Comprehensive Wishlist

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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This passage is also of interest:

"...The 88-mm gun can be brought into action very rapidly, possibly in about two minutes; it can, if necessary, fire from its trailer, though only against ground targets..."

The inference here is that the 88 would be virtually useless for providing mobile AA protection. It can come into action quickly, but not in an AA role.

Again, you've misread the passage. "Firing from its trailer" would be without any deployment action at all - immediately. Given two minutes, it's ready to go against anything.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This passage is also of interest:

"...The 88-mm gun can be brought into action very rapidly, possibly in about two minutes; it can, if necessary, fire from its trailer, though only against ground targets..."

The inference here is that the 88 would be virtually useless for providing mobile AA protection. It can come into action quickly, but not in an AA role.

Again, you've misread the passage. "Firing from its trailer" would be without any deployment action at all - immediately. Given two minutes, it's ready to go against anything.

I thought the point was obvious, but I guess it wasn't; two minutes is far too long a prep time to provide mobile AA defense.

A ground-strafing fighter will cover 8 miles in two minutes and exhaust its ammunition in ten seconds. By the time the 88 is set up, the attack will be over.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

I'm afraid you're making things up as you go along. I don't know what altitude Wellingtons bombed from, but it was considerable, and more to the point, defending against such strikes was the AA role 88's were intended to fulfill.

I'm not making up that those are precision targets that require low altitiudes to target them. Nor that they were targeted by fighter-bombers. Just because the Wellington was a level bomber doesn't mean it only operated at 20,000 feet. Anything that could target such things could also target troop concentrations in the same manner. Therefore, anything that could defend them could defend troop concentrations in the same manner as well.
For defense against low-level strikes light AA would have been both cheaper and considerably more effective.

Maybe cheaper but not more effective.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

I thought the point was obvious, but I guess it wasn't; two minutes is far too long a prep time to provide mobile AA defense.

A ground-strafing fighter will cover 8 miles in two minutes and exhaust its ammunition in ten seconds. By the time the 88 is set up, the attack will be over.

They can be spotted much further out than that. And take longer to coordinate their attack route. And may consist of several planes and passes. And two minutes is just one estimate. There's also an estimate of seconds.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

I thought the point was obvious, but I guess it wasn't; two minutes is far too long a prep time to provide mobile AA defense.

A ground-strafing fighter will cover 8 miles in two minutes and exhaust its ammunition in ten seconds. By the time the 88 is set up, the attack will be over.

They can be spotted much further out than that. And take longer to coordinate their attack route. And may consist of several planes and passes. And two minutes is just one estimate. There's also an estimate of seconds.

This really is like arguing with my fifteen year old. It's just like it.

Look: your arguments never hold up to examination -- for the excellent example that they rarely have any foundation in reality.

Ever hear of the 'Africa squint,' or whatever it was? In Africa, tactical aircraft would be on you within seconds -- not minutes. You had about enough time to fling yourself out of your vehicle and hit the dirt -- not two minutes to set up the 88. Now, you could start banging away with the portee-mounted 2 cm -- which was what it was for.

Take it another way. Go to ten random locations in your day. Look around and see over what percentage of the horizon you could see a low flying aircraft eight miles away. Even if you could see it, could you identify it as hostile?

It's random, but I looked around my place. I have visibility along ground level eight miles out over about 10% of the 360 degree circle around my house. Even in that case, I doubt if I could distinguish a small aircraft eight miles out. I certainly couldn't tell whose it was or what its intentions were.

Offhand, and on average -- and going by what accounts I can recall, I'd guess fifteen seconds warning of an incoming strafing attack is average. Certainly not two minutes.

But this is what you do. You never consider historical or even everyday reality in your arguments. It's all about attempting to carry the day with whatever silly claim you've made. One will usually have two minutes warning of a strafing attack. 88's make fine mobile flak. Wadis are trenches. Your TOAW scenario of Waterloo is a perfectly good simulation. The supply system is just fine. It never ends -- and the worst of it is that you're in a position to impose your views on the game we all play.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Maybe cheaper but not more effective.

Come on, Bob! You have no frigging idea, and in any case, it's unlikely. You just make whatever statements the rhetorical needs of your argument require, without any regard for what the facts might be whatsoever.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

I thought the point was obvious, but I guess it wasn't; two minutes is far too long a prep time to provide mobile AA defense.

A ground-strafing fighter will cover 8 miles in two minutes and exhaust its ammunition in ten seconds. By the time the 88 is set up, the attack will be over.

They can be spotted much further out than that. And take longer to coordinate their attack route. And may consist of several planes and passes. And two minutes is just one estimate. There's also an estimate of seconds.

This really is like arguing with my fifteen year old. It's just like it.

Actually, and on reflection, to be fair it's not like arguing with my fifteen year old -- not really.

On occasion -- and particularly if I don't blow up -- he will eventually get this sheepish grin and admit I'm right.

That'll never happen with Bob. No fear.

You ever get suspicious about just how good your batting average is, Bob? Ever think maybe that doesn't mean quite what you would like it to mean?
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
The biggest reason why the 8.8 wasn't practical versus tactical bomber was that it wasn't until 1945 that the time fuse was replaced by a proximity one (which tripled the efficiency versus strategic bombers).

And heat-seeking and radar-guidance weren't developed till much later still. [X(]

What does that have to do with anything? No German AAA had proximity fuses.

Give credit where credit is due. It would appear Curtis is substantially right on this one. The closest I got to evidence that the Germans had proximity fuses is this:

"...Little known however is that the Germans independently developed and
successfully test fired almost 1000 rounds of a similar proximity fuse
near the wars end that if introduced into service would have had a
dramatic effect. The allies estimated that the availability of the
proximity fuse would force them to abandon use of the B-24 Liberator
due to its lower flying altitude compared to the B-17..."


One thousand rounds of AA fire isn't very much. I'd say the Germans had proximity fuses like they had rocket fighters.

That is even worse for the argument that 8.8 was good versus tactical bombers. The time fuse needed accurate measurement of altitude and speed to be effective, if that isn't possible it isn't firing shrapnel.

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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


ORIGINAL: madner


Now, true enough the Wehrmacht could have asked for a dual purpose AA/AT gun from Krupp, but there is point 1.

On reflection, a dual purpose AA/AT gun the size of an 88 sounds unlikely.

The original 88 was built as an AA gun -- and look at that! It's just dandy against bunkers and tanks. However, that wasn't the original idea.

I believe later variants were purpose-built as AT guns -- and I doubt very much if any were intended to fulfill both roles well. If one thinks about it, an AA gun is going to have elevating gear and stuff that's going to give it a high profile, whilst an AT gun should have as low a profile as possible, and the barrel doesn't need to be elevated much. As an intentional design, a 'dual purpose AA/AT gun' makes about as much sense as an assault scout car.

[/quote]

That is true, but as a pure AA gun it was inferior to almost any other nation gun, for precisely the reasons it was such a good ground gun. Also, it wasn't by chance it was employed versus ground targets, but proper ammo, optics and crew training was in place prior to meeting heavy tanks.



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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: madner



That is true, but as a pure AA gun it was inferior to almost any other nation gun, for precisely the reasons it was such a good ground gun. Also, it wasn't by chance it was employed versus ground targets, but proper ammo, optics and crew training was in place prior to meeting heavy tanks.




Yeah -- and all of these reasons plus doctrine and historical use are reasons why players should think twice before including unmodified AA guns in their units' OOB's. The German 88 -- as an AA piece commonly used against ground targets -- was more an exception to the rule than the rule itself. My own impression -- which I am happy to have supplemented -- is that routine use of flak for ground combat was confined to the German army throughout the war plus the British army late in the war.

AA guns may have been in units, but if they didn't commonly play an effective role in ground combat, they should be omitted. All the more so since the mechanism TOAW has for simulating the effect of AA as AA is almost absurdly bad. In three cases out of four, you're including a weapon which will behave contrary to history.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This really is like arguing with my fifteen year old. It's just like it.

Look: your arguments never hold up to examination -- for the excellent example that they rarely have any foundation in reality.

Here come the insults. Right on schedule. He's incapable of anything else.
Take it another way. Go to ten random locations in your day. Look around and see over what percentage of the horizon you could see a low flying aircraft eight miles away. Even if you could see it, could you identify it as hostile?

It's random, but I looked around my place. I have visibility along ground level eight miles out over about 10% of the 360 degree circle around my house. Even in that case, I doubt if I could distinguish a small aircraft eight miles out. I certainly couldn't tell whose it was or what its intentions were.

Again, they aren't cruise missiles. They have to find their targets from altitude. You can see them from enormous distances if they start out at 20,000 feet. And there's optics in use as well. Precautions can be taken even if it's unknown if the planes are hostile. And, there were the two issues of multiple passes and multiple planes in sequence. The actual attack could last quite a while. If the attack could be limited to just one plane and one pass, that would be worth doing.
Offhand, and on average -- and going by what accounts I can recall, I'd guess fifteen seconds warning of an incoming strafing attack is average. Certainly not two minutes.

You can guess whatever you want, but that's what it will be. And I forgot the fact that the bombers don't magically disappear as soon as they pass the target. They have to fly out of range - being fired at as they go. The longer range heavy Flak would be better able to exploit that.

Look, there isn't a magic solution to getting strafed. If there were, Germans wouldn't have had trouble moving around late in the war. It's a problem for towed light AAA as well (and that's primarily what infantry divisions would have had - the SPAAG was for armored divisions). But that isn't the only AAA function Flak guns perform. When in defense or attack, 88's would already be unlimbered.

Your own post #1092 actually describes the use of heavy flak during moves:

...Protection against high-level attack by heavy Flak is required only at assembly, entrucking and detrucking areas, halts and especially dangerous points the route such as bridges, defiles or intersections.

That means that moving units needed heavy Flak to cover their moves.

This whole issue is getting absurd. If the 88mm Flak was only used for AT in the field, then why continue to provide a Flak gun to the field units? Why not just make a dedicated AT gun? The Germans made 57 versions of just about everything. What prevented them from making a dedicated 88mm Flak gun using the Flak-37 tube?

The only plausible answer is that it was performing a dual purpose in the field at the time. Later, as the Allies got more coordinated, that ceased to be the case, and they finally did have to make the dedicated AT gun, and 86ed the Flak-41.

QED.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




Again, they aren't cruise missiles. They have to find their targets from altitude. You can see them from enormous distances if they start out at 20,000 feet.

This is fairly typical. First, fighters on a strafing mission don't need to climb to 20,000 feet. In fact, coming down to the deck and zipping along a road until something turns up would be a fine idea.

Second, go ahead and look outside. Pick out a point eight miles away and tell me what detail you can distinguish. Your average fighter bomber would have a wingspan of thirty feet. Can you see such an object? Make out its nationality and its heading?

Third, go look at the horizon around where you live. Something at an altitude of say five thousand feet (not twenty thousand) is going to be out of sight at a range of eight miles in a good many cases. Hills and things, you know. Hard to look through trees.

Finally, and most important, look at the flak that was actually attached to mobile units. 88's aren't there -- not with the mobile elements.

Happily, as it happens, I have my Seelowe Scenario. All nicely researched, too. There was a lot of flak attached. But 88's to the mobile units? No. All light flak.

You don't let anything -- historical practice, technical feasibility, or even common sense -- get in the way of what you're bent on asserting. It's all a matter of you sticking to whatever silly-ass assertion you made in the first place, come hell or high water.

Even that wouldn't be so bad -- except that we're stuck with you being in a position where you can influence the development of TOAW. It's like having an advocate of 'wooden ships and iron men' in charge of warship development in 1890.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This really is like arguing with my fifteen year old. It's just like it.

Look: your arguments never hold up to examination -- for the excellent example that they rarely have any foundation in reality.

Here come the insults. Right on schedule. He's incapable of anything else.

I knew that post was around here somewhere. I actually went back to look for it last night to strip this stuff out -- in the interests of keeping some focus to the argument if nothing else.

Couldn't find it, though. But seriously, it happens to be true. Your arguments usually don't have any foundation in reality. They display an almost incredible refusal to take any cognizance of it at all.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Your own post #1092 actually describes the use of heavy flak during moves:

...Protection against high-level attack by heavy Flak is required only at assembly, entrucking and detrucking areas, halts and especially dangerous points the route such as bridges, defiles or intersections.

That means that moving units needed heavy Flak to cover their moves.

This whole issue is getting absurd. If the 88mm Flak was only used for AT in the field, then why continue to provide a Flak gun to the field units? Why not just make a dedicated AT gun? The Germans made 57 versions of just about everything. What prevented them from making a dedicated 88mm Flak gun using the Flak-37 tube?

The only plausible answer is that it was performing a dual purpose in the field at the time. Later, as the Allies got more coordinated, that ceased to be the case, and they finally did have to make the dedicated AT gun, and 86ed the Flak-41.

QED.

You are trying to bend facts to fit with your opinion. The opinion being that the increased tactical proficiency of the allies spelled doom on the regular 8.8. Which ignores that the same units which used the 8.8 to support the Heer units did it right to the end, with the same gun. The Flak 41 wasn't used, but the Luftwaffe units still were used in field and still were called upon to assist with ground targets.

What changed was that other Heer units now had a dedicated AT gun of the same caliber.
If your opinion would be correct, those Flak units couldn't and wouldn't be used.

What fits the facts is that the Heer didn't consider the AA capability of the dual gun useful, or at least not useful enough.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This is fairly typical. First, fighters on a strafing mission don't need to climb to 20,000 feet. In fact, coming down to the deck and zipping along a road until something turns up would be a fine idea.

They have to climb to considerable altitude to find their targets. They can be spotted then. Especially if they're an entire squadron or group. They only come down to the deck for the attack run. And even then they don't have ground hugging ability - that's a modern technology. Most attacks that I've seen film of were made at about 30-degree dives.
Second, go ahead and look outside. Pick out a point eight miles away and tell me what detail you can distinguish. Your average fighter bomber would have a wingspan of thirty feet. Can you see such an object? Make out its nationality and its heading?

Ever been to an air show? You can see them a long way off. And that's without optics. You can take precautions even if you don't know they're hostile (although I would think friendlies could be identified via radio).
Third, go look at the horizon around where you live. Something at an altitude of say five thousand feet (not twenty thousand) is going to be out of sight at a range of eight miles in a good many cases. Hills and things, you know. Hard to look through trees.

They're aircraft. They won't be on the horizon. They will be at considerable altitude.

Regardless, you're ignoring all my other points:

1. The straffing plane has to fly away after the strike. That takes minutes.
2. Passes by multiple planes take minutes.
3. Multiple passes by one plane takes minutes.
4. Light AAA is often towed as well. That takes time to unlimber too.
4. Even if it can't be deployed for an interdiction attack, it would be already deployed for a unit that wasn't moving - say it was attacking or defending.

There is no question that the fact that the 88's weren't in SPAAG does not mean that they were worthless for air defense for ground units.
Finally, and most important, look at the flak that was actually attached to mobile units. 88's aren't there -- not with the mobile elements.

Happily, as it happens, I have my Seelowe Scenario. All nicely researched, too. There was a lot of flak attached. But 88's to the mobile units? No. All light flak.

I don't know about Seelowe, but they were there in the Desert. Again, whether they were organic or independent is irrelevant.

Furthermore, by 1944 they were organically part of the mobile units. And, by then, they were primarily used for air defence, not AT.
You don't let anything -- historical practice, technical feasibility, or even common sense -- get in the way of what you're bent on asserting. It's all a matter of you sticking to whatever silly-ass assertion you made in the first place, come hell or high water.

Even that wouldn't be so bad -- except that we're stuck with you being in a position where you can influence the development of TOAW. It's like having an advocate of 'wooden ships and iron men' in charge of warship development in 1890.

Right. You're the final arbiter of "historical practice, technical feasibility, or even common sense". That's hilarious.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Here come the insults. Right on schedule. He's incapable of anything else.

I knew that post was around here somewhere. I actually went back to look for it last night to strip this stuff out -- in the interests of keeping some focus to the argument if nothing else.

Couldn't find it, though. But seriously, it happens to be true. Your arguments usually don't have any foundation in reality. They display an almost incredible refusal to take any cognizance of it at all.

It's just a fact that till you arrived the only thing being slung was evidence.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: madner

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Your own post #1092 actually describes the use of heavy flak during moves:

...Protection against high-level attack by heavy Flak is required only at assembly, entrucking and detrucking areas, halts and especially dangerous points the route such as bridges, defiles or intersections.

That means that moving units needed heavy Flak to cover their moves.

This whole issue is getting absurd. If the 88mm Flak was only used for AT in the field, then why continue to provide a Flak gun to the field units? Why not just make a dedicated AT gun? The Germans made 57 versions of just about everything. What prevented them from making a dedicated 88mm Flak gun using the Flak-37 tube?

The only plausible answer is that it was performing a dual purpose in the field at the time. Later, as the Allies got more coordinated, that ceased to be the case, and they finally did have to make the dedicated AT gun, and 86ed the Flak-41.

QED.

You are trying to bend facts to fit with your opinion. The opinion being that the increased tactical proficiency of the allies spelled doom on the regular 8.8. Which ignores that the same units which used the 8.8 to support the Heer units did it right to the end, with the same gun. The Flak 41 wasn't used, but the Luftwaffe units still were used in field and still were called upon to assist with ground targets.

What changed was that other Heer units now had a dedicated AT gun of the same caliber.
If your opinion would be correct, those Flak units couldn't and wouldn't be used.

What fits the facts is that the Heer didn't consider the AA capability of the dual gun useful, or at least not useful enough.

Again, I'm not bending facts to fit my opinion. I'm actually listing facts. Let's list them again:

1. Early in the war the Germans used a Flak gun in an AT role. They never made a dedicated AT gun with that tube.
2. Late in the war the Germans finally made a dedicated 88mm AT gun and the Flak 88's were phased out of use in the AT role.

There's only one explaination for those two facts that doesn't require the Germans to be militarily incompetent: At first the gun provided a dual use, later it didn't.

Now I want to go back to the "proximity fuse" issue:

Only the USA and the British had Proximity fuses. They were first used by naval units from 1943 on, and were finally released to ground units in late autumn, 1944. So neither the Soviets nor any of the Axis had them at all, while the Western Allied ground forces only had them for less than 10% of the war. Considering that the Western Allies accounted for less than 10% of the ground combat in the ETO, that totals to less than 1% of ground combat having proximity fuses in the war. It is therefore absurd to claim that German heavy flak was somehow inferior due to lack of proximity fuses.

Note that naval units used heavy flak as their main defense against air attack. US BBs had the 5” DP guns. British Nelsons had 4.7” AA guns. German BBs had 105mm Flak. Italian BBs had 90mm AA. Japanese BBs had 127mm AA guns. While the US and British did have proximity fuses late in the war, those BBs were designed with heavy AA long before such existed. US BBs designed after 1943 wouldn’t have been launched before the end of the war. And the other nations never had it at all.

Now, naval vessels at sea only need defend against low-altitude air attack. High-altitude air bombardment would be near useless against a ship at sea – avoided by mere maneuver. At port the ship would depend upon port air defenses. The use of tonnage on a vessel is critical and no naval architect would waste tons of it on armament that was worthless at sea.

Conclusion: Heavy AA is effective vs. low-altitude air attack, even without proximity fuses. That it would be more effective with them doesn’t mean that it wasn’t effective without them.

QED.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Jo van der Pluym »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Note that naval units used heavy flak as their main defense against air attack. US BBs had the 5” DP guns. British Nelsons had 4.7” AA guns. German BBs had 105mm Flak. Italian BBs had 90mm AA. Japanese BBs had 127mm AA guns. While the US and British did have proximity fuses late in the war, those BBs were designed with heavy AA long before such existed. US BBs designed after 1943 wouldn’t have been launched before the end of the war. And the other nations never had it at all.

Now, naval vessels at sea only need defend against low-altitude air attack. High-altitude air bombardment would be near useless against a ship at sea – avoided by mere maneuver. At port the ship would depend upon port air defenses. The use of tonnage on a vessel is critical and no naval architect would waste tons of it on armament that was worthless at sea.

Conclusion: Heavy AA is effective vs. low-altitude air attack, even without proximity fuses. That it would be more effective with them doesn’t mean that it wasn’t effective without them.

QED.

If I good remember was there a allied tactic that made heavy AA very effective agains attacking torpedoplanes. Namely: A heavy volume of shells where fired in the sea near and in the path of the attacking planes. These shells made a sort of wave so hard as a concrete wall. Mostley the attacking planes can't escape and crashed in the wave because the height, speed and short distance between the wave and plane.

This same tactic where also used bij the other shipguns who where no DP or AA.




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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Again, I'm not bending facts to fit my opinion. I'm actually listing facts. Let's list them again:

1. Early in the war the Germans used a Flak gun in an AT role. They never made a dedicated AT gun with that tube.
2. Late in the war the Germans finally made a dedicated 88mm AT gun and the Flak 88's were phased out of use in the AT role.

There's only one explaination for those two facts that doesn't require the Germans to be militarily incompetent: At first the gun provided a dual use, later it didn't.

1. Correct.
2. Not correct. The Flak 88's were still used in the AT role up until the end of the war. The mobile flak units still supported the ground forces when called upon, and it wasn't less.
What happened was that the AT battalions now had that gun, instead of the 3.7 or 5cm.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

The following link is to one of Dr. Niklas Zetterling’s research files for his “Normandy 1944” book:

http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/gerob/othghq/3flak.html

(I used his site extensively in the design of my “France 1944” scenario.)

It gives great detail about that unit’s experience in Normandy. He also uses those details to reach conclusions about the 88mm Flak gun that echo what I’ve been saying all along.

He starts with an examination of the unit’s primary role in Normandy:

“It is common to emphasize the anti-tank role of the 8,8 cm Flak gun. However, this seems not to be consistent with the employement of the III. Flak-Korps.2 The major reason for this is that the 8,8 cm Flak gun was not very suitable for anti-tank missions.”

He then goes on to list the disadvantages that the gun had for the AT role, most of which we have already heard (hard to hide, hard to move, etc.). He then lists the true role of the unit:

“First and foremost, the corps was employed in the air defence role7. This was the main mission and initially it extended from the front to a line from Falaise to Le Beny Bocage8. The second important mission of the corps was to provide indirect fire to support the ground combat units.9 The chief reason for this was the shortage of GHQ artillery. Due to the range of the 8,8 cm guns, this could often be provided from the positions they were to protect from air attack.”

So, not only was it there primarily to provide air defense, but it generally wasn’t even in the frontlines, but directly behind them – close enough, though, to serve as artillery support.

And, on those rare occasions when enemy tanks penetrated far enough to engage the guns, their performance was poor:

“The Flakkampfgruppen were not very successful in combat. The results were not in proportion to the casualties.11 They lost about 35 8,8 cm guns and 70 light Flak guns, while the number of tanks they knocked out were assessed to be twenty.12 ”

Later he surmises why the 88mm had such a reputation as a tank-killer:

“Finally it is worth discussing why the 8,8 cm Flak gun has received such a repution in the history of operation Overlord. In 1940 and 1941, when the German antitank defences mainly consisted of the 3,7 cm AT gun, the 8,8 cm Flak 36 was significantly superior in terms of armour pentration and range. With the introduction of the 7,5 cm Pak 40, the superiority of the 8,8 cm Flak 36 was relatively marginal. However, it seems that the image of the all-pervasive 8,8 cm Flak guns was created in the early years of the war, largely in North Africa. During much of the fighting in North Africa British tank units were equipped with tanks armed with guns that had no HE ammunition. Also the cooperation between British tanks and artillery was often abysmal. In Normandy the behaviour of British forces was quite different however. Hence, the drawbacks of the 8,8 cm Flak gun, described above, were much more pronounced. But still the image of the "88 mm Flak" seem to have been vivid.”

In other words, it was British incompetence in the Desert War – which had been rectified by 1944. He also lists misidentification as another source of its reputation.

In contrast, the air defense role of the unit was much more successful. He lists 462 aircraft shot down. He even accounts how it was subject to much air attack during its move to Normandy. It took quite a bit of damage, yet:

“The march to Normandy did not only result in losses for the corps. It also shot down about 35 air craft during the movement to Normandy.27”

This was despite the fact that the unit did not have SPAAG.

So, to summarize, by 1944, not only were frontline units being augmented with organic 88mm Flak in their TO&E, but entire Corps-sized units were being provided for further augmentation of the front lines as well. This unit contained over 100 88mm Flak guns and received 53 more over the Normandy campaign.

And, by that time, their role was primarily air defense. This was not just because of the severe air threat the Germans were under, but because the guns were just no longer effective in the AT role. The period when they could be used effectively in that role had been due to enemy incompetence, and that was no longer the case.

A note here about Dr. Zetterling: He is renown for exhaustive research of primary documents and uses it to flog lesser historians like Ambrose, Bever, et al. who rely primarily on secondary Allied sources. His (heavily referenced) positions are based upon the official report of the unit on its Normandy experience, the memoirs of the unit’s commander, and the actual combat statistics of the unit in Normandy.

The link is both definitive and conclusive. It supports everything I’ve been saying all along. It should be the end of this discussion.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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