An Open Letter To Joel

[Richard III]

Rambling Eastern Front Thoughts and A Recommendation.

The Background.

I`ve played board & computer war games for almost 30 years and I`ve always been amazed by how Strategic and Operational level Eastern Front games have avoided including the fact that the Theatre, Army , Corps and even Divisional commanders were often forced to act on the orders of a lunatic in Berlin who controlled the armed forces of the nation.

The disasterous consequences, on both the strategic and operational levels of the ex corporals meddling in day to day operations are widely documented, yet AFAIK no war-game has incorporated that in the Game design....this is so devoid of reality it boggles the mind, and a sad relection of what`s gone before.

On the other side of the hill we have the Soviet state ruled by a peasant, who is also a homicidal manic who purged almost 10,000 regular officers on the eve of war, was the final arbiter on all operational plans and placed political officers ( commissars ), with no military experience, down to the Rgt. level in the whole of the Red Army. These political officers often enforced military decisions on the local level that had no basis in reality, with dreadful losses. This also has yet to be reflected in any game design.

If you can step from the average gamers fixation with OOB`s and hardware and leaders abilities and Panzer Spearheads and what if`s, you can see the Eastern Front as some kind of a hideous Theatre of the Grotesque, with no relationship to the Western Front, the Middle East or the Pacific other then people trying to kill each other in vast numbers.

No wonder the business dragged on for years due to the constant meddling by the madmen who ruled each side. The gods must have truly enjoyed this one.

The Recommendation.

Please, introduce some _forced random events_ into the Game that reflect the above.

You and I understand that we gamers are obsessed with complete, unobstructed control of our Armies, but not only is that a-historical, but fairly quickly will be boring and reduce re-playability as gamers dope out the optimal winning process.

Introducing Random Events, beyond the historical transfers of German units to the West, creates " decision points" for the player, and that adds interest. It cannot be that hard from a programming viewpoint, although I`ll grant it will increase play testing time.

Thanks for your consideration.

RL

[janh]

I second this. This would make for a lot of extra complexity, fun, longevity of the game. It would be nice if "historic events" wouldn't perfectly follow timetables either, say D-Day +/- 6 months -- something to make it less predictable at least if you guys don't want to consider bringing back the old Western/Italian Front concept, and player controlled unit transfers. Also, make the air war over Germany, i.e. the production numbers, more variable.

[Flaviusx]

I like the idea in principle but feel this can wait until after release of the game and be done in a patch. My primary concern at this point is getting the core of the game finished and the product pushed out ASAP, and not get bogged down in chrome.
 
 
 
 

[Rasputitsa]

No objection to making this an optional feature, but I would be surprised if the developers were looking for anything else to do. We know what happened with the lunatic leaders in charge and there is little point in repeating it, the value of these games for me, is to find out what could be done without Hitler and Stalin.

'Western Front' produced by GG in the '80s had such political control for the German side, which destroyed any play value, as there was very little that you could do. If such events were added I would want to turn them off. [:)]

[Wild]

I agree with Rasputitsa. If these event are included i would want them to be optional. When i play the Germans in any wargame, i like to pretend that Hitler was assassinated and a competent command structure is in place. I want to try to get the most out of the german army.
While not conforming to reality i get the most enjoyment from fine tuning my army to it's max potential. It is a game after all.

[wyrmmy]

Unfortunately Wild, Hitlers assasination would have led to a German call for an armistace within minutes. [X(]

[Wild]

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

Unfortunately Wild, Hitlers assasination would have led to a German call for an armistace within minutes. [X(]

Perhaps you didn't read the part about me saying that this is a game.

[wworld7]

No Hitler = War ended = game over!!!

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

No Hitler = War ended = game over!!!

Not necessarily, what if Hitler had realised, as Stalin did, that he had better leave the fighting to the generals at an early stage in the War, while Germany was still powerful. Who knows what might have happened. There were peace overtures when defeat became obvious, but what would the generals have done when the War could still have ended in victory. Temptation to go for the win rather than messy and possibily humiliating talks, they had been this route at Versailles.

Have events, what-ifs (Britain negotiates, USA stays neutral, Finland stays neutral, Ukrainian independence, Japan invades etc.), but not game breakers

However, all I want is a good game, not sitting and waiting for the event that will turn it all into a waste of time and effort. Who wants to read a book when you already know the ending. [:)]

[wworld7]

I like games that are reasonably realistic, which is what I hope WITE will be.

I don't enjoy nearly as much historical fantasy "what ifs". You kill off Churchill and maybe England sues for peace, (I don't see Canada, Australia or India agreeing to this) but at some point the U.S. is entering the war (either because of Germany or Japan) and that is the ballgame sooner or later. Or worse case Russia will fight and defeat Germany and "free" Europe (which is an ugly thought if they get to England before the US/Common Wealth forces get there).

[Josh]

An interesting point of view Richard, and I can understand it, and it has been discussed before because of obvious reasons; why incorporate all the things that were in the war (except concentration camps) but not the sometimes erratic behaviour of tyrants?
Well the one reason it won't be incorporated in the game is: frustration of players. If there's one thing gamers avoid like the plague it's things that frustrate them.
Besides, what kind of things would become "Führer Befehl"? The same decisions that were taken in the actual war, or new random decisions?

So as much as I understand your opinion on this, I doubt very much it will make it into the first release.
OTOH, it certainly would make it more interesting for a select few if it were made an optional gameplay element.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

Unfortunately Wild, Hitlers assasination would have led to a German call for an armistace within minutes. [X(]

The question to be answered for people like Wild and me is: what if not? What if Hitler had not taken over OKW, and OKH had been lead by competent command from the start of the campaign?

What if Speer had taken over economy in 1941 and sped up production lines as he did two years later? What if the player succeeds in crushing Russian air better than historically and moved the majority of his fighters to protect the Reich in 1942-3? Would production have increased further? Would the invasion in France have been delayed with German fighters contesting the western air space? How would that in turn have affected troops transfers from and to the East? Many what-if questions that I liked the old WiR so much for that I still today play it regularly.

I would hope that the developers bring some of these features, if not all, back in some later patches. Even if only optional for the player. The more "scripted" this game is (withdrawals, production etc), the more disconnected the fight in the East becomes from these "ongoings", and that despite this huge complexity and degree of detail that the developers put into the game would make it seem "strange". Think about Pyledrivers example, conquering Moscow and an elite SS Division is taken out of line in 42! Not realistic, even for Hitler and Keitel. In think the developers have come up with something in core extremely great, that could set standards for the next decade of war gaming. But somehow I can't avoid the impression that they build a Ferrari, but planned only to put wooden chairs inside -- the "extras" seem somehow minimalized...

[janh]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
No Hitler = War ended = game over!!!

I find that a very short-sighted opinion. I could as well state:
Hitler = War will always be lost = game over!!! why bother to play if you know how it ends?
historic production & withdrawls = War will always be lost = game over!!! why bother to play if you know how it ends?
etc.

This is a game, and as such should by nature not just reenact the German defeat East. I assume after a while this would become very boring for many players. Just as a hint: I guess the similarly ambitious WITP and WITP:AE have been comparably successful because you have many options of getting a shot as Japanese player to win the war: home island economy, oil, convoys, weapons research/development changes, ways to affect and change ship production schedules (not "fixed arrivals") etc. I would bet without that a lot less sales would have been made for a program that is well in excess of a $30-40 casual game.

[elmo3]

Random events have been discussed here in the past.  There are none now and AFAIK there are no plans to include any.

[ComradeP]

WitP/WitP:AE has the problem that the rigid, inflexible economy of Japan can be player controlled and optimised whilst the flexible, economic powerhouse of the US will always create X amount of planes, ships and LCU's.

That isn't remotely historical, but it makes the game more challenging it seems, even though many outcomes of AAR'ed PBEMs border on the fantastical.

If Hitler/Stalin decisions were to be included, they'd have to be random. Say, if a formation is attacked, Hitler or Stalin forbids the formation to retreat, which means the frontline units have to remain in place. Historical withdrawals are problematic, so including a randomization feature where withdrawals can happen either a few weeks before or after the historical withdrawal would be nice. At the start of Barbarossa, Hitler had not yet lost his sanity and was not trying to interfere with everything. On the other hand, it would be difficult to imagine a start of Barbarossa where Stalin doesn't more or less panic. Just like many feautures of WitP/WitP:AE, both sides suffer from the same problems but also have the same advantages to a certain extent. The Soviet player will be able to stage an infinitely more credible defensive operation in 1941 than his historical
counterparts and the late war Axis player will still be able to call the shots over the actions of his troops, with no Hitler to tell him what to do.

Of course, such games are by definition ahistorical as the player can open the reinforcement screen and know precisely what will appear, where it will appear and when it will appear in 1941-1945 (or if the reinforcement screen only covers a number of weeks, the player can always check the editor for arrival/withdrawal dates).

There is, of course, the possibility that players pretend that they are Hitler or Stalin when it comes to the decisions they're making (instead of OKW/OKH and STAVKA), as they have supreme control.

[Cavalry Corp]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

No Hitler = War ended = game over!!!

No Hitler = Maybe a mainland of Europe totally taken by the Soviets as the Western Powers would never have stood in the way, Germany knew they were the only ones who could take them on, we Brits were safeish on our Island and had Empire. In 42 or so Russia would probably have attacked anyway.

No Stalin on 22/6 /41 = End of Russia

Result = They dashed each other to bits in reality , Stalin then saw how feeble our breakout of Normandy was ( compared to Bagration ) and saw we were weaker than he realised and wanted the war over with no more loss of life, he would have taken France if he could , everything . While he was pondering his chances , the USA used the A bomb not just to win against Japan but show Stalin they had it and he did not...= Europe saved from the red butcher.

Did the Russians then go back to prewar borders or free Poland which is why we got involved at all , no chance ...Would Patton have driven him out without an A bomb , I doubt it.

My 2c
Cav

[Capt Cliff]

*coughs* ... I have brought this up a number of times in different threads. The lack of Hitler's and Stalin's interference makes this game a BIG "WHAT IF" game!! Right now WintE is NOT a historical simulation only a giant fantasy game where the German now has a chance of winning. Interference by these dictator's is a must for an actuate historical simulation of the war on the eastern front during WWII. This maybe a show stopper as far as me buying the game. I am a historical wargamer ... if I want to play fantasy games I'll play Fallout 3 or Neverwinter Nights.

[PyleDriver]

Your not a wargamer...lol...Every wargame is a fantasy, otherwise it would turn out the same as it historicaly did everytime...Boy what fun that would be...Pay it twice and put it on the shelve...

[wodin]

Grand Strategy games can have events as it fits the overall scope of the game...this game is more concentrated on the battlefield and you can either be the German military war machine of the Russian....it's in your hands...your given all the big boys toys of the Germans or the Russians, now lets see what you can do with them. Thats how I view it anyway...once you start having to deal with restrictive events it no longer becomes your strategy...but Herr Event Hitlers or Uncle Event Stalins....might aswell watch the game play out historically on its own...

Thats my personnal feelings anyway...

[janh]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver
Your not a wargamer...lol...Every wargame is a fantasy, otherwise it would turn out the same as it historicaly did everytime...Boy what fun that would be...Pay it twice and put it on the shelve...

I completely agree. If it were that calculable, I'd queue the job on the cluster and collect the result of the game next evening.
Any fascination from a game derives from possibilities to explore, options, i.e. the ability to change the outcome. There'd be little purpose other than research to replay something that is such closely modeling history that the outcome ends up being the same. If games offer so little possibilities, and outcomes become predictable, they fail (and usually also commercially so). Or, if they claim to be too realistic, but fail in the basics badly. The art is probably to strike a compromise: say mimik the fighting and supply rules, the production and the need for forces West and South, but allow the player to deviate from the historic patterns to give him the chance of influencing the outcome.

Thus, no big events should be messing around within the games, but it would be nice to have some events, historical announcements popping up, a newspaper screen, a newsreel or Wochenschau clip showing say D-Day unfold and then a message from OKW popping up "to ready 6 divisions from AGN with a total CV of xxx to move West within 1 week." Then the player marks them, and off they go.
I guess the possibilities to expand the withdrawal system and the events idea are almost limitless, and could be turned into a cherry on the cake. And all just optional, just a switch or two in the game menu.

Or the player marks units that are badly depleted and would historically have been withdrawn for rebuild to France or Germany. And after 6 months, they arrive back rebuild. As a side note, that would be much better than particularly the fixed withdrawals that were historically just to rebuild and reequip units like the SS Division that Pyledriver had to give away in front of Moscow in his AAR -- which was not at all depleted, and in need of withdrawal. Completely ignoring the strategic situation. It just does not make any sense at all -- even Hitler delayed such withdrawals in case the situation needed so (see my older post for example). It would be a nasty stain for a game that starts out so promising not to get also these details correct, and have the withdrawal schedule seem completely disconnected from the "game reality".