East Front book talk

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

A new book to come out which is very good, but expensive, Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East, by David Stahel published as part of Cambridge Military Histories, copyright 2009

I am about finished with this work, and frankly it is outstanding. It is a must read for the serious student of the Russian-German war. The book is very well written and is balanced and well thought out. I highly recommend it. I can see why it made the Cambridge Military Histories.

[SNorth]

Any interest in Eastern Front fiction out there? Just curious. I am a writer, but I haven't branched out very far from Science Fiction or Horror yet.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Any interest in Eastern Front fiction out there? Just curious. I am a writer, but I haven't branched out very far from Science Fiction or Horror yet.

Ofc it was another time, but since Paul Carrell has alrdy been mentioned.
The sales numbers of Sven Hassels books suggest that there at leased was an interest in the subject.

Not some thing i would read, but there could very well be an market for it Stephen.

Rasmus

[SNorth]

Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.

[MarcA]

One aspect of the war in the East is the air war. I found this set of books from Christer Bergstrom very readable and informative. It covers the whole war, though concentrates on four main events. It is biased a little towards the Germans but makes a valiant attempt at dealing with both sides.

Barbarossa

Stalingrad

Kursk

Berlin

[SNorth]

I've only read one account of the air war, and that was called 'Stuka' or maybe 'Stuka Pilot' (can't remember for sure, too many years have passed), by Hans Ulrich Rudel. It was interesting. Claimed over 500 tank kills, and I think he sank a Soviet cruiser. He may have been (once again not sure after all these years) the most 'highly decorated' German soldier of the war.

[Burl]

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.

you could write a short story about a guy who posts on wargame boards and collects plastic T-34s and plays paintball in fatigues. You could mention his pompous certainty that if moscow had fallen the soviet union would have gone down the tubes.

You could put a big red book by Glantz on his coffee table, and you could write about how Kiev in sept 41 wasn't stalins fault.

You might talk about food and how it tastes like hemmingway in the nic adams stories.

[SNorth]

ORIGINAL: Burl

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.

you could write a short story about a guy who posts on wargame boards and collects plastic T-34s and plays paintball in fatigues. You could mention his pompous certainty that if moscow had fallen the soviet union would have gone down the tubes.

You could put a big red book by Glantz on his coffee table, and you could write about how Kiev in sept 41 wasn't stalins fault.

You might talk about food and how it tastes like hemmingway in the nic adams stories.

Not sure whether you've heard of Carl Hiasson, but if you just included rampant, out of control capitalism and the war's damage to the environment, it might be a novel he'd write. Hmm, maybe I should explore this...

I'll actually speculate seriously now, but on Eastern Front movies. Not sure how many of you saw Enemy at the Gates, a movie about dueling snipers in Stalingrad. It could have been great, but wasn't. Cross of Iron was much better.

[ComradeP]

"Stalingrad" is also a much better movie than Enemy at the Gates.

[MarcA]

Stalingrad is a great movie, highly recommended

[SNorth]

I'll check it out---Thanks!

[SGHunt]

Stephen

A much better fictional work is The Stalin Organ, by Gert Ledig (a great cover!)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stalin-Organ-Ge ... 1862076529
or Siege (about Cholm) by Russ Schneider
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Siege-Novel-Eas ... 640&sr=1-1
plus the original Cross of Iron by Willi Heinrich (on which the film is based)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cross-Iron-Cass ... 025&sr=1-1
and although it claims to be a real autobiography, I'm pretty sure it's a novel (and a very good read) there's The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Soldi ... pd_sim_b_2

Hope these are helpful leads
Stuart

[SNorth]

Heinrich's 'Cross of Iron' was a great read, Stuart. I also enjoyed 'The Forgotten Soldier,' even if it was fiction. Really appreciate the other two recommendations---Hadn't heard of them. Thanks.

[Adam Parker]

Great thread.

For an interesting series of books I would recommend in order:

Hitler's War on Russia by Carell. This is the deluxe version.

The Unknown Black Book - The Holocaust in the German-Occupied Soviet Territories. Tracing the ride of the Einsatzgruppen broadly across all German Army Group areas.

Masters of Death - The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust . "Invention" here, meaning genesis of the Holocaust. This is a no-holds barred narrative of the German rear echelons in the wake of Barbarossa.

Barbarossa Derailed v1 Glantz's latest book just released last week. Vol 2 is due in a couple of months time. Should be an indepth contrast to Carell.

Scorched Earth. Volume 2 of Carell's East Front magnum opus.

Decision in the Ukraine by Nipes. Takes the action from Kursk through to the pursuit against the German South.

The Korsun Pocket by Zetterling (of the Germans in Normandy fame). Where once there was a dearth of literature, many studies are now blossoming.

Soviet Blitzkrieg The Battle for White Russia 1944. Dunn's classic expose of Bagration (I bought this in hard cover years ago for $100 - what a dope!).

Then any number of books that cover the campaigns through Hungary, Poland and Germany. I particularly am interested in Glantz's treatment of Leningrad and the end of Army Group North in The Battle for Leningrad 1941-1944 .


I personally feel that any study of the East Front without an examination of the tragedy, logistics and economics of the Holocaust is meaningless. In this light, both Carell and the writings of the the Soviet-side specialists such as Glantz and Erickson become of equal value. Two sides to a war in which the goals of the protagonists were far from clear.


PS: I forgot to insert after Barbarossa Derailed the classic text on Stalingrad - Enemy at the Gates (1973). Not the book of the movie but the classic by William Craig that inspired of all things, the board game "Squad Leader" in its operational grit.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Stephen

A much better fictional work is The Stalin Organ, by Gert Ledig (a great cover!)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stalin-Organ-Ge ... 1862076529
or Siege (about Cholm) by Russ Schneider
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Siege-Novel-Eas ... 640&sr=1-1
plus the original Cross of Iron by Willi Heinrich (on which the film is based)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cross-Iron-Cass ... 025&sr=1-1
and although it claims to be a real autobiography, I'm pretty sure it's a novel (and a very good read) there's The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Soldi ... pd_sim_b_2

Hope these are helpful leads
Stuart

Loved Seige....great novel...overlooked.

Another book....Scar of Honor...good read...you can get it from another online bookshop as Amazon havent got it in stock...

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-Honor-Novel ... 020&sr=1-1

[Adam Parker]

FYI, for whatever reason Amazon is now showing a release date of August 2010 instead of June for volume 1 of the new Glantz series on Barbarossa. Volume 2 has now been pushed back to December:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Barbarossa Derailed v1

[Grisha]

Two facets of Soviet operational art in WWII that are still little understood are their conduct of deception (maskirovka) and of intelligence (razvedka). It was a force multiplier at the operational level, which meant that at the tactical level its effect was magnified significantly. For example, prior to the Vistula-Oder operation of 1945, the Germans did not detect or identify roughly half the Soviet forces present in that operational area, a number that amounted to a million soldiers.

Glantz wrote two books that address these two aspects of Soviet operational art:
a) Soviet Military Intelligence in War.
b) Soviet Military Deception in the Second World War.

Other good books that address Soviet operational art or those aspects of intelligence and deception are:
i) In Pursuit of Military Excellence by Shimon Naveh
ii) Red Army Legacies by Richard Armstrong
iii) The Soviet Conduct of Tactical Maneuver by Glantz
iv) The Nature of Operations of Modern Armies by Triandafillov

Admittedly, these books can make for dry reading, but if the objective is to understand Soviet military operations in WWII, then these are strongly recommended.

[ComradeP]

Much of the impact of the maskirovka is associated with the poor operational level intelligence gathering of the Germans after the Luftwaffe lost air superiority. Arguably, there wasn't much the Germans could do about that, even if their intelligence services were more capable than they were historically.

[Grisha]

Granted, German air reconnaissance was hindered once the bulk of the jaeger arm redeployed for home defense, but even during Kursk Soviet deception measures had proved reasonably effective. The other point to remember is that Soviet deception was a complex methodology, and was certainly not limited to how well you physically covered regroupments. For example, intelligence agents were given false information on the understanding some would be caught. The same for partisans. Merely the act of conducting large intel operations in false areas was a deception move.

A last point to ponder is that even at late as January 1945, German tactical intelligence was second to none. A mere two weeks following the launch of the Vistula-Oder Soviet operation, the Germans knew the location of every significant Soviet military unit in the area. Considering the severity of the Soviet breakthrough and the extensive exploitation that followed, it's an amazing feat.

[Pipewrench]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Gotta read your Glantz. There's just a ton of stuff there you won't find elsewhere, and even Erickson is rather dated at this point.

If you want a nice taste of it, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

great video, thanks for the link. hope there are more jewels out there.

Albert Seatons book Russo German War