Canadians

[Sredni]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Okay - but my understanding was that in WWI the declaration of war by Canada WAS automatic along with that of the UK, but in WWII the Canadian parliament took a week or so to decide of its own accord to declare war?

well shucks... it seems you're right. heh.

http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/inde ... RTA0008717

As I said our country doesn't really go into it's own history that much. But still kinda embarrassing to have it explained to me by someone else lol.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Sredni

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Okay - but my understanding was that in WWI the declaration of war by Canada WAS automatic along with that of the UK, but in WWII the Canadian parliament took a week or so to decide of its own accord to declare war?

well shucks... it seems you're right. heh.

http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/inde ... RTA0008717

As I said our country doesn't really go into it's own history that much. But still kinda embarrassing to have it explained to me by someone else lol.

Warspite1

Thanks for the link Sredni [:)]. Sadly we are the same in the UK - too busy worrying about political correctness to teach our kids proper history [&:]

[Raverdave]

The best things about the Canadians in WiTP are the KVs[&o]  They are real sub killers !

[Heeward]

The 13th Brigade of the 6th Division was used in the invasion of Kiska, as well as the 1st Special Service Brigade.

My brief search of the internet shows no RCAF units committed to the Pacific prior to the fall of Germany outside of North America.

[RCNVR]

For the story of the war in Alask and the West Coast:

If the 14th Army was the "Forgotten Army" the campaign in Alaska and the West Coast is "The Forgotten War"which happens to be a book by Stan Cohen - A pictorial history of WWII in Alaska and Northwestern Canada - material from both US and Canada

For a more Canadian viewpoint read "War On Our Doorstep: The Unknown Campaign on North America's West Coast" by Brendan Coyle

These give some indication of the Canadian involvement in the Pacific War.

Of course most of Canada's contribution to WWII was in Europe. RCN in the Battle of the Atlantic, 1st Canandian Army in Italy and in Western Europe and RCAF

RCAF - about 35 sqdns overseas - 12 fighter 14 bomber - 6th Bomber Group was RCAF - about 1/4 of RAF Bomber Command was Canadian
About 60% of RCAF overseas served in RAF units

"On the first of January 1944 the RCAF reached its peak wartime strength of 215,200 all ranks (including 15,153) women, 104,000 were in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, 64,928 were serving at home and 46,272 were serving overseas. There were 78 squadrons in service: 35 overseas, 43 at home (of which six had been ordered overseas). " from http://wwii.ca/content-41/world-war-ii/rcaf/
Note that some of the home squadrons were on the West Coast and some (7 I think) were doing ASW in the Atlantic
Only 3 sqdns in SEA

RCN - about 95000 men and 400 vessels at peak
Mostly operational in North Atlantic - eventually provided about half the North Atlantic escorts. Also had ships on the Russian convoys, North Sea and Channel. Some ships served a short time in the Med during Torch though some MGBs served in the Adriatic. Not very much on the Pacific coast - a couple of AMC and some corvettes and minesweepers

Also had personel serving with RN - HMS Nabob had a mostly Canadian crew


Canadian Army - about half a million
1Div went to UK early in the war, landed in Sicily and moved to Italy and 1 Cdn Corp fought in Italian campaign,
2 Div went ashore at Dieppe and latter was part of 1st Canadian Army in Europe (did eventually liberate Dieppe)
3, 4, 5 Div fought in NW Europe

Not very many troops in Pacific
2 Cdn Bns were in Hong Kong
about 6000 combat troops involved in Alaska

So about 1 in 14 Canadians were in the Armed Forces - all volunteer except some conscription near the end and usually only for home defence

Note too that Canada produced a fair amount of military equipment as well as raw materials so industry was demanding manpower as well.

Canada had some problems with rapid expansion of its military.
At the start of the war it had 3 bns in the regular army, 2 sqdns of modern aircraft (Hurricanes) and 13 ships (8DD and 5 MSW) in the navy. This meant that most personel even fairly senior officers and NCOs were recent volunteers. This lack of experience caused problems in all services during the growth spurt especially the navy. Eventually training and experience improved though I don't think we ever really got up the the Brigade of Guards standards of dress and deportment[:D].

[JSBoomer]

Thanks RCNVR, you beat me to the punch!

[vinnie71]

Interesting figures. But was this an arrangement that the Canadians had with the US (ie concentrate on Europe) or it just happened that way? Did the Canadian government ever want to withraw troops from the ETO?

[RCNVR]

Canada's commitment to the European and Atlantic Theatres started in 1939. I don't think that Canada was really worried about a Japanese invasion of the West Coast. Since the Japanese invasion of the Alaskan islands happened during Midway the threat of the Japanese working their way down the coast was not that high.

Canadian troops were already in the UK and I don't think there was any point in pulling them out to guard the West Coast, the same with aircraft there were already enough on the West Coast (ok I guess you can always use more aircraft but the need was not really there)

As far as the RCN goes they were fully committed to the Battle of the Atlantic and the forces there were not suited to the Pacific and losing the Battle of the Atlantic would have been a disaster (It was not won until 1943 and even then it continued until the very end)

I have never heard of a major attempt to redeploy forces to the Pacific until after the European war was over. There were several agreements with the US to coordinate the defence of North America. The US also did a lot of construction in Canada (highway and pipline) to improve supply to Alaska. Canada also built several airbases on the Westcoast as a defensive measure.

In game terms I am not sure where you would put extra Canadian forces. If you were given a couple of Cdn divisions would you leave them in Alaska? I would think most players would want them for India or Australia and IRL the Canadian government would rather have them in Europe. So I think that the game sets it up fairly well.

[xj900uk]

I tend to use the Canadian KV's for ASW work up and down the west coast, certainly for 41 & early 42 the USN is somewhat lacking in decent sub-killers...
Squadron-wise well I use the restricted search and torpedo planes for naval search and ASW work, there are surprisingly a large amount of (AI-controlled) Jap subs hanging around just outside Victoria waiting for the convoys to come out of places like Seattle. So far they have spotted several but I don't htink have sunk any (a Canadian minesweeper definitely hit a sub but I don't think sunk it)
It's now the middle of Feb '42, I used PP's to free up the first Kittyhawk squadron and sent it all the way to the SW Pacific where it saw service over Port Morseby - did pretty well but now only two planes left! [:(] so has gone to Australia for ome R&R. THe second Kitty hawk squadron is slowly making it's way out there to take over the skies above PM, together with at least one Canadian LCU saved (ie fled) from Hong Kong + another couple of Canadian militia units PP'ed and also sent out to the SW Pacific theatre - think the troops needed some warmth after the freezing cold of the Canadian winters (aren't i kind?)
Canadian Kittyhawks over PM have certianly done well - so far shot down about 10 IJ planes for the loss of 4. Dunno about replacements though...

[vinnie71]

Go for the Hurricanes. That is when the Canadians will come on their own, patroling the skies above their bases with Hurricanes.
 
BTW are there any engineer units which can be transferred. A few infantry brigades is ok, but without engineers, they are somewhat limited...

[xj900uk]

Now have two Canadian Kittyhawk squadrons ruling the skies (aided and abetted by a NZ squadron which recently upgraded to Hurricanes) above PM. Also the Winnipeg rifles have just disembarked (successfully, 6 Beatties down and no hits) and are getting combat ready (the date is 25.02.42)

[Gunner98]

Lots of good stuff so far, a couple other comments.

By 1944, ~40% of Bomber Command was Cdn.

There were two Ftr and one bomber Sqn committed to the Kiska campaign - this was considered 'Defence of North America' so 13 Bde commanded by Brig Foster (who also commanded one of the assault Bdes at Normandy) which was NRMA (National Resource Mobilization Act) and not eligible for deployment oversees was available for this action.

6th Cdn Div was nominated for the Pacific Campaign after the fall of Germany, there were ~80,000 volunteers for a 30,000 man commitment but the motivation of many who deployed to Europe in 1939 was to get home on a 'fast track' to get reorganized - they were betting on not being deployed.

1st Cdn Army by Feb 45 consisted of:
I Cdn Corps (just in from Italy) 1st Inf, 5th Armd Divs, 1 AGRA, 21 Ind Armd Bde and lots of other bits (was not in ops NWE until Mar)
II Cdn Corps (estb in Normandy 15 Jul 44) 2nd Inf, 3rd Inf, 4th Armd, 1st Polish Armd, 2 AGRA, 22nd Ind Armd Bde and other bits
XXX Brit Corps 3 then 4 Inf Divs and an AGRA (4th I think)
Had a US Corps under command for a while as well (can't find the ref at the moment)
Also included were
1st Belgian Inf Bde
Royal Netherlands Bde (Princess Irene's)
For some months 1st Cdn Army was the largest in NWE but the number of Cdns remained fairly constant at first 3 then 5 Divisions, 2 Amd Bds and 2 AGRA's.

As a percentage of population. It is my understanding that Canada's commitment was slightly higher than NZ and slightly lower than Oz but the numbers are debatable several ways. We had a 1939 population of 11.2 Million with 1.1 Million (92% volunteer) in uniform or 9.65% of the population. (Stacey, The Canadian Army 1939-1945 pp309-11)

Off topic but interesting.
1st Cdn Div arrived in France with BEF 2 (14-17 June 40) at Brest along with 52nd Brit Div, and were in France- Brest and points East for about 72 hours. Ordered to abandon all equipment and return to the UK. One of the Artillery units refused (anecdotally with drawn pistols) and re-loaded its guns. One of there original 25Lbrs was written off in a traffic accident so they stole a gun from an abandoned Brit Regt to make up their full 24 - that gun is a monument in Shilo Manitoba called - 'The Brest Gun'. As a side effect that Regt (1 RCHA) logged over a Million miles on its vehicles (during a time of stringent fuel rationing) in the next 4 months driving all over southern England showing the population that there was still an Army to defend them. In addition to the moral effect, Canada gained a large number of 'war brides' from that adventure.

Cheers

B

[HMS Resolution]

My fiancee's late grandfather was a Canadian Army "zombie"; one of the volunteers who declined to make themselves available for overseas service. He spent the war guarding German POWs.

In AE I typically give the transferrable RCAF squadrons the privilege of guarding Ceylon with 222 Group. In my current game, I managed to evacuate the Canadian troops from Hong Kong, and after they finish training in Australia, those lucky devils will form part of the Commonwealth's contribution to victory in SOWESPAC.

[warspite1]

OT, but as a matter of interest HMS Resolution - which ship is that in your signature? Warspite, Valiant or Queen Elizabeth?

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

Canadians: What do you do with 'em?

We like drinking and BBQ'ing so keep the beer and steaks coming and we will be no bother at all. Kidding aside, I've never played the Allied side yet, but I'd guess TF escort duty, ASW and air training would be the best use of Canadian assets. If there's an unrestricted fighter unit then get us in into the action somewhere.

[Kubel]

RCNVR well said[&o]

A couple more tidbits:

The RCN was the third largest navy at the end of the war.
The last VC of WW2 was awarded to Robert Hampton Grey for sinking a Japanese Destroyer on August 9th 1945, he died in the attack.
I live on the Alaska Highway built by US Engineers in 1942...amazing work.

My great uncle on my mother side flew Mosquito's and visited Berlin several times helping to bomb my fathers family (before he moved to Canada)

In game I send a Canadian Bde or 2 to Alaska, I ship a couple Cdn fighter Squadrons to India.
And I terrorize Jap Subs up and down the West Coast with Corvettes.

[HMS Resolution]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

OT, but as a matter of interest HMS Resolution - which ship is that in your signature? Warspite, Valiant or Queen Elizabeth?

It's Warspite in 1943. If you look closely you can see she has her 6" sponson mounts and the open HA/LA 4-inch mountings rather than the enclosed 4.5-inch DP guns of her two sisters.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

ORIGINAL: warspite1

OT, but as a matter of interest HMS Resolution - which ship is that in your signature? Warspite, Valiant or Queen Elizabeth?

It's Warspite in 1943. If you look closely you can see she has her 6" sponson mounts and the open HA/LA 4-inch mountings rather than the enclosed 4.5-inch DP guns of her two sisters.

Warspite1

Of course - the 6-inch guns should have been the giveaway - thanks for the response [:)].

[Rob Brennan UK]

Heres a titbit of info i dug out from subsim ..

http://www.montrealgazette.com/columnis ... story.html


Never too old to learn things [;)]

[The Gnome]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

Canadians: What do you do with 'em?

We like drinking and BBQ'ing so keep the beer and steaks coming and we will be no bother at all. Kidding aside, I've never played the Allied side yet, but I'd guess TF escort duty, ASW and air training would be the best use of Canadian assets. If there's an unrestricted fighter unit then get us in into the action somewhere.

LMAO. Sir, you are welcome around my BBQ fire anytime! This thread is a great education, thanks to everyone.

I wish the my Canuck friends to the north had more of those nice KV's, they have been wreaking havoc on japanese subs on the west coast. I may move some of the RCAF Kittyhawk squadrons to my air forces in India/Burma. For some reason the Japanese army is keeping what must be its entire inventory of Oscars there, so more fighters are always welcome.