Sweep vs Escorts

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: dr.diplodocus
i never said strato sweeps don't work, then only thing I've been saying is that stratosweeps are gamey.

Some people say they don't work which is why I tested it. That would include you given you took affront to me saying that altitude is all that matters - pretty much this actually is the case, though some people prefer to take it on faith that it isn't.

Problem is if you don't do it you die. The only fair house rule is one where both sides are limited to the same altitude, but that's not really fair, as you'll find P38s getting 1:1 with Oscars if they can't get the bounce which is also ahistorical, again. Problem not solved. I considered the various house rule options and none of them are good IMHO. Therefore for now, I prefer no house rules on the subject, but would rather it be fixed.

Besides, a house rule wouldn't sort out the irrelevance of maneuver bands, which I would like to enjoy the nuances of.

This is kinda new too because I remember in WITP that altitude didn't matter nearly as much as this, and maneuver rating seemed to matter a lot more. Remember the Zero bonus? Those +5 points seemed to make a hell of a difference.

the number of posts has nothing to do with it... Not making tons of posts doesn't imply ignorance...

Quite, but in just the same way you making assertions doesn't make them true.

[dr.diplodocus]

green button me.. i dont care, it won't hurt my feelings.
this statement makes me a troll? so make sure you know your shi* before you end up making youself look like a dumbass
I'm a troll when I quote TheElf, if i understand correctly the designer of the air portion of the game?
hardly a troll, but better a troll than someone who hides from others they don't agree with.

[dr.diplodocus]

the only thing I asserted was
1:you fly for the kill ratios, but then I also said nobody is stopping you from playing that way.
2: strato sweeps are gamey
3: Bradley is a dumbass for jumping on my back because i quoted theElf and didnt "respect the elders" when he thought I was a green new commer.
I never once thought i was infalliable. just because i don't believe in strato sweeping doesnt make a troll, or ignorant though.

this was civil before people started throwing out troll and ignorant.

I didnt call you ignorant or a troll because i didn't agree with you. but i guess that happens when people think having more posts implies that they are somehow more important.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

EUBanana the combat report files are not surprising.

You compare two airframes that can compete with each other on roughly equal terms, both planes still perform at high altitude,
you are using relatively equal numbers of opposing planes and do not use large enough numbers for effective split CAP.

The results are similar to what I would have expect them to. What is your conclusion from this that so differs from what I am describing?

My point is that being above the enemy is by far and away the most significant factor assuming you got two roughly comparable aircraft. I imagine with Buffaloes even with the bounce they'll be nailed (might be a fun test though, never assume ).

And really maneuver bands don't seem to have much of a discernable impact at all. I'm sure they are being considered somewhere in the code but it looks like that consideration is quite minor. Which is likely fair enough, speed wins, and altitude can be turned into speed, but it looks to me like altitude is just too much of a modifier, it's swamping everything else.

I bet you if I ran the tests with P40Ks instead you wouldn't see any real difference at high altitude even though the K's high altitude performance is out of all proportion to the E. Such is my experience of using P40Ks in game.

This is why you have stratosweeps. The most significant factor by far is altitude, therefore you fly as high as you can. It's a race to the top. There is no disadvantage in doing so, you can engage bombers at 5k feet quite easily with CAP at 35,000'. The idea of maneuver bands I think is really cool but it's lost in the noise - there's no reason to mess about finding altitude bands of maximum comparative advantage, it might have an effect but it just gets lost in the bigger modifier of being below the foe.

So the game is made less deep as a result - there is no consideration to make when setting fighter altitude. Set it to max, unless you are escorting. Also, it's ahistoric, though I'm less bothered about that to be honest than I am about all that data painstakingly entered with altitude bands being consigned to irrelevance, I'd rather it mattered.

Yes but I never said anything else. Why shouldn´t altitude be the dominant factor? It is in reality. So what is the issue?

I disagree with your conclusion though, that alt bands have no impact because of this.

If you lack the max altitude to compete in that regard the solution is for sure not to try at least to get at 2k feet below your opponent but at the altitude with the best performance delta.
Flying your Buffaloes at max cant protect you from a dive from Zeke´s.
For similar reasons its alway nicer if you can mix different airframs in one situation. More options.

So take the dive and go there where you at least can stand a bit of a fight, as long as numbers make this option unusable.

When number prevent this, you have to pull back. That was in RL the case as it is in the game.

This is not lack of depth. [;)]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

speaking of speed "being considered", isn't the AAR between FatR and Yubari a modified scenario? i.e., aren't the japanese fighter speeds adjusted up?

No, in Scen 70 they aren't.

from first post in Yubari's AAR...[&:] maybe not significant...

Other advantages that Japan receives are a reorganisation of the carriers to be built. Out goes the Taiho and Shinano, these are replaced by three enhanced Shokaku class carriers, to come in at various points during 1943. Japan also gets a couple of extra heavy and light cruisers as well as two extra battlecruisers. Another big change is that Japan gets better AA guns for their ships later in the game. Japanese naval fighters arrive earlier than in stock as well, and are faster. Finally, Japanese army fighters gain from small speed increases.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: dr.diplodocus

you have it all wrong. here's what you posted

25k feet = 4 losses each
20k feet = 3 losses each
15k feet = 3 losses each
10k feet = 3 losses each
5k feet = 2 P40s lost, 3 Zeroes lost
100' = 8 P40s lost, 0 Zeroes lost

Clearly at 5k, loosing 2 P40s will always be better than loosing 4. Just like flying a plane will be better where the MVR is 20s and 30s insted of a number in the low in the low 10s. If you want to loose less fighters you be smart with them and use them where they can get more kills than they lost, not send them up to 20k where they loose 4 in the process of shooting down 4. A fighter on rest is a wasted fighter.

All the tests show is that you'd rather use planes in an gamey un-historical manner just to try to get the most kills, not play the game how its supposed to be played. Anyone can be gamey, its not hard. people knock on the AI saying, its predictable, but so are humans.

"Feel free to harp on altitude but is not the ONLY thing that matters. You clearly make this statement out of pure ignorance of the code. Not your fault, but let's be clear that you do not have a whit's knowledge of the inner workings of the game."

dear dr.,
typically when one "quotes" someone else, they refer to whom they are quoting...if you had noted that this last paragraph was TheElf's quote it would probably have reduced the flammage in here...peace...

[Kwik E Mart]

did anyone ever answer the OP? is there a penalty for escorts? or no penalty and just a sweep bonus? or maybe not a sweep bonus, but a better chance for "bounce" the higher they sweep? the world wonders...

all this speculation on the "black box" that is the air-to-air algorithms seems pointless sometimes...we may just never know all the variables and relationships...however, gamers have a deep rooted desire to understand the mechanics so that they can improve their play...we may have to eventually accept the fact that the developers wanted us to learn just like they did in real life...thru experience...how frustrating [8D]

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

did anyone ever answer the OP? is there a penalty for escorts? or no penalty and just a sweep bonus? or maybe not a sweep bonus, but a better chance for "bounce" the higher they sweep? the world wonders...

all this speculation on the "black box" that is the air-to-air algorithms seems pointless sometimes...we may just never know all the variables and relationships...however, gamers have a deep rooted desire to understand the mechanics so that they can improve their play...we may have to eventually accept the fact that the developers wanted us to learn just like they did in real life...thru experience...how frustrating [8D]

Yes ther is a bonus for CAP over escort and for sweep over CAP. It is small but not insignificant. It often gets enhanced by the fact that the player on the offensive is so
because of his better assets. Nothing special I think.


Thats one of the best sentences I have read lately in this forum.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

did anyone ever answer the OP? is there a penalty for escorts? or no penalty and just a sweep bonus? or maybe not a sweep bonus, but a better chance for "bounce" the higher they sweep? the world wonders...

In my experience, in terms of effectiveness, the order is

Escort < CAP < Sweep

Escorts are vastly inferior to CAP, sweeps are slightly superior to CAP, possibly only very slightly superior. I've not seen huge "sweep bonuses" myself.

Altitude seems to very much be the dominant factor in CAP vs sweep. Not sure with escorts, they are almost always lower than the CAP anyway in my game because they are with the bombers and the bombers rarely go above 15k feet.

all this speculation on the "black box" that is the air-to-air algorithms seems pointless sometimes...we may just never know all the variables and relationships...however, gamers have a deep rooted desire to understand the mechanics so that they can improve their play...we may have to eventually accept the fact that the developers wanted us to learn just like they did in real life...thru experience...how frustrating [8D]

Well, white box testing isn't even necessarily the best approach to analysis of a complex system. Sometimes in fact it is almost impossible. Even if I wrote the code myself I might be none the wiser as to what works well when actually played. I might have some very educated guesses but only actually trying it out will reveal the results for sure.

Software developers do not decide when a product is working, software testers do that.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

did anyone ever answer the OP? is there a penalty for escorts? or no penalty and just a sweep bonus? or maybe not a sweep bonus, but a better chance for "bounce" the higher they sweep? the world wonders...

In my experience, in terms of effectiveness, the order is

Escort < CAP < Sweep

understood...but is this because Escort is usually lower than CAP and CAP is usually lower than Sweep and in these cases there is usually more chance for "bounce"? or is there something more at play here?

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
understood...but is this because Escort is usually lower than CAP and CAP is usually lower than Sweep and in these cases there is usually more chance for "bounce"? or is there something more at play here?

I think escort is penalised in particular, escorts usually get slaughtered. It's a high risk maneuver for the fighters.

But what you say is certainly a factor too. As I say, altitude trumps all, quite possibly even escorts. However, as you're not going to achieve anything by bombing higher than 25,000', it's pretty much a moot point.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This is not lack of depth. [;)]

God stats are generally considered to be a lack of depth. God stats with a whole bunch of other immaculately stuff is just spurious.

I mean, I do try to fly the P40s, knowing I can't get the bounce, at a good altitude. I also know it makes no difference. It's kinda like sticking a bit of lucky heather up in the cockpit.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Some stratosweeps, restarting the game each time. Tallies taken from air losses alone (no ops) underneath each and so can assumed to be accurate.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 117 minutes


P40s 2, Zeroes 1

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1

Here is what I find to be decisive about this test. No one seems to have consider the impact of what I have bolded above...no...pretty clear that CAP does not have the benefit of radar here. whatr

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: dr.diplodocus

green button me.. i dont care, it won't hurt my feelings.
this statement makes me a troll? so make sure you know your shi* before you end up making youself look like a dumbass
I'm a troll when I quote TheElf, if i understand correctly the designer of the air portion of the game?
hardly a troll, but better a troll than someone who hides from others they don't agree with.

No, but being a troll is being abrasive and attempting to incite a flame war. I just won't participate. You can reply however you wish to this, I won't see it or respond past this point. I'm not fool enough to be dragged into such a situation.

Besides the fact that you have resorted to foul language and insults speaks volumes.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Someone suggested they'd lose less aircraft at 5000' (de Nile isn't just a river in Egypt you know [;)]), so lets try that out.

Same situation as above, again, I restarted the game for each test.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes



P40s 1, Zeroes 3


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes



P40s 1, Zeroes 3

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes



P40s 1, Zeroes 3


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes



P40s 1, Zeroes 3

Not sure what this test is supposed to show...Sweeping Zeroes from the sky below 10k' is a good idea?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Some stratosweeps, restarting the game each time. Tallies taken from air losses alone (no ops) underneath each and so can assumed to be accurate.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 117 minutes


P40s 2, Zeroes 1

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 16, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kiska Island , at 157,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
452 Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 77 minutes



P40s 4, Zeroes 1

Here is what I find to be decisive about this test. No one seems to have consider the impact of what I have bolded above...no...pretty clear that CAP does not have the benefit of radar here. whatr

Radar would account for lopsided results. Easy to pick off fighters if you see them but they can't see you.

On the other hand, with so few scrambled it can also be a good thing...fewer planes airborne to get swept.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Not sure what this test is supposed to show...Sweeping Zeroes from the sky below 10k' is a good idea?

It just shows that altitude is the priority. It's always best to be above the enemy, the maneuver bands are very much secondary. If you try sweeping at the altitude at which you perform best you will lose - it's better to just be as high as possible, all the time. Thats why so many people are getting into these stratospheric battles, there's no penalty for doing so, and it's always the best tactic, even for aircraft like the P40 which perform poorly at altitude.

The Japs have a single Type 2 radar at Kiska Island if that makes any odds.

The P40s manage to be diving on some Zeroes even sweeping at low level, the odd kill they get they seem to have dived on. I'm not sure if thats new Zeroes trying to launch or Zeroes that dived from 25k feet that find themselves below the P40s after they dive.

[Sardaukar]

BTW, check what is the Defensive skill of the pilots. Maybe trying to train that up for couple of weeks and see how much it has effect on defending against bounce.&nbsp;

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

BTW, check what is the Defensive skill of the pilots. Maybe trying to train that up for couple of weeks and see how much it has effect on defending against bounce. 

The Zeroes have experience 75 on average and the P40s about 55.

Kinda interesting in it own right, as average pilots in an awful plane (maneuver rating 2 when they fight at 25k feet I think, no?) bouncing expert pilots in a good plane whip them.

Well, I only say 'awful' based solely on maneuverability, but it does ram home that relative maneuver ratings seem to be very low down in the list of important things that influence air combat outcomes.

[Sardaukar]

I ment Defensive skill, which, according to The Elf is important surviving the bounce, not general Exp.