Matrix - tell me you're kidding, right?

[JudgeDredd]

mmm...price kept quite for obvious reasons...release a bit of a mess...demo not advertised....now Matrix, you are seriously showing yourselves up here. I've been a fan since 2002 but you are testing at times...

I am/was an avid fan of the engine. You let me down with the price. Now it seems you are not promoting the demo. Seriously...you can only ride the "it's a niche market" without promoting your business for so long before people get wise!

I stumbled across news of the demo on this forum and had to navigate through the site to eventually get to the product page to find news of the DEMO.

Now if you don't want to advertise your products, that's cool. It's your business..but don't tell me I have to pay a premium to keep this niche market going when your advertising strategy seems to be to keep it niche...for a reason? I have no idea.

But considering the flak the release of this game got...and considering the bhacklash yu took from it, wth r u thinking not announcing the demo?

Sorry for the rant...but after the price shock of this product and the nastiness that ensued, it seemed reasonable to think that you might promote the demo![:-]

[gabeeg]

Ever think that they uploaded first...and will be making an announcement later.  My guess is it will be pretty soon.  I have seen them post files before making a splash about availability.  Maybe they are gun shy and doing a slow roll out to make sure it does not blow up with new introduced bugs...   I am curious (not being sassy here...at all) why you find it upsetting if they did not advertise the demo yet? 
 
P.S.  I also gave them grief about the price...and to be honest I am still not decided whether it is worth the price (for me)...waiting patiently for the patch.  It is a slick game and lots of great ideas in it.  It currently has too many issues for me and I have not put in enough game time to make a final judgement.

[Sheytan]

The game premise is novel. You will rarely find a operational art type wargame in which the chain of command and the associated factors that influence such are modeled. Frankly the detractors of this title have beat Panther Games head in. Nothing more to be said, the product was perhaps incorrectly influenced by hype, from not only customers, HUGE RED FLAG, for me, but the replys regarding the pricing model from the Panther Games folks themselves was a bit elitist in itself.
 
All of these factors contributed to a "kick it while it is down" mentality when faults became apparent. I myself in retrospect couldnt help but salt the wounds when the failures of the title became manifest. Cant say im proud of my conduct in this respect. I really would like to play this game. I just really really cannot justify the price to myself. However in the context of what the game models it is indeed extraordinary.
 
At any rate the issue for the customer is fairly simple, all things considered will you buy it. Some have, some havnt. I personally like Lemonande on a hot summer day...you may prefer to drink coffee.
 

[gabeeg]

...I like lemonade too...its my favorite.
 
I am still curious about why the lack of advertising the demo (yet) is upsetting to JudgeDredd (I am sure there is a reason that I am overlooking...)

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: gabeeg
...I am curious (not being sassy here...at all) why you find it upsetting if they did not advertise the demo yet? 

Because the whole PR for this game was a bloody shambles that's why. I was very much looking forward to this game and they slapped it out at the price point they did. They knew the price point before - you know they did - and gave no heads up. You can say that was either because it just didn't occur to them that they might piss some people off, or they knew the response they would get and decided to keep it under wraps. I'm going for the second and it pisses me off that they treated me that way.

Second, people have been waiting patiently for a demo (whilst hearing about issues others are having) - I know I've been checking Matrix daily for a demo.

The whole thing has been a PR mess. Not really by problem - so perhaps you're right - perhaps it shouldn't affect me. Perhaps I'm just pissed that I get the impression that
1. keeping the price under wraps
2. increasing the cost of COTA (and I STRONGLY still think that was so they could say BftB is only $20 more)
3. not promoting the demo
4. letting the developer get into a price point fued with members and sounding quite curt and smug about the price and how sales are so good and everyone whinging about it can go busy themselves elsewhere (Dave, I know you didn't say that and I know you didn't mean that, but that's how it came across - and I also know you were personally attacked re the price - but you should still have stayed out of it)

On top of all this, after being told we have to pay a premium for top notch games, there are people still unable to play it because of CTD...

See it how you will. I was a fan of the series. I was a fan of the engine. I had been waiting for years for the follow on to CotA. I was a fan of Matrix. But the whole sorry saga revolving around this gae and the way it's release, promotion and how we were kept in the dark re the price left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Regardless...I won't be back in this forum anytime soon.

Take care all and good luck with the game.

[Arjuna]

JudgeDredd,

I am very sorry that you are so upset. But I do think you are overreacting re the demo. Putting it up for download without a public announcement is a mistake, pure and simple. I don't know why this happened. I gave the go ahead for the demo late on Thursday night. I can only conclude that one hand didn't talk to the other at Matrix. But I really do not see this as such a foobar. I am sure we will see an announcement in the next few days. It is a weekend after all.

As to your other points, this is just going over ground we covered before ad nauseum in the Price thread. Just for the record let me reiterate that the price of COTA went up last year because of the significant deterioration in the USD/AUD exhange rate. This has been a long term trend with the Aussie dollar strengthening due to the strong Australian economy and the fairly weak US economy. We had held off raising the price for a long, long time but just couldn't afford to do so any longer. It wasn't a Matrix decision it was mine.

As to not advising the price before release, yes that was a mistake and one that I hope will not be repeated. There were reasons why this happened including the fact that we only signed the publishing agreement with Matrix a few days before the release and the price point was one of the issues holding it up. I am not at liberety to go any further re those commercial in confidence matters. Suffice to say that yes we should have finalised matters well ahead and announced the rise in price beforehand. We will endeavour to do better.

And Judge you are definitely right in that I did not say those things in your fourth point. The written word can often be misinterpreted depending on one's own filters and perceptions. And to say that I should not have made any comments in that debate is to ignore that I would then be accused of gross arrogance in ignoring everyone. Either way someone who is aggrieved enough would have ammunition to fling at me. On balance I stated the facts and our position as dispationately as I could and I still believe that this was the best thing to do.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
4. letting the developer get into a price point fued with members and sounding quite curt and smug about the price and how sales are so good and everyone whinging about it can go busy themselves elsewhere

Why shouldn't they? Why would anyone want to work for less if they get enough work for more?

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
On top of all this, after being told we have to pay a premium for top notch games, there are people still unable to play it because of CTD...

Yeah, it kills the point of buying expensive stuff. I guess, it's best to wait until it gets fully patched.

[billyjj]

News flash... probably 95% of the people that were going to buy this game already did, why should they rush a demo out for 5% that probably won't buy the game anyway. Don't get mad at the developer get mad at your fellow forum members that were so anxious to spend 80 dollars on an un-demoed OVER HYPED piece of crap game that crashes to desktop and is full of bugs.

[MorningDew]

My personal opinion...these comments are emotional, irrational and just plain silly rants.

The game is a great game. It has its issues (and I've had them) but I'm still enjoying the heck out of the game and everyone who knows Panther Games seems to have no question that the issues will be fixed.

With all my gaming experience, I would have bet money that it would take a few patches to get everything working. The idea that $20 extra dollars would mean the difference between needing a patch and not needing a patch is irrational (and the outbursts emotional).

[Arjuna]

OK I'm not going to let this descend into another rehash of the Price thread. I'll keep this thread open for JD to respond, if he wishes. In the meantime, let's leave what's said as said and that will do for now.

[Erik Rutins]

The demo download should not have showed up before the official announcement tomorrow. Obviously a slight sync issue there which we'll fix, but I believe the original poster overreacted.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The demo download should not have showed up before the official announcement tomorrow. Obviously a slight sync issue there which we'll fix, but I believe the original poster overreacted.

but I believe the original poster overreacted

Well thanks for that Erik.

Dave - good luck with the engine

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Regardless...I won't be back in this forum anytime soon.

LOL. I didn't think so. But you did stay away just over 24 hours!

[wodin]

BillyJJ,

I never knew you bought the game?

I have it and it is no way a piece of crap.....it's one hell of a wargame....pure and simple....I've only had one problem with a recuring CTD in one scenario which isn't a game breaker for me...I've had some great battles so far and am very, very happy with the game.

[goodwoodrw]

ORIGINAL: billyjj

News flash... probably 95% of the people that were going to buy this game already did, why should they rush a demo out for 5% that probably won't buy the game anyway. Don't get mad at the developer get mad at your fellow forum members that were so anxious to spend 80 dollars on an un-demoed OVER HYPED piece of crap game that crashes to desktop and is full of bugs.

What ever your drinking cobber, keep it away from the kids and missus!!!

[GBS]

Wow...well I am happy to say that I am enjoying the game quite a bit and haven't looked back. I think it will get better and I look forward to the first patch. Thanks again Dave.

[Knavery]

I see Judge's point to a degree, but it doesn't bother me. I've already purchased the game, so the demo is not something I was personally tracking.

Most of us will be happy once we're presented with a much needed patch. But that's the caveat isn't it? For the price we paid, it's gotta be a damn fine product. And if bugs exist in that product, then they should be rectified as soon as possible. I agree this shouldn't turn into another price thread, because there really isn't much more that could be said about it. However, there is a certain level of service that I'm expecting (and I don't think I'm alone) as a result of the boutique-like price we all paid. Economic factors or not, it still hit some of us very hard in the wallet.

In the end, we supported Panther Games and Matrix. I'm hoping they appreciate that (despite some of the negative comments many of us participated in), and provide us with a high level of service. I think that's all we can ask for at this point.  

[Topo]

I quote Knavery.

[RockinHarry]

I was lucky to have downloaded the demo before the official anouncement. Thanks for it! [:)] I´can´t understand the troubles, that are talked about here, but now having dived a lil bit into the game, my plans are pushed favouredly towards buying it at a later time, but I can´t afford to buy it right now. It´s quite a unique game, with whole lots of potential for the future and considering Panther Games a very small company, surely worth every cent they demand from a serious wargamer. [8D]