Illinois Yankee in the Showa Emperor's Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
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- CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Virginia, USA
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
I would say the two most important pieces of real estate for Japan are the DEI and the Home Islands, plus the LOC between them. The LOC can be attacked either through Burma or CentPac/New Guinea. The Home Islands can be attacked through the Aleutians/Kuriles. And the DEI can be attacked from Australia and Ceylon. Operations in the Kuriles/Aleutians seem difficult for the allies and can be readily countered because they are near your home base while far from his. The CentPac route does not require, but would greatly benefit from possession of Pearl Harbor. The CentPac route would also take longer and Canoe seems to be an impatient fellow. Instead, a more decisive and direct route to strangling the empire would seem to be his preference. This points to an offensive against towards the DEI from either Ceylon or Australia.
I think Australia is key here. Imagine a map without Australia. The defense of the empire would be sooooo much easier if there were no Australia. But of course there it is.
So, if you can't sink the continent, you could at least make it harder for the allies to use. Basically, this means limiting the delivery of supply, fuel, aircraft, and troops to the continent. I don't think you can take out Australia completely, but you could deprive it, I think, of the resources needed to make it a launching pad for an offensive against the DEI/New Guinea. This would require cutting the LOC between Australia and the rest of the world. On the east that means at least Noumea and probably New Zealand and Fiji. On the west that means basically Perth. Although there is a large stretch of ocean south of Perth through which the allies can deliver supply to Melbourne, if you own Perth you can patrol those waters to maintain a blockade. As someone pointed out, if you can capture Kalgoolie, then western Australia basically becomes an island; land forces there become less of a problem once they can no longer rail in. It would be relatively easy to supply Perth from the DEI, so maintaining a naval blockade from that base should not be too hard.
I think that taking Perth would give strategic depth to your defense of the DEI and hinder an allied build up aimed at that critical sector. Taking Noumea/Fiji/New Zealand could also lead to that allies spending a portion of late 42/early 43 trying to re-establish an LOC to Australia. It would allow you to concentrate land and air forces in the western DEI to defend again an offensive coming out of India while the KB is tasked with defending the eastern side of the empire in the Pacific.
I think Australia is key here. Imagine a map without Australia. The defense of the empire would be sooooo much easier if there were no Australia. But of course there it is.
So, if you can't sink the continent, you could at least make it harder for the allies to use. Basically, this means limiting the delivery of supply, fuel, aircraft, and troops to the continent. I don't think you can take out Australia completely, but you could deprive it, I think, of the resources needed to make it a launching pad for an offensive against the DEI/New Guinea. This would require cutting the LOC between Australia and the rest of the world. On the east that means at least Noumea and probably New Zealand and Fiji. On the west that means basically Perth. Although there is a large stretch of ocean south of Perth through which the allies can deliver supply to Melbourne, if you own Perth you can patrol those waters to maintain a blockade. As someone pointed out, if you can capture Kalgoolie, then western Australia basically becomes an island; land forces there become less of a problem once they can no longer rail in. It would be relatively easy to supply Perth from the DEI, so maintaining a naval blockade from that base should not be too hard.
I think that taking Perth would give strategic depth to your defense of the DEI and hinder an allied build up aimed at that critical sector. Taking Noumea/Fiji/New Zealand could also lead to that allies spending a portion of late 42/early 43 trying to re-establish an LOC to Australia. It would allow you to concentrate land and air forces in the western DEI to defend again an offensive coming out of India while the KB is tasked with defending the eastern side of the empire in the Pacific.
- Capt. Harlock
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Nemo has repeatedly advocated taking several bases near Hawaii in order to suppress that base. It would achieve almost as much as taking Pearl itself, while requiring quite a lot less in force commitments, allowing you to do this without severely constraining you in your other options.
Nemo has indeed, and I've debated him over it. IMHO, it has to be done before early June. After that, the availability of B-24D's makes it more likely that Pearl will suppress the Japanese airbases rather than the other way around. At this stage of the war, neither the IJAAF nor the IJNAF have fighters that are really effective against the American 4E's.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Nemo has repeatedly advocated taking several bases near Hawaii in order to suppress that base. It would achieve almost as much as taking Pearl itself, while requiring quite a lot less in force commitments, allowing you to do this without severely constraining you in your other options.
Nemo has indeed, and I've debated him over it. IMHO, it has to be done before early June. After that, the availability of B-24D's makes it more likely that Pearl will suppress the Japanese airbases rather than the other way around. At this stage of the war, neither the IJAAF nor the IJNAF have fighters that are really effective against the American 4E's.
RE: Hawaii, keeping Pearl suppressed is a tall order. It's a big airbase with a huge pile of engineers, and even reinforcement engineers that a appear automatically and don't need to be convoyed in.
Establishing airbases around Pearl is very doable. The trick is: Then what? It would take round the clock bombing by ALOT of bombers to keep the airstrip closed. If you stop bombing for just a couple days, the Allies can repair the runway enough to fly off. Getting fighers there isn't a huge deal; they can ferry from CVs. Once the strip is repaired moderately, B-24s can then quash your airbases at will. If you load them up with fighters to counter, that takes away the bombers you need to hit Pearl, and the Bombers you need on Nav Attack to keep the USN away.
I would rather invest those resources in a move on OZ.
Still considering options, but I think I am going either INDIA or OZ. Capngown suggested alternative of isolating OZ, which also has merit.
Decisions......
- Grfin Zeppelin
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Well for India speaks also: capturing Ceylon as a target of opportunity, the possibility to attrit the British on ground and air with the IJA, a good place to chicken out if things go wrong and last you have to defend Burma anyway so why not doing that at Imphal if things go wrong instead of uh Mandalay.
+ you can take northern Australia anyway and very likely the Perth area too if you are fast.
Hawaii might be possible but its imo to much of a risk. You can cripple yourself there if things go horrible wrong.
In Australia its hard to stand compact for you, one has to spread out to much and as you said its easily possible to land behind you. In India one would have to do that through the Bengalen gulf wich is realy a risk if you hold Ceylon. Infact if he does that he might give you the opportunity of a carrier battle under IJAF cover.
And last but not least, its kewl to have India.One can only imagine how Japan holds the world under cultural hostage if Bollywood is a joint Indian/Japanese thing O.O
+ you can take northern Australia anyway and very likely the Perth area too if you are fast.
Hawaii might be possible but its imo to much of a risk. You can cripple yourself there if things go horrible wrong.
In Australia its hard to stand compact for you, one has to spread out to much and as you said its easily possible to land behind you. In India one would have to do that through the Bengalen gulf wich is realy a risk if you hold Ceylon. Infact if he does that he might give you the opportunity of a carrier battle under IJAF cover.
And last but not least, its kewl to have India.One can only imagine how Japan holds the world under cultural hostage if Bollywood is a joint Indian/Japanese thing O.O

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
In case you and CR haven't discussed it, check on the British carriers. Apparently in '44 and or '45 there are two CV's and one CVL that arrive at Colombo and/or Trincomalee. If you capture those bases they are "destroyed while building", even though they are actually in Europe until they arrive. If you haven't fixed the scenario files you might want to consider it when thinking about taking Ceylon.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Combat Report, Dec 20-23, 1941:
PLANS: Good thoughts everyone....I am torn between India and OZ, both have alot to recommend it. I am probably leaning toward OZ, but I probably don't need to final final commit until January.
Malaya: We are marching down the peninsula. Should have invaded Mersing, but oh well.
Borneo/Java: Billiton is almost a size-1 airbase, and can then aircover a landing on Java. Not that I am too concerned with that, as the Dutch can't hit squat. I haven't killed off the Vildebeests, so I do need to account for those. The Stringbags, though, were lost of Kuching.
I have about 400 AV loaded, and heading toward a landing on Java at Kalidjati. This is not enough to clear the island, but I want to split the defenses in two between Soerbaya and Batavia, and establish an air umbrella over Java. That will prevent reinforcements. 400 AV is also way too much for the Dutch to kick out.
Balikpapan: Should fall on the 24th; 3 Nav Gd units are firmly ashore.
Koepang: Landings tommorow
Rabaul: First attack dropped the forts; we need to pause a day or two, and will try again. That should clear it.
INTEL ALERT!: I-168 fired 4 torpedos at ENTERPRISE two hexes off Sydney. They missed, but that firmly establishes the location of the 2 USN CVs that start in the Pacific. Although she missed ENTERPRISE, in another attack she did sink an AO in the same hex; I suppose that TF was refueling.
Dan knows KB is in the Bismarck Sea, so he is not going near the Rabaul landings. Car Div 5, (SORYU, HIRYU), is moving toward Ambon to join with Baby KB, and support landings in Northern OZ. With 2 CV and 2 CVL, I will have enough to handle 2 USN CVs; not Baby KB, more like "KB Jr".
China: Oh yeah, China. I have not mentioned this yet! I am not a big fan of land combat in China, but it's there, so you have to attend to it.
It took a week to shuffle garrisons and round up enough mobile AV to launch an offensive, about 4 Divisions. Another 2 divisions I rounded up for Wenchow. The initial objectives are mostly to tidy up the line: Clear the central plain between Loyang and Nanning, and clear out the Northeast (by compass, Southeast on map) corner.
Dan is evacuating the Wenchow corner on his own; those units are all marching toward Changsha apparently.
He did resist on the Central Plain, and the defenders at Chengchow were rudely handled. A single IJA Division south of town easily routed 4 Chinese Corps plus an HQ, a much larger force. After seeing that, I think he is fleeing open terrain; all units are moving backward.
From experience, the Chinese are very easy to push around in the open, but in rough terrain they toughen up. I plan to at least get to the rough and build an MLR, and maybe continue an offensive somewhere on the map. In the long-run, I just hope to make China stable, and use it for reinforcements.
PLANS: Good thoughts everyone....I am torn between India and OZ, both have alot to recommend it. I am probably leaning toward OZ, but I probably don't need to final final commit until January.
Malaya: We are marching down the peninsula. Should have invaded Mersing, but oh well.
Borneo/Java: Billiton is almost a size-1 airbase, and can then aircover a landing on Java. Not that I am too concerned with that, as the Dutch can't hit squat. I haven't killed off the Vildebeests, so I do need to account for those. The Stringbags, though, were lost of Kuching.
I have about 400 AV loaded, and heading toward a landing on Java at Kalidjati. This is not enough to clear the island, but I want to split the defenses in two between Soerbaya and Batavia, and establish an air umbrella over Java. That will prevent reinforcements. 400 AV is also way too much for the Dutch to kick out.
Balikpapan: Should fall on the 24th; 3 Nav Gd units are firmly ashore.
Koepang: Landings tommorow
Rabaul: First attack dropped the forts; we need to pause a day or two, and will try again. That should clear it.
INTEL ALERT!: I-168 fired 4 torpedos at ENTERPRISE two hexes off Sydney. They missed, but that firmly establishes the location of the 2 USN CVs that start in the Pacific. Although she missed ENTERPRISE, in another attack she did sink an AO in the same hex; I suppose that TF was refueling.
Dan knows KB is in the Bismarck Sea, so he is not going near the Rabaul landings. Car Div 5, (SORYU, HIRYU), is moving toward Ambon to join with Baby KB, and support landings in Northern OZ. With 2 CV and 2 CVL, I will have enough to handle 2 USN CVs; not Baby KB, more like "KB Jr".
China: Oh yeah, China. I have not mentioned this yet! I am not a big fan of land combat in China, but it's there, so you have to attend to it.
It took a week to shuffle garrisons and round up enough mobile AV to launch an offensive, about 4 Divisions. Another 2 divisions I rounded up for Wenchow. The initial objectives are mostly to tidy up the line: Clear the central plain between Loyang and Nanning, and clear out the Northeast (by compass, Southeast on map) corner.
Dan is evacuating the Wenchow corner on his own; those units are all marching toward Changsha apparently.
He did resist on the Central Plain, and the defenders at Chengchow were rudely handled. A single IJA Division south of town easily routed 4 Chinese Corps plus an HQ, a much larger force. After seeing that, I think he is fleeing open terrain; all units are moving backward.
From experience, the Chinese are very easy to push around in the open, but in rough terrain they toughen up. I plan to at least get to the rough and build an MLR, and maybe continue an offensive somewhere on the map. In the long-run, I just hope to make China stable, and use it for reinforcements.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
China, can you resource bomb? Turn their asset, their numbers, into their biggest deficit. That solution has an appealing elegance about it.
Hmm, you seem to be treating Hawaii and Oz and India as though they a operations requiring a similar investment. I think that while Oz and India are somewhat analogous Hawaii is a completely different issue.
Hawaii needs a very different force structure than either Oz or India and requires very little land forces and only a modest investment in terms of shipping and naval aviation. If you can find 500AV and divert KB for some time you can take e necessary bases around Hawaii in order to neutralize it. Now one other thing people continue to
get wrong, despite the fact I've tried to clear it up repeatedly is that neutralizing Hawaii isn't the same as giving it 99 airfield and port damage. You can neutralize it by making it impossible for the Allies to base shipping or meaningful numbers and types of planes from there.
How can you do that cheaply? Simple, take bases around Hawaii and then
A. Sweep his fighters out of the sky. Each fighter you kill takes 12 tons of supplies to replace. 80 fighters costs him 1,000 tons of supples to replace.
B. Let his bombers hit you and just wear them down over time with fighters and FlAK. Each four engined bomber burns a LOT of supplies every sortie and costs 50 tons of supplies to replace or upgrade to.
C. Hit him with your bombers.
Many will look at this and go for the conventional, " but early war IJA bombers suck." I would respond that that's beside the point since their "military effectiveness isn't why you are using them. Think laterally about WHAT makes PEARL powerful..... What is the one thing without which it's guns and planes etc are all worthless? Yes, supplies.
So you fly the bombers in at an altitude designed to ensure e maximum number of FlAK guns fire at you but also high enough that that fire isn't that effective.Everyone can figure out that altitude for themselves. The bombers will make a few holes but the majority of their impact will be in forcing the AAA to fire LOTS of ammo. You don't even need large raids for this. 20 bombers is more than enou to get the AAA to fire a lot of ammo.
After a few months e Allied airframe pools will be exhausted and all of that AAA, which the enemy cannot shut off, will be running through their supplies at a massive rate.
By the time the USNJ is strong enough to intervene PEARL won't be able to upgrade empty squadrons to fighters as it won't be able to afford wasting hundreds of tons of supplies like that.
There are always vils advocates who will argue that if the Allies do x or y or. Whatever this will fail but, he'll, it's your job to innovate and overcome. In every game where I have wanted Pearl impotent in order to prevents it's use by the USAAF I have rendered it so. Why? I didn't waste time trying to close the airfield etc, except in the initial phase to cover landings. I focussed on it's true weakness, the lack of supply creation.
As to the rest... Oz is a dead end. You can neutralize Oz and Darwin by taking two minor bases without all of e bother and risk of invading Darwin and without leaving your forces open to the strong Australian army in overland counter-attack This can be done with no more than 300 to 400 AV in such a way that Darwin will be neutralized until a major Allied amphibious assault can be organized on one of these bases.
Those two, cheap gambits then leave the way open for India. I know the conventional wisdom is that India is inviolable because of the reinforcements which arrive hen you advance beyond a certain line but those reinforcements don't arrive in India. A proper strategic plan to take India can thus be designed to prevent them being a factor in it's capture. I've looked into it and India is most definitely doable - even with just the SRA troops although that would be relatively tough. Best thing is if the other two stratagems are employed the entire IJAAF force would be available to support the IJA in India while Netties prevent the Allied navies doing anything around Hawaii and Oz.
I believe the above is the most efficient way to achieve the greatest gain. Whatever you do don't let yourself be seduced by Oz. That's a deathtrap for Japan and any doesn't require much skill from the Allied land CO. India at least allows the better land CO to take advantage of a skill differential in a way which isn't possible in Oz.
Just my two cents really but Oz is a death trap..... And even if the Allies were utterly incompetent and let you take it.... So what? Off-map movement makes it irrelevant to the shifting of forces between fonts and ere are FAR cheaper ways to protect the southern DEI.
Hmm, you seem to be treating Hawaii and Oz and India as though they a operations requiring a similar investment. I think that while Oz and India are somewhat analogous Hawaii is a completely different issue.
Hawaii needs a very different force structure than either Oz or India and requires very little land forces and only a modest investment in terms of shipping and naval aviation. If you can find 500AV and divert KB for some time you can take e necessary bases around Hawaii in order to neutralize it. Now one other thing people continue to
How can you do that cheaply? Simple, take bases around Hawaii and then
A. Sweep his fighters out of the sky. Each fighter you kill takes 12 tons of supplies to replace. 80 fighters costs him 1,000 tons of supples to replace.
B. Let his bombers hit you and just wear them down over time with fighters and FlAK. Each four engined bomber burns a LOT of supplies every sortie and costs 50 tons of supplies to replace or upgrade to.
C. Hit him with your bombers.
Many will look at this and go for the conventional, " but early war IJA bombers suck." I would respond that that's beside the point since their "military effectiveness isn't why you are using them. Think laterally about WHAT makes PEARL powerful..... What is the one thing without which it's guns and planes etc are all worthless? Yes, supplies.
So you fly the bombers in at an altitude designed to ensure e maximum number of FlAK guns fire at you but also high enough that that fire isn't that effective.Everyone can figure out that altitude for themselves. The bombers will make a few holes but the majority of their impact will be in forcing the AAA to fire LOTS of ammo. You don't even need large raids for this. 20 bombers is more than enou to get the AAA to fire a lot of ammo.
After a few months e Allied airframe pools will be exhausted and all of that AAA, which the enemy cannot shut off, will be running through their supplies at a massive rate.
By the time the USNJ is strong enough to intervene PEARL won't be able to upgrade empty squadrons to fighters as it won't be able to afford wasting hundreds of tons of supplies like that.
There are always vils advocates who will argue that if the Allies do x or y or. Whatever this will fail but, he'll, it's your job to innovate and overcome. In every game where I have wanted Pearl impotent in order to prevents it's use by the USAAF I have rendered it so. Why? I didn't waste time trying to close the airfield etc, except in the initial phase to cover landings. I focussed on it's true weakness, the lack of supply creation.
As to the rest... Oz is a dead end. You can neutralize Oz and Darwin by taking two minor bases without all of e bother and risk of invading Darwin and without leaving your forces open to the strong Australian army in overland counter-attack This can be done with no more than 300 to 400 AV in such a way that Darwin will be neutralized until a major Allied amphibious assault can be organized on one of these bases.
Those two, cheap gambits then leave the way open for India. I know the conventional wisdom is that India is inviolable because of the reinforcements which arrive hen you advance beyond a certain line but those reinforcements don't arrive in India. A proper strategic plan to take India can thus be designed to prevent them being a factor in it's capture. I've looked into it and India is most definitely doable - even with just the SRA troops although that would be relatively tough. Best thing is if the other two stratagems are employed the entire IJAAF force would be available to support the IJA in India while Netties prevent the Allied navies doing anything around Hawaii and Oz.
I believe the above is the most efficient way to achieve the greatest gain. Whatever you do don't let yourself be seduced by Oz. That's a deathtrap for Japan and any doesn't require much skill from the Allied land CO. India at least allows the better land CO to take advantage of a skill differential in a way which isn't possible in Oz.
Just my two cents really but Oz is a death trap..... And even if the Allies were utterly incompetent and let you take it.... So what? Off-map movement makes it irrelevant to the shifting of forces between fonts and ere are FAR cheaper ways to protect the southern DEI.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Well, we really have not seen a lot of AARs where Japan goes after India. So it would be interesting from that standpoint. I would love to see how a fight pays out there. However, most Japanese players seem to want to get into OZ. I think this is the conservative but correct move. Aside from some extra production there is really nothing to gain in India. The war will be fought and won by the Americans in the Pacific. And holding N. Oz serves you (Japan) better than holding India. As an Allied player, I don't think it is wise for Japan to move that far into OZ. Just take the North Coast and penetrate to Daily Waters or maybe Tennant Creek (but that is difficult and dangerous. It take a tremendous amount to time to mount an attack overland in OZ to eject the Japanese. The supply path is poor and once the Allies push you out of Darwin, he will have a lot of troops in the wrong position-except for a push in the DEI ( which is why you take N. Oz in the first place).
I don't think all of OZ can be taken-especially vs Canoerebel but it is pretty obvious now that Canoerebel loves the DEI route.
You can take Hawaii, win the battle but it might cost you the war. Forget it.
I don't think all of OZ can be taken-especially vs Canoerebel but it is pretty obvious now that Canoerebel loves the DEI route.
You can take Hawaii, win the battle but it might cost you the war. Forget it.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
IIRC, in AE PH does create supplies, unless you commit enough airforce to bomb its light industry to dust.
As about the gains of invading India, a success there partially removes the dependence of Japanese economy on sea communications, because India has large amounts of fuel, resources and industry on a single landmass. As HI points are HI points, no matter where you produce them, they'll feed your weapon production even if Americans take everything up to Formosa.
As about the gains of invading India, a success there partially removes the dependence of Japanese economy on sea communications, because India has large amounts of fuel, resources and industry on a single landmass. As HI points are HI points, no matter where you produce them, they'll feed your weapon production even if Americans take everything up to Formosa.
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Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
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Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Would not another thing to consider be what sorts of points you can score on the different approaches since you are going for auto-victory?
Australia
-bases captured
-planes shot down
-some shipping
-ground units destroyed
PH
-bases captured (probably less than the other two but not sure since I have not looked up the values atm)
-alot of planes shot down
-quite a bit of shipping + maybe repairing BBs although these can be hard + will he deploy his US CVs in its defence?
-fewer ground units destroyed
India/Ceylon
-bases captured
-middle value (between Oz and PH) in planes shot down
-alot of shipping + will he deploy his RN CVs?
-ground units destroyed
And then another question for me would be; what if I do not achieve auto victory anyway?
Australia
-then you wait for the inevitable Allied counterattack which can arrive on either coast (although more likely at the east coast)
-you will have alot of units tied down defending Oz which cannot be used elsewhere
PH
-so you lose those bases and the units stationed there, but you will have reduced PH and gained alot of time, and he will need his CVs to take out your positions if you have alot of aerial units here
India/Ceylon
-alot of units tied down in defence not being usable elsewhere
-It is just as big for the allies, they too need AVs to garrison the areas, and there are alot of railroads allowing you (since you control the bases and the rail lines) to head for Burma in a quite rapid pace.
Anyway, I think I would go for PH or India/Ceylon, but that is just me.
Terje
Australia
-bases captured
-planes shot down
-some shipping
-ground units destroyed
PH
-bases captured (probably less than the other two but not sure since I have not looked up the values atm)
-alot of planes shot down
-quite a bit of shipping + maybe repairing BBs although these can be hard + will he deploy his US CVs in its defence?
-fewer ground units destroyed
India/Ceylon
-bases captured
-middle value (between Oz and PH) in planes shot down
-alot of shipping + will he deploy his RN CVs?
-ground units destroyed
And then another question for me would be; what if I do not achieve auto victory anyway?
Australia
-then you wait for the inevitable Allied counterattack which can arrive on either coast (although more likely at the east coast)
-you will have alot of units tied down defending Oz which cannot be used elsewhere
PH
-so you lose those bases and the units stationed there, but you will have reduced PH and gained alot of time, and he will need his CVs to take out your positions if you have alot of aerial units here
India/Ceylon
-alot of units tied down in defence not being usable elsewhere
-It is just as big for the allies, they too need AVs to garrison the areas, and there are alot of railroads allowing you (since you control the bases and the rail lines) to head for Burma in a quite rapid pace.
Anyway, I think I would go for PH or India/Ceylon, but that is just me.
Terje
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Well crouton, you're perfectly welcome to your opinion but:
A. "apart from some extra production there's nothing to gain with India"
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Firstly this game is ALL about logistics so to be so blasé about the boost India gives one is worrying in and of itself but to overlook the benefits of bottling up the British in Aden and the strategic space and time this gives one is rather short-sighted.
B. As to holding Northern Oz serving the Japanese more than india I'd say that's an amazing thing to say. Logistically, strategically, on the national policy level and even on the level of just trying to pit your strengths against enemy weakness instead of the converse oz is worse than India.
C. Taking Hawaii can be done very cheaply. To blithely suggest that taking it is war-losing without a supporting argument is untenable.
As to Canoerebel.... He is an opportunist. He has vague plans and often utterly scraps them when he sees an opportunity. He then proceeds, fails and analyses that he over-reached when really he just under planned and prepared. Show him opportunities you have prepped as plans and he will blithely wander into them time after time. There is no significant depth of strategic thought there. The DEI is a route suited to such a style as there are always some poorly defended bases in every direction and an opportunist will always make some progress. A strategist, however, will only take what he needs and will progress much more efficiently. This isn't Canoerebel.
I think that QBall should focus on strategic level conundrums for Canoerebel as that appears to be a significant weakness and traps should be based on the appearance of weakness and opportunity. From what I've read QBall has the strategic chops to actually push Canoerebel more in these ways than Canoerebel's more recent opponents so I'm looking forward to an interesting matchup....
Oz however is not the choice to be making vs Canoerebel. To each their own though.
As to Hawaiian light industry. Just bomb it to dust. Shouldn't cost more than a few planes if done right.
A. "apart from some extra production there's nothing to gain with India"
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Firstly this game is ALL about logistics so to be so blasé about the boost India gives one is worrying in and of itself but to overlook the benefits of bottling up the British in Aden and the strategic space and time this gives one is rather short-sighted.
B. As to holding Northern Oz serving the Japanese more than india I'd say that's an amazing thing to say. Logistically, strategically, on the national policy level and even on the level of just trying to pit your strengths against enemy weakness instead of the converse oz is worse than India.
C. Taking Hawaii can be done very cheaply. To blithely suggest that taking it is war-losing without a supporting argument is untenable.
As to Canoerebel.... He is an opportunist. He has vague plans and often utterly scraps them when he sees an opportunity. He then proceeds, fails and analyses that he over-reached when really he just under planned and prepared. Show him opportunities you have prepped as plans and he will blithely wander into them time after time. There is no significant depth of strategic thought there. The DEI is a route suited to such a style as there are always some poorly defended bases in every direction and an opportunist will always make some progress. A strategist, however, will only take what he needs and will progress much more efficiently. This isn't Canoerebel.
I think that QBall should focus on strategic level conundrums for Canoerebel as that appears to be a significant weakness and traps should be based on the appearance of weakness and opportunity. From what I've read QBall has the strategic chops to actually push Canoerebel more in these ways than Canoerebel's more recent opponents so I'm looking forward to an interesting matchup....
Oz however is not the choice to be making vs Canoerebel. To each their own though.
As to Hawaiian light industry. Just bomb it to dust. Shouldn't cost more than a few planes if done right.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Another thing that speaks for India in my opinion, is the fact that a Burma counter-offensive for the allies is very, very easy and effective for the Allies, as the supply equations are still borked - something that can be seen in almost every AAR out there. This requires - sooner or later - a large reinforcement of this area in order to stop them (for example, in your AAR vs Hemajor). Instead of having to reinforce the area to just stop the Allies, why not go on the offensive and force him to react?
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Underestimate CR at your own risk. Nemo states CR fails to plan precisely, yet I see him as someone who pushes the enemy defense until a weakness presents itself and he takes advantage of it. Does he change plans midstream, yes, but that is what happens IRL. CR plans overlapping advances and is not afraid of losses, i.e. playing to the Allied strengths.
Clausewitz states; No plan survives contact with the enemy, and; It is even better to act quickly and err than to hesitate until the time of action is past. CR makes great use of what Clausewitz called "friction".
Nemo is correct that logistics rule the conflict, especially in China. I would love to see QB try the Pearl Harbor gambit as it would force CR to act on an axis that he has avoided in all his other games to this point. A PH gambit would reduce the number of approach avenues that make CR's play style the threat that it is. Ironically, CR play's much more like Grant than any of his Southern heros.
Clausewitz states; No plan survives contact with the enemy, and; It is even better to act quickly and err than to hesitate until the time of action is past. CR makes great use of what Clausewitz called "friction".
Nemo is correct that logistics rule the conflict, especially in China. I would love to see QB try the Pearl Harbor gambit as it would force CR to act on an axis that he has avoided in all his other games to this point. A PH gambit would reduce the number of approach avenues that make CR's play style the threat that it is. Ironically, CR play's much more like Grant than any of his Southern heros.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
I feel that any large scale operations past the historical Japanese expansion in the Pacific are now realistically impossible because of the fuel situation in the overall game. It is my opinion that there is now not the levels of fuel to support large scale naval operations to obtain and maintain far flung bases in the pacific. That also there is not the fuel lift capacity to supply large operations in the Pacific and the Home Islands industry at the same time.
On Australia, my thinking that along with occupying Port Moresby that just a base at Port Headland is all that is needed to neutralize Darwin as a main Allied base. This base could be supported by naval forces based on Java, and also quickly reinforced from there. It can also be used as a forward refueling base for submarine and surface forces interdicting Allied seaborne supply traffic in the Perth area.
I think the key to Allied operations in India is Ceylon, who ever controls Ceylon controls the Bay of Bengal and all large scale supply movement to the Deccan and Calcutta. The Allies cannot launch any large scale ground operations in to Burma without a seaborne supply route to the Bengal.
On Australia, my thinking that along with occupying Port Moresby that just a base at Port Headland is all that is needed to neutralize Darwin as a main Allied base. This base could be supported by naval forces based on Java, and also quickly reinforced from there. It can also be used as a forward refueling base for submarine and surface forces interdicting Allied seaborne supply traffic in the Perth area.
I think the key to Allied operations in India is Ceylon, who ever controls Ceylon controls the Bay of Bengal and all large scale supply movement to the Deccan and Calcutta. The Allies cannot launch any large scale ground operations in to Burma without a seaborne supply route to the Bengal.
Both the victor
and the vanquished are
but drops of dew,
but bolts of lightning -
thus should we view the world.
Ôuchi Yoshitaka
1507-1551
and the vanquished are
but drops of dew,
but bolts of lightning -
thus should we view the world.
Ôuchi Yoshitaka
1507-1551
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
I like Nemo's thinking. Neutralize PH and Darwin. Hit India, Ceylon first. If you fall short of an auto victory you'll be presenting CR with so many problems that his striking back at you will be all the more difficult.
Todd
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Strategy: I appreciate all the thoughts and commments, and this sparked an interesting discussion. This really centers around the most important question of the game for the Empire: What do you do when the smoke clears in the SRA?
I think the first two months or so for the Empire are basically programmed; you MUST take Singapore, and the Oil; no choice there that I can see. You should move on Rabaul and Burma, it's open and there is no reason not to, especially as Burma has more OIL on tap.
So, the Japanese players first moves are programmed, but after that, you MUST be thinking about Phase 2: The most important part in the game. And ideally, you want whatever is happening in Phase 2 to feature a major landing before 3/31/42, when the landing bonus disappears. This BONUS is so critical to fast movement of Japanese forces.
Given all the comments, the main push will be INDIA. I do have to account for my flanks, so other moves:
AUSTRALIA: The keys to Southern DEI are Horn Island, and Port Hedland. Defending Horn also requires Port Moresby, plus an airbase cluster at Lae/Nadzab/Finchshafen. Can't allow the Allies to force the Torres Strait.
Port Hedland is less-easy to defend; with Corunna Downs you have a 2-airbase cluster, and another cluster back at Broome-Derby, but it's not as easy as the Torres Strait. Still, it's what you have. You can create space by moving further down the coast to Exmouth, Carnarvon, etc, but single bases are very vulnerable to a 4E supported smash-and-grab. The only good thing is that once the Allies round Exmouth, they better have Naval Superiority, as KB and friends can easily pin an Allied fleet against the coast and slaughter it completely. I've done that in another PBEM game.
Taking Northern Australia is pretty easy, especially if you ignore/isolate Darwin, which is the only point with any defenses.
So, one element will be limited landings/incursions to Northern Oz. I can accomplish this with the troops I already have in the Southern DEI, basically 2 Inf Regts, 3-4 Nav Gd, and a Tank Rgt.
HAWAII: I appreciate the strategy of isolating Pearl. I have reservations about this, not getting ashore, but rather the 4E threat. Nobody thinks you can keep Pearl closed; I am pessimistic that you can make Pearl run out of supplies;. The Allies will gladly risk xAKs to ship more in, so it would require round the clock vigilance to keep it unsupplied; I don't think Bettys are enough. A pile of AKs, plus a spate of bad weather and a little CAP, and the Allies can get supplies in. Bettys are a great weapon, but an unreliable one. Too many times I have screamed at the screen: "Launch, DAMMIT!"
If I am right and Bettys are not enough, then it's a losing strategy. Keeping a fleet out there would burn a ton of fuel, and either I need to keep MOST of the fleet out there, or risk a Naval Battle at inferior numbers. Tethering the Fleet to a specific geographic point is an invitation for disaster.
I also hate to do nothing to the USN and wait, so I need a strategy in the Pacific while I am out conquering India. Dan will try something, that's for sure, so maybe I can play off that somehow. How can I LURE him to attack something?
INDIA: We're going for India. We need to get there quick, because the Brits start very weak but get stronger every month. The quicker we get there, the easier it will be.
First order of business is taking Singapore. Can't do anything until that happens, other than Prep units. I AM prepping divisions in Manchuria and Home Islands for landing spots. I have not settled on where to land, however. Any suggestions? I need to take a look at defenses, particularly where the 9.2 CD guns are.
We probably should take Ceylon first. This will take alot of troops. Once that's done, however, we have alot of options for landings. Getting ashore on Ceylon should be easy, the hard part will be dislodging what figure to be alot of dug-in defenders.
I intend a lackidasical invasion of Burma; the more UK troops that are there when I strike, the better. Anyone that can will clear out of Burma without being pushed when I start attacking India anyway.
Anyway, all good thoughts, we haven't finished this discussion.
I think the first two months or so for the Empire are basically programmed; you MUST take Singapore, and the Oil; no choice there that I can see. You should move on Rabaul and Burma, it's open and there is no reason not to, especially as Burma has more OIL on tap.
So, the Japanese players first moves are programmed, but after that, you MUST be thinking about Phase 2: The most important part in the game. And ideally, you want whatever is happening in Phase 2 to feature a major landing before 3/31/42, when the landing bonus disappears. This BONUS is so critical to fast movement of Japanese forces.
Given all the comments, the main push will be INDIA. I do have to account for my flanks, so other moves:
AUSTRALIA: The keys to Southern DEI are Horn Island, and Port Hedland. Defending Horn also requires Port Moresby, plus an airbase cluster at Lae/Nadzab/Finchshafen. Can't allow the Allies to force the Torres Strait.
Port Hedland is less-easy to defend; with Corunna Downs you have a 2-airbase cluster, and another cluster back at Broome-Derby, but it's not as easy as the Torres Strait. Still, it's what you have. You can create space by moving further down the coast to Exmouth, Carnarvon, etc, but single bases are very vulnerable to a 4E supported smash-and-grab. The only good thing is that once the Allies round Exmouth, they better have Naval Superiority, as KB and friends can easily pin an Allied fleet against the coast and slaughter it completely. I've done that in another PBEM game.
Taking Northern Australia is pretty easy, especially if you ignore/isolate Darwin, which is the only point with any defenses.
So, one element will be limited landings/incursions to Northern Oz. I can accomplish this with the troops I already have in the Southern DEI, basically 2 Inf Regts, 3-4 Nav Gd, and a Tank Rgt.
HAWAII: I appreciate the strategy of isolating Pearl. I have reservations about this, not getting ashore, but rather the 4E threat. Nobody thinks you can keep Pearl closed; I am pessimistic that you can make Pearl run out of supplies;. The Allies will gladly risk xAKs to ship more in, so it would require round the clock vigilance to keep it unsupplied; I don't think Bettys are enough. A pile of AKs, plus a spate of bad weather and a little CAP, and the Allies can get supplies in. Bettys are a great weapon, but an unreliable one. Too many times I have screamed at the screen: "Launch, DAMMIT!"
If I am right and Bettys are not enough, then it's a losing strategy. Keeping a fleet out there would burn a ton of fuel, and either I need to keep MOST of the fleet out there, or risk a Naval Battle at inferior numbers. Tethering the Fleet to a specific geographic point is an invitation for disaster.
I also hate to do nothing to the USN and wait, so I need a strategy in the Pacific while I am out conquering India. Dan will try something, that's for sure, so maybe I can play off that somehow. How can I LURE him to attack something?
INDIA: We're going for India. We need to get there quick, because the Brits start very weak but get stronger every month. The quicker we get there, the easier it will be.
First order of business is taking Singapore. Can't do anything until that happens, other than Prep units. I AM prepping divisions in Manchuria and Home Islands for landing spots. I have not settled on where to land, however. Any suggestions? I need to take a look at defenses, particularly where the 9.2 CD guns are.
We probably should take Ceylon first. This will take alot of troops. Once that's done, however, we have alot of options for landings. Getting ashore on Ceylon should be easy, the hard part will be dislodging what figure to be alot of dug-in defenders.
I intend a lackidasical invasion of Burma; the more UK troops that are there when I strike, the better. Anyone that can will clear out of Burma without being pushed when I start attacking India anyway.
Anyway, all good thoughts, we haven't finished this discussion.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Meanwhile, back to the war........
Combat Report, Dec 24-26, 1941:
Allied CV Intel: After spotting ENTERPRISE off Sydney on the 23rd, another sub, I-169, spotted 3 TFs, including the USN CVs, off the Southeast tip of Australia, on a Southwest heading into the Tasman Strait. The torps missed again, unfortunately.
The good news is that we know where the USN CVs are. There is a chance Dan will know he was spotted and change course, but for now, they appear to be headed to the Indian Ocean, to raid the SRA.
I immediately planned to get KB and friends off the Northwest tip of Australia to arrange a reception. It would be a major coup to sink 2 CVs, and with the CVs down there, I can move freely elsewhere without fear of intervention.
But, we had our own intel problem......
SORYU spotted: I had detached Car Div 5 to Ambon, which combined with Baby KB might be enough to take on 2 USN CVs by themselves. Alas, just outside of Ambon, a Dutch Sub put a torp into SORYU.
So, he knows now I have CVs in the DEI. SORYU requires repair, so need to head to Japan. It appears to be a 30-day repair, so I don't think it will change the strategic situation, other than I don't think it will be easy anymore to ambush those CVs. Dang!
Malaya: We are advancing at a walk. I should have landed at Mersing; a slow-take of Singapore will turn out to be a problem for my India campaign.
Java: On the bright side, we are landing on Java within a week.
FALLEN BASES: Hong Kong, Balikpapan, Kendari, Koepang, Rabaul, Shortlands, Ocean and Nauru have all fallen in the last 3-4 days. We are approaching Kuala Lumpur on Malaya, and on Luzon, we have taken everything up to the gates of Clark, where the Allies are making their stand.
Within the week, I plan landings at Makassar, Kalidjati (on Java), Samarinda, and Tulagi, with Port Moresby about 10 days out. (and Horn Is. about 5 days after that).
So far I am fortunate on the OIL; Tarakan, Balikpapan, and Miri/Brunei were all captured with very minimal damage. Of course that won't matter if "the big one" is trashed......
Luzon: The Hong Kong troops are being shipped to Luzon, to reduce/destroy Clark. In WITP I would be bypassing Luzon at this point, but in AE it seems much more doable to quickly close it out, so we are going to go for that, and free up these units for India.
Combat Report, Dec 24-26, 1941:
Allied CV Intel: After spotting ENTERPRISE off Sydney on the 23rd, another sub, I-169, spotted 3 TFs, including the USN CVs, off the Southeast tip of Australia, on a Southwest heading into the Tasman Strait. The torps missed again, unfortunately.
The good news is that we know where the USN CVs are. There is a chance Dan will know he was spotted and change course, but for now, they appear to be headed to the Indian Ocean, to raid the SRA.
I immediately planned to get KB and friends off the Northwest tip of Australia to arrange a reception. It would be a major coup to sink 2 CVs, and with the CVs down there, I can move freely elsewhere without fear of intervention.
But, we had our own intel problem......
SORYU spotted: I had detached Car Div 5 to Ambon, which combined with Baby KB might be enough to take on 2 USN CVs by themselves. Alas, just outside of Ambon, a Dutch Sub put a torp into SORYU.
So, he knows now I have CVs in the DEI. SORYU requires repair, so need to head to Japan. It appears to be a 30-day repair, so I don't think it will change the strategic situation, other than I don't think it will be easy anymore to ambush those CVs. Dang!
Malaya: We are advancing at a walk. I should have landed at Mersing; a slow-take of Singapore will turn out to be a problem for my India campaign.
Java: On the bright side, we are landing on Java within a week.
FALLEN BASES: Hong Kong, Balikpapan, Kendari, Koepang, Rabaul, Shortlands, Ocean and Nauru have all fallen in the last 3-4 days. We are approaching Kuala Lumpur on Malaya, and on Luzon, we have taken everything up to the gates of Clark, where the Allies are making their stand.
Within the week, I plan landings at Makassar, Kalidjati (on Java), Samarinda, and Tulagi, with Port Moresby about 10 days out. (and Horn Is. about 5 days after that).
So far I am fortunate on the OIL; Tarakan, Balikpapan, and Miri/Brunei were all captured with very minimal damage. Of course that won't matter if "the big one" is trashed......
Luzon: The Hong Kong troops are being shipped to Luzon, to reduce/destroy Clark. In WITP I would be bypassing Luzon at this point, but in AE it seems much more doable to quickly close it out, so we are going to go for that, and free up these units for India.
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Q-Ball,
I don't normally pay much attention to Japan. However, in view of your open invitation for suggestions I thought some preliminary observations might be useful in helping you to focus your Phase II plans. Generally speaking there is much to recommend in what Nemo advocates, although I don't view Australia as being totally a dead end provided it is invaded for the right reason. The common reason advanced of capturing northern Australia in order to protect the DEI is not, IMHO the proper reason.
I believe that you and your opponent will determine victory in this match on the basis of VPs. That being so, the key question for you to answer is not what to attack in Phase II but how the necessary VPs for victory are to be garnered. I see at least 5 different strategies to accomplish this objective:
(1) possession of bases
(2) destruction of enemy units
(3) strategic bombing of Allied industry (and why Australia is not necessarily a dead end for Japan)
(4) maintenance of a strong Japanese economy in order to generate the materiel to stymie late war Allied moves
(5) denial of the Allied ability to engage in strategic point scoring
Where you move to in Phase II depends on which one of the above strategies is adopted. Of course the planning for Phase II will still required considerable work with several competing operational alternatives within each of the above five strategies.
Alfred
I don't normally pay much attention to Japan. However, in view of your open invitation for suggestions I thought some preliminary observations might be useful in helping you to focus your Phase II plans. Generally speaking there is much to recommend in what Nemo advocates, although I don't view Australia as being totally a dead end provided it is invaded for the right reason. The common reason advanced of capturing northern Australia in order to protect the DEI is not, IMHO the proper reason.
I believe that you and your opponent will determine victory in this match on the basis of VPs. That being so, the key question for you to answer is not what to attack in Phase II but how the necessary VPs for victory are to be garnered. I see at least 5 different strategies to accomplish this objective:
(1) possession of bases
(2) destruction of enemy units
(3) strategic bombing of Allied industry (and why Australia is not necessarily a dead end for Japan)
(4) maintenance of a strong Japanese economy in order to generate the materiel to stymie late war Allied moves
(5) denial of the Allied ability to engage in strategic point scoring
Where you move to in Phase II depends on which one of the above strategies is adopted. Of course the planning for Phase II will still required considerable work with several competing operational alternatives within each of the above five strategies.
Alfred
RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
Combat Report, Dec 27-28, 1941:
Allied DD Raid: An allied DD raid intercepted and basically wiped out a convoy of AKLs off Sakhalin. Although 10 ships went down, they were all 2-VP slow ships, only good for hauling coal and timber around the Home Islands.
I don't really care about the AKLs, and it's pretty risky to come that close to the Home Islands without losing some DDs. The biggest problem for me is that my air search didn't pick up on these guys, despite having a Betty unit at Bihoro patrolling the Sea of Okhotsk. Paramushiro Jima does not start with any AV support, I had a unit ticketed to go up there, so we'll do that and set up an airbase.
Snap landing at Palembang: I have been continuously Reconning Palembang; I didn't want Dan to withdraw the Malaya army there wholesale like Nemo did in that AAR. Can't have fortress Sumatra!
I had a large convoy of troops at Billiton, ready to land on Java. The unit count at Palembang, though, went to 3, so I decided on a snap landing there instead. We should take the base tommorow, and pick up most of those troops and proceed to Java.
If he wants to evacuate the Malaya army to the REST of Sumatra, that's fine by me; I just need Palembang relatively intact.
Samarinda: Samarinda fell intact, with all 100 Oil Centers unscathed! We'll know tommorow where we stand on OIL in general, once Palembang falls.....
Attacks Tommorow: We have a bunch of land attacks planned for tommorow, a big day potentially....
Palembang will be attacked, along with Kuala Lumpur and Temoulah on Malaya, Loyang in China, and Clark Field. I anticipate success everywhere but Clark, I just want to see how strong it is. The 38th Div is on it's way to Clark from Hong Kong, along with a pile of Artillery.

Allied DD Raid: An allied DD raid intercepted and basically wiped out a convoy of AKLs off Sakhalin. Although 10 ships went down, they were all 2-VP slow ships, only good for hauling coal and timber around the Home Islands.
I don't really care about the AKLs, and it's pretty risky to come that close to the Home Islands without losing some DDs. The biggest problem for me is that my air search didn't pick up on these guys, despite having a Betty unit at Bihoro patrolling the Sea of Okhotsk. Paramushiro Jima does not start with any AV support, I had a unit ticketed to go up there, so we'll do that and set up an airbase.
Snap landing at Palembang: I have been continuously Reconning Palembang; I didn't want Dan to withdraw the Malaya army there wholesale like Nemo did in that AAR. Can't have fortress Sumatra!
I had a large convoy of troops at Billiton, ready to land on Java. The unit count at Palembang, though, went to 3, so I decided on a snap landing there instead. We should take the base tommorow, and pick up most of those troops and proceed to Java.
If he wants to evacuate the Malaya army to the REST of Sumatra, that's fine by me; I just need Palembang relatively intact.
Samarinda: Samarinda fell intact, with all 100 Oil Centers unscathed! We'll know tommorow where we stand on OIL in general, once Palembang falls.....
Attacks Tommorow: We have a bunch of land attacks planned for tommorow, a big day potentially....
Palembang will be attacked, along with Kuala Lumpur and Temoulah on Malaya, Loyang in China, and Clark Field. I anticipate success everywhere but Clark, I just want to see how strong it is. The 38th Div is on it's way to Clark from Hong Kong, along with a pile of Artillery.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)
We probably should take Ceylon first. This will take alot of troops. Once that's done, however, we have alot of options for landings. Getting ashore on Ceylon should be easy, the hard part will be dislodging what figure to be alot of dug-in defenders.
My two cents: take Trincomalee but not Columbo. Install a squadron or two of Kates and feast on the British shipping. Dig in your ground-pounders and let the SEAC troops waste themselves against your defenses. (Mind you, this doesn't work if you don't care about victory points.)
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
--Victor Hugo
--Victor Hugo









