Discord, you are right. What you ask for can be done.
... BUT I have only limited time and there are other things
which have to be done too.
My priority list has no slot for what you as for.
Coding a game is much more than adding stuff.
Its more about getting what you have also work on XP.
Weaponry
Moderator: MOD_TitansOfSteel
-
whitefirefox
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: none of your business
if thats the only "decent" rpg you've found then that must mean that every other single rpg sucks is that what your saying discord? because if you say yes your gonna get an ear full from me about good rpgs.........just a friendly piece of advice
"Jumpjets out of fuel? ........Oh crap...." (last words of my whitefirefox jock :p)
larkin: actualy, if the progs continue to be like this, and you can give the proggie's parameters on the command line, what i ask for could actualy be totaly external, just a dos script really....hey, why did i not think about that earlier....not that it's likely to stay this way....due to streamlining, and making the thing more "gfx oriented"....ahwell.
WFF: yes and no, if you are refering to FF and other squaresoft games, i'll just have this to tell you, WHO the frelling heck named'em "rpg's" since there are no "role's" to play, they are wonderful semi cinematic adventure games, kinda like a interactive movie, but they are not ROLE playing games.
same thing with the BG/IWD/NWN/Krynn/EOB series, and other AD&D based computer games, although not sure about NWN, and BG2 did have some rudimentary allowance for rp'ing, (since you COULD be evil, the game just got practicly impossible if you tried.) but my definition of a role playing game, demands that you...
#1 have a actual character, and not just a set of stats and a change of names(can be done in most of those systems with some imagination),
#2 have choices that changes the storyline on a deeper level then "hmm, wich weapon should i use to kill this monster?", or to put it bluntly, alternate endings depending on player actions, some of the squaresoft games(namely the better ones) did have this, read chrono trigger, but it did not have a character, see rule #1.
#3 semi intelligent(or atleast a resemblence of such) character interaction, once again BG2 stands out, especialy due to the romance stories....but BG2 falls on rule #2
#4 different ways of accomplishing the task, in the real world, most problems can be solved in several ways, fallout(and BG2 on some occasions.) shows some nice ways of doing this, try it and you will understand....after a while atleast.
these are some basic things that defines 'roleplaying', the only game i have played that actualy covers all these "basic" things is the fallout series, not that it is perfect, far from it, but it's the best i have tried.
mister white fire fox, dont try to lecture me on rpg's, i have played my share of 'so called' rpg's, and i actualy like'em, i just call'em adventure games(or perhaps more accurately, 'epic quest games'), i have also played quite abit of Pen&Paper rpg's in my time, or similar things....what i am coming down to, it's not that i call the FF style games bad games(even though the quality imho has taken a drastic turn for the worse after #6, or 3 if you follow the english counting.), i just dont call'em RPG's.
//discord
WFF: yes and no, if you are refering to FF and other squaresoft games, i'll just have this to tell you, WHO the frelling heck named'em "rpg's" since there are no "role's" to play, they are wonderful semi cinematic adventure games, kinda like a interactive movie, but they are not ROLE playing games.
same thing with the BG/IWD/NWN/Krynn/EOB series, and other AD&D based computer games, although not sure about NWN, and BG2 did have some rudimentary allowance for rp'ing, (since you COULD be evil, the game just got practicly impossible if you tried.) but my definition of a role playing game, demands that you...
#1 have a actual character, and not just a set of stats and a change of names(can be done in most of those systems with some imagination),
#2 have choices that changes the storyline on a deeper level then "hmm, wich weapon should i use to kill this monster?", or to put it bluntly, alternate endings depending on player actions, some of the squaresoft games(namely the better ones) did have this, read chrono trigger, but it did not have a character, see rule #1.
#3 semi intelligent(or atleast a resemblence of such) character interaction, once again BG2 stands out, especialy due to the romance stories....but BG2 falls on rule #2
#4 different ways of accomplishing the task, in the real world, most problems can be solved in several ways, fallout(and BG2 on some occasions.) shows some nice ways of doing this, try it and you will understand....after a while atleast.
these are some basic things that defines 'roleplaying', the only game i have played that actualy covers all these "basic" things is the fallout series, not that it is perfect, far from it, but it's the best i have tried.
mister white fire fox, dont try to lecture me on rpg's, i have played my share of 'so called' rpg's, and i actualy like'em, i just call'em adventure games(or perhaps more accurately, 'epic quest games'), i have also played quite abit of Pen&Paper rpg's in my time, or similar things....what i am coming down to, it's not that i call the FF style games bad games(even though the quality imho has taken a drastic turn for the worse after #6, or 3 if you follow the english counting.), i just dont call'em RPG's.
//discord
-
whitefirefox
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: none of your business
:rolleyes: well aren't we picky? besides everyone has a different definition of roleplaying my own is putting yourself in the shoes of the charecter(s) you are playing to act like them isntead of yourself and if you want a game with "multiple endings and ways around objectives" then get arcanum: of magik and steam works obscura
P.S. fink!
P.S. fink!
"Jumpjets out of fuel? ........Oh crap...." (last words of my whitefirefox jock :p)
-
whitefirefox
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: none of your business
-
Korgmeister
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Geh, this is turning into an ugly flame war indeed.
I think, though, it's an interesting example of how ugly it gets when the conflicting ideologies of art and marketing clash.
Marketing: Make money by giving people what they want.
Art: Make what I like and what I believe people really need.
Both are very worthy and important attitudes, but it seems almost impossible to strike some sort of balance between them. Most of the stuff I've liked in films, art and music has been stuff labeled as 'self indulgent'.
This is one of the reasons I liked ToS. It was a freeware project, and since it wasn't meant to make money, Larkin and co could make what they bloody well liked.
However, now that they're working on a commercial product, there is a great slew of people giving their 2 cents on what oughta be in it. I don't mind that, but what I don't like is some people's insistence that their idea simply MUST be accepted, even if a similar idea has been given a fair hearing before and was rejected, or if an explanation has been given.
Look, fact is AFAIK, Larkin is still working as a Sysadmin and coding WS in his spare time, hoping that it'll sell well enough that he'll be able to live off it and make the next build full time.
Now I can imagine that's a real bugger of a thing to do and is probably stressing him out, so the last thing he needs is someone coming in and telling him how to build his game unless they are an employee of Matrix Games, OK.
There's nothing wrong with suggestions, but just remember, Larkin is the professional here, and his judgement about what is and is not good for the game should be final.
Sorry if I get a bit hot under the collar about this, but I had to put up with this sort of chronic disrespect back at Home of the Underdogs, and I've got no time for people who make the lives of webmasters, forum admins, freeware game programmers etc more stressful than they already are, OK.
I have seen too many promising creative projects die because of the abusive behaviour of so-called 'fans' and their agressive peddling of their own interpretation of an artist's work.
It screwed up Pink Floyd, it screwed up Impulse Tracker, and I don't want to see it screw up Titans of Steel!
I think, though, it's an interesting example of how ugly it gets when the conflicting ideologies of art and marketing clash.
Marketing: Make money by giving people what they want.
Art: Make what I like and what I believe people really need.
Both are very worthy and important attitudes, but it seems almost impossible to strike some sort of balance between them. Most of the stuff I've liked in films, art and music has been stuff labeled as 'self indulgent'.
This is one of the reasons I liked ToS. It was a freeware project, and since it wasn't meant to make money, Larkin and co could make what they bloody well liked.
However, now that they're working on a commercial product, there is a great slew of people giving their 2 cents on what oughta be in it. I don't mind that, but what I don't like is some people's insistence that their idea simply MUST be accepted, even if a similar idea has been given a fair hearing before and was rejected, or if an explanation has been given.
Look, fact is AFAIK, Larkin is still working as a Sysadmin and coding WS in his spare time, hoping that it'll sell well enough that he'll be able to live off it and make the next build full time.
Now I can imagine that's a real bugger of a thing to do and is probably stressing him out, so the last thing he needs is someone coming in and telling him how to build his game unless they are an employee of Matrix Games, OK.
There's nothing wrong with suggestions, but just remember, Larkin is the professional here, and his judgement about what is and is not good for the game should be final.
Sorry if I get a bit hot under the collar about this, but I had to put up with this sort of chronic disrespect back at Home of the Underdogs, and I've got no time for people who make the lives of webmasters, forum admins, freeware game programmers etc more stressful than they already are, OK.
I have seen too many promising creative projects die because of the abusive behaviour of so-called 'fans' and their agressive peddling of their own interpretation of an artist's work.
It screwed up Pink Floyd, it screwed up Impulse Tracker, and I don't want to see it screw up Titans of Steel!
Korgmeister - Mad scientist of pessimistic ToS design and unluckiest ToS player in history.
Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light
Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light
-
PrinceCorrin
- Posts: 299
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Bossier City, Louisiana
- Contact:
BTW, the whole tournament thing was not made up. It is the actual premise of the original ToS game, which is what you have access to. I'm sure Iceman has the background story for it somewhere.
Just trying to be helpful.
Been here awhile you know.
Just trying to be helpful.
Been here awhile you know.
I see your lips moving, but all I hear is: Blah Blah Blah, I'm a friggin moron.
WFF: how many? honestly dont know, i have tried just about everyone i have gotten my grubby hands on since i started with comps/consoles, wich is ten years ago, and i am pretty **** good at getting my hands on stuff i want...but i can start off.
Final Fantasy (played 4-10, although 10 not very extensively, enough to understand the system, and game idea though.)
(why bother, i have tried every last square soft game in existance, just about, INCLUDING the car game.)
phantasy star 1-4(not online), and a fanmade PS game.
(okey, i admit, tried just about EVERY so called rpg for nintendo/sega systems...should i start with the PSX(PlayStation) games now? tried just about every one of those to, although ONLY those that have been translated to english)
Baldurs Gate1&2 did not actualy like em, not finished either.
seen enough of Ice wind dale to know enough about, it's just BG with a tad bit more reality.
really disliked the elder scrolls games(daggerfall/morrowind) to **** buggy, and to easy to exploit.
Never Winter Nights, actualy not played it, but a friend of mine that usualy dont care about such called it a dungeon crawl, and with some acid in his voice, so i'll take his word for it. very nice gfx though.
Azure Dreams(PSX version), a rather nice dungeon crawl, with some nice char interaction, boring as hell after a while though.
Fallout1&2, nice games, nice atmosphere, the game system is kinda lacking though, to easy to get super strong due to weapon statstics being WAY wrong(for instance, did you know a sledge hammer was a better weapon then a 10mm handgun?)
oh, just saw Plane scape torment lying over there, not to forget it.
and arcanum over there....
i know i have forgotten to mention ALOT of games here....but honestly, i just dont remember them straight up...and the only game here that i actualy call a RPG, is fallout. the rest although good games, do not allow for char freedom of action, and fallout is kinda limited aswell....but as i said, the best i have seen.
hope that answers your question, or do you want me to add all the Pen&Paper systems i have played aswell? that will be another rather lengthy list....
korg: after thinking it through i managed to get it down to prolly being able to make a dos script outside of ToS that could do the job i wanted....so, the rest is just brain storming like a small scale tornado.
corrin: ah, well...personaly i would like millitary campaigns....not that i will be getting it unless i make my own, or so it would seem...but i could work with tournaments to....
//discord
Final Fantasy (played 4-10, although 10 not very extensively, enough to understand the system, and game idea though.)
(why bother, i have tried every last square soft game in existance, just about, INCLUDING the car game.)
phantasy star 1-4(not online), and a fanmade PS game.
(okey, i admit, tried just about EVERY so called rpg for nintendo/sega systems...should i start with the PSX(PlayStation) games now? tried just about every one of those to, although ONLY those that have been translated to english)
Baldurs Gate1&2 did not actualy like em, not finished either.
seen enough of Ice wind dale to know enough about, it's just BG with a tad bit more reality.
really disliked the elder scrolls games(daggerfall/morrowind) to **** buggy, and to easy to exploit.
Never Winter Nights, actualy not played it, but a friend of mine that usualy dont care about such called it a dungeon crawl, and with some acid in his voice, so i'll take his word for it. very nice gfx though.
Azure Dreams(PSX version), a rather nice dungeon crawl, with some nice char interaction, boring as hell after a while though.
Fallout1&2, nice games, nice atmosphere, the game system is kinda lacking though, to easy to get super strong due to weapon statstics being WAY wrong(for instance, did you know a sledge hammer was a better weapon then a 10mm handgun?)
oh, just saw Plane scape torment lying over there, not to forget it.
and arcanum over there....
i know i have forgotten to mention ALOT of games here....but honestly, i just dont remember them straight up...and the only game here that i actualy call a RPG, is fallout. the rest although good games, do not allow for char freedom of action, and fallout is kinda limited aswell....but as i said, the best i have seen.
hope that answers your question, or do you want me to add all the Pen&Paper systems i have played aswell? that will be another rather lengthy list....
korg: after thinking it through i managed to get it down to prolly being able to make a dos script outside of ToS that could do the job i wanted....so, the rest is just brain storming like a small scale tornado.
corrin: ah, well...personaly i would like millitary campaigns....not that i will be getting it unless i make my own, or so it would seem...but i could work with tournaments to....
//discord
Like PC said, in ToS battles are fought in combat arenas, by teams of jocks released from prison to fight for their freedom. The only official background is that in the readme file that comes with the manual. As that was just a draft, which was supposed to be elaborated on later but never came to be, I wrote a short story about the "ambiance" of a ToS match - it is *not* however official, it's just a story of my own creation!
In WS, things have changed. The setting is now a military one, you play the part of a mercenary commander with your own unit, and you fight "real" battles, hire personnel, etc. There's a map editor, but like Larkin said, it will not be available for release date.
For those who want more "flesh" in their characters, why don't you try putting your brain to work on things that really put up a fight, like writing stories about your battles? Fill it up with details, to create ambiance. It used to work in the good old days in the old forum.
Sheesh, nowadays everyone is a programmer, everyone wants to rip other games to fit their tastes. Everyone wants to show they can do it, wether they're actually gonna play the game for real or not. I'm kinda tired of that crap.
In WS, things have changed. The setting is now a military one, you play the part of a mercenary commander with your own unit, and you fight "real" battles, hire personnel, etc. There's a map editor, but like Larkin said, it will not be available for release date.
For those who want more "flesh" in their characters, why don't you try putting your brain to work on things that really put up a fight, like writing stories about your battles? Fill it up with details, to create ambiance. It used to work in the good old days in the old forum.
Sheesh, nowadays everyone is a programmer, everyone wants to rip other games to fit their tastes. Everyone wants to show they can do it, wether they're actually gonna play the game for real or not. I'm kinda tired of that crap.
Iceman
All in all its very easy : ToS is ToS. Nothing else. It has its strength
and weaknesses. Play it as intended and you might find something worth continue playing.
IMHO ToS has two strong points : Balance and Depth.
Its as chess but more complex. Try to read the map, your titans/jocks and the opposition and get a strategy which might lead to victory. We have improved the AI to a point that it will win in a simple stationary sluggfest in open terrain with equal levels. During my test games I recognized that you have to
optimize your team to be successfull against the AI.
I noticed that a good tactic is to stay in forrest cover and just sit it out so I improved the AIs capability to light those woods or to stay in cover itself.
I'm a player who loves to be offensive but if you choose a defensive approach you are more likely to win. Its hard to code an AI which can handle this but I think same goes for any 3D shooter. Camping might be successfull but it bores me to death.
and weaknesses. Play it as intended and you might find something worth continue playing.
IMHO ToS has two strong points : Balance and Depth.
Its as chess but more complex. Try to read the map, your titans/jocks and the opposition and get a strategy which might lead to victory. We have improved the AI to a point that it will win in a simple stationary sluggfest in open terrain with equal levels. During my test games I recognized that you have to
optimize your team to be successfull against the AI.
I noticed that a good tactic is to stay in forrest cover and just sit it out so I improved the AIs capability to light those woods or to stay in cover itself.
I'm a player who loves to be offensive but if you choose a defensive approach you are more likely to win. Its hard to code an AI which can handle this but I think same goes for any 3D shooter. Camping might be successfull but it bores me to death.
-
whitefirefox
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: none of your business
Discord: alright your obviously one of those people who looks for one specific thing in a game and if its not there you think its obviously sucky so lemme ask you this............why did yo ueven bother buying most of those games for console and pc if you KNOW that they will almost all have none of what your looking for? i seriously don't understand the theories behind the "play to win" and the "has to be this way" players and i probably never will understand because i play to enjoy myself and i can do so by playing virtually any game wether it be flight sim sport strategy rpg fps or whatever i play to play and have fun mabey you should take my approach to games discord it makes the whole industry look alot nicer and almost all games alot more fun especcialy games with such an active group of people like ToS has which makes it even more so fun but hey you don't need to listen to me you can keep going and buying those games then tossing them in a closet or draw or whatever and forgetting about them because they don't have that one specific thing (as for the topic of this flame war im out im sick of this discord just doesn't seem to get that games were made for fun)
"Jumpjets out of fuel? ........Oh crap...." (last words of my whitefirefox jock :p)
Ok, I really am a programmer. I do C++, BASIC, and Mirc scripting. (I suck at C++, as of right now). I did make a little tic tac toe game in C++ that needs more features, but i dont wanna work on it... I also DM a pencil&paper D&D group over mirc.(Wheel of Time thing) Most of my mirc scripting went into simplifying levelling of chars, simplification of battle, and simplification of editing characters. Made some other misc stuff, that doesnt relate to that, but its all small... I have not had any formal training, so I cant actually show you degrees or anything, just my programs.
That said, I understand the difficulty of programming new things. (mirc scripting is somehow very easy though...) Especially inserting new things into existing programs. Its a bit difficult to interface programs with each other (my mirc D&D thing all interface with each other, its rather ingenious, if i may say so) more so if you arent using stuff you made with your own hands. I assume you didnt program ToS from complete scratch. (used libraries made before you started) I understand the importance of balance.
I have also played an online game where the devs paid almost no attention whatsoever to the people who played it. All they said was basically "Soon, that change will be added, just wait" with varying degrees of fanciness. It had 1000 players on a one time, which was its peak. Then people realized they werent getting any sort of voice in it (was beta at the time) so pop dropped to 800, then for some reason, they went p2p and pop dropped to about 200 (including guests, who could play but couldnt save anything. They also didnt pay.) To keep from being sued or something, I wont mention its name. So far, what I see hear, the devs are listening, taking suggestions, and assessing what they can do before answering. Thats good.
The only bump so far is that when they put their foot down, they MEAN it. (which i suppose could be ok, after all, THEY are the ones in control...) Also they arent currently updating the current version, but thats cuz they're vastly redoing it to make it into just about a whole new game. (BTW, i saw the WS screens, i just have to say SWEET!, I WILL BUY!!)
THAT said, I think suggestions have their place, but you really shouldnt argue with the devs. About the hoverjet, it sounds interesting, but i wont expect it till devs say so. It sounds like alot of coding necessary. mmm.... suddenly my mind went *poof* I cant think of what i was gonna type... so bye.
That said, I understand the difficulty of programming new things. (mirc scripting is somehow very easy though...) Especially inserting new things into existing programs. Its a bit difficult to interface programs with each other (my mirc D&D thing all interface with each other, its rather ingenious, if i may say so) more so if you arent using stuff you made with your own hands. I assume you didnt program ToS from complete scratch. (used libraries made before you started) I understand the importance of balance.
I have also played an online game where the devs paid almost no attention whatsoever to the people who played it. All they said was basically "Soon, that change will be added, just wait" with varying degrees of fanciness. It had 1000 players on a one time, which was its peak. Then people realized they werent getting any sort of voice in it (was beta at the time) so pop dropped to 800, then for some reason, they went p2p and pop dropped to about 200 (including guests, who could play but couldnt save anything. They also didnt pay.) To keep from being sued or something, I wont mention its name. So far, what I see hear, the devs are listening, taking suggestions, and assessing what they can do before answering. Thats good.
The only bump so far is that when they put their foot down, they MEAN it. (which i suppose could be ok, after all, THEY are the ones in control...) Also they arent currently updating the current version, but thats cuz they're vastly redoing it to make it into just about a whole new game. (BTW, i saw the WS screens, i just have to say SWEET!, I WILL BUY!!)THAT said, I think suggestions have their place, but you really shouldnt argue with the devs. About the hoverjet, it sounds interesting, but i wont expect it till devs say so. It sounds like alot of coding necessary. mmm.... suddenly my mind went *poof* I cant think of what i was gonna type... so bye.
Just so that everyone knows and there are no misunderstandings, a few months back Larkin came up with this new piece of equipment called Speed Actuators. As you might have guessed, they increased the speed of a titan they were installed to. It didn't make it to the game.
So, about suggestions, you have to take into account that most of what is asked for has already been thought by the kreators, or has already been asked for in the past. Also, some suggestions haven't been fully thought out, or have implications that only Larkin can assess, and so they can't be implemented.
So, about suggestions, you have to take into account that most of what is asked for has already been thought by the kreators, or has already been asked for in the past. Also, some suggestions haven't been fully thought out, or have implications that only Larkin can assess, and so they can't be implemented.
Iceman
thorgrim: at this time i dont expect it to make it into 2.0(or WS wichever term you prefer), most of what i was saying is for 3.0, or the next big release, so for the moment i am just shooting the breeze here....actualy atm. most things that will go into 2.0 is already decided, and any changes that will be made will most likely be very minor(like some more weapons, wich is basicly just adding another line in a data base thingy, forgetting about game balancing ofcourse.)
there, that been said, let the total looniness continue!
//discord
there, that been said, let the total looniness continue!
//discord
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Adding weapons is not just another line in a database thingy like you put it, as I'm sure Larkin will tell you. Balance issues have to be considered. The new weapons that were added to WS (yes, they were already added), took quite some time to test and balance. I know this, I'm not just throwing it into the air. Other "minor" things like balancing chassis and armor and ammo have also been done or are in the process of testing. Things that are effectively important.
Iceman
-
whitefirefox
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: none of your business
