can everyone please calm down. Take a deep breath. Focus on the game and not on each other. This is supposed to be entertainment remember! [:)]

This comes in handy, [:D]

"war is entertainment for those who haven't experienced it".
[:'(]

sry for OT