fuel to Oz question

[Sredni]

I've got like 10 xAK groups running fuel to perth from cape town in CS mode. Perth seems to hold onto 100k or so (and that's just because I have a bunch of ships docked there) and the rest spreads out to the rest of OZ easily.

I tested once where I had a billion ships in perth, and thus millions of fuel. I moved all the ships out to sea for a turn and all it took was a single day for all of that fuel to spread to the rest of OZ.

There is no limit to fuel flow from perth to the rest of OZ. If you're having problems with perth holding onto fuel then just move the ships docked at perth somewhere else.


I use my TK's with escorts to move fuel to PH and from PH to way stations like pago pago, suva, and mainly at this point noumea. Once the front moves I'll move where I store the bulk of my fuel. Rabaul looks to be the next place I'll stage from. All you need is a base that can be built up to 10 combined port/airfield (might be 9, not sure) and you have unlimited storage. A better base would be one with a bigger port of course for ease of offloading.

[moonraker65]

I'll stick with Adelaide. It's nearer to where I want the Fuel and Supplies to go to once they're offloaded.

[Mistmatz]

Generally allied TK don't have the legs to make a run from the East coast to Australia in one go. Especially if you have to take a reroute, eg Noumea, Suva or Pago Pago taken by the japanese.

So either you build up a hub for redistribution, which means the aforementioned problems regarding spoilage and/or slow unload/load times, or you let your TK refuel underway.

For the latter I'd use a few of the less valuable oilers (slow and/or short legged) and send them to a meeting point mid-ocean but preferably under your air cover and let your convoys refuel there. The imho big advantage is you save about 2-5 days unloading/reloading and don't use up port handling capacity. The disadvantage is there might be some additional micromanagment needed.

PS: If the waypoint system had say five waypoints rather than three, a much more sophisticated refueling scheme could be set up while still running the convoys out of harms way. With the current three waypoints I find it too dangerous in my game (Noumea taken) to use one of them as refuel stop and loose routing flexibility. So if there ever will be a WitP 2, I hope for more waypoints. [8D]

[crsutton]

You will have a major surplus of AK in 1942. I have use three very large convoys of AKs to shuttle fuel between the East Coast And Cape Town. If not, you may find yourself running short in Capetown. I use Capetown to feed Perth on occasion but mostly as a reserve for the DEI campaign to come later.
 
Otherwise,  as said here, ship from the West Coast.     

[John Lansford]

I use Tarawa and Willis Island as waypoints for my fuel shipments.  Tarawa supports CentPac, while Willis Island supports SWPac.  Willis is closer to the front than Pago Pago, and I can ship from there to Oz as easily as I can to Lunga.  Kavieng is rapidly becoming my forward base for SWPac though, and it's close enough to Tarawa that I can ship fuel from there to Kavieng, leaving Willis to ship fuel to Oz.

[moonraker65]

Way too dangerous. I wouldn't go anywhere near those areas until I have at least some Air Cover present which at the moment I don't. I had to retake Noumea and Luganville and have only just got reasonable Marine Corps Air Units there but they will be needed for the Solomons. So I guess I'll stick with Off Map for now.

[John Lansford]

moonraker,
 
I'm halfway through 1943 by now, but back in 1942 I was using Pago Pago for all my supply and fuel needs.  It was far enough east that the IJN didn't come raiding (they never advanced past Luganville, which I retook quickly), and with enough waypoints I could ship fuel from Pearl there as well.
 
Currently the AI holds Kwajalein and Roi-Namur but nothing else in the CentPac east of Truk, and I've advanced to Wewak and Sarmi on New Guinea.  The last major IJN warship I saw was a CA near Davao, and all his major early war CV's are reefs. 

[vinnie71]

I use a different variant. Short legged convoys are sent from Los Angeles to Christmas Islands (which can be expanded to level 4 port). Then I have my TKs split in 2 unequal convoys, one fast (16) one medium (14) speed. The first is essentially a kind of rapid reaction force and reaches those areas where fuel is needed while the latter is the heavy weight and reasonably fast, and is usually destined for Sydney. I chose Christmas Island because its below the radar for Jap subs and can easily have overlapping ASW coverage from nearby islands as well (Palmyra and another island).
 
Extra AK convoys with fuel go to either PH or Christmas Island depending on percieved need. It should be noted that Canton Island is vital for this route since it is the shield that protects the whole chain. other bases like Suva, Pago Pago and Noumoea are expanded only as required and in the interest of saving ships in distress. Again I try to push north to take over Ndeni (Lunga would be better but I'm always too late) as quickly as possible to focus the attention there. I also react rapidly to any Japanese attempt to take over Fanufati etc, since its easy to extend air recon from that area. Also I'm finding it very convenient to station US 19000 carriers along this axis for the first months in order to frustrate Japanese landings, while being able to repair them in Sydney. Obviously at least 2 repleneshment convoys are also organised in support for their operations.
 
I also usually have Brit Convoys coming either from Cape Town or Colombo. A fast convoy of mixed AKs and TKs (16-17 speed range) is the main hauler and I usually direct it through the Cocos Islands to either Darwin or Perth. Slower convoys of mixed AKs and TKs (14) are also sent along this way. The surviving Dutch and slow Brit Aks and Tks (12) are usually the cargo haulers from Cape Town as well. Now that I'm trying to hold Java, Darwin has become even more important as the short legged supply convoys can operate a short route in Soerbaja/Tiljap (ok you know the base I'm referring to![:D]).
 
I'm not sure that one needs taht much fuel in Oz, except to use it as a logistics base for offensives in DEI and Solomons. Also a lot of oil (crude) extracted from DEI and possibly other locations, goes a long way to supply the needs of Australia proper and I make it a point to move as much as possible in the first weeks or so, before the KB comes knocking.  

[moonraker65]

Oz does need fuel for it's HI. Hence why I've got 2 CS Convoys with a 3rd about to be sent to Colombo from spare ships in Brisbane that I'd moved earlier. If you don't keep Oz supplied then you don't get the Aircraft that are built there. Which certainly comes in handy for later moves in New Guinea and beyond. I use Adelaide for all Supply/Fuel drop offs as it's well connected transport wise. As I said it's down to personal preference and the scenario. Juan's WNT Enhanced CV variant (46) is certainly the hardest I've played against the AI so far as the Japs start off with more punch making life harder for the Allies early on.

[vinnie71]

Are you sure that if Australian HI isn't working, the ACs aren't produced? This is the first time I've heard it since I thought that HI in Australia can actually be shut down since all HI produced by Allies on map is cumulative....

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

I also usually have Brit Convoys coming either from Cape Town or Colombo. A fast convoy of mixed AKs and TKs (16-17 speed range) is the main hauler and I usually direct it through the Cocos Islands to either Darwin or Perth.

Now that I'm trying to hold Java, Darwin has become even more important as the short legged supply convoys can operate a short route in Soerbaja/Tiljap (ok you know the base I'm referring to![:D]).

If you still have Java your situaiton is quite different than if you had lost it. The Cocos route is completely untenable if the AI has Oosthaven; it makes it a huge Betty base and can reach out to much of the normal, non-waypointed CT--Perth routes. The Cocos are a happy hunting ground. You need to route tankers almost to the western map edge on the trip south to avoid the Betties.

Also, sending Abbadan and Aden fuel convoys to western Oz is OK until the AI scripts activate to send big carrier raiders into the IO (well north of Diego Garcia in my experience) and crush some precious tankers.

As others have said, a lot of the fuel strategy is personal preference. I think that building beautiful, complex way-stations east-west is nice, but by the time you have them humming, you usually don't need them (you have Tarawa back for example.) In the very early days of 1941--winter 1942, the AI floods the San Diego--LA area with subs as well, and your ASW is throwing fluffy pillows at them. Losing even 5-6 tankers here early hurts a lot.

I'm of the off-map camp myself. It's slower, and you have to redistribute in-theater from Perth, Adelaide, etc., and Sydney HI does suck up a lot of your effort, but it saves ships. I played a GC against the AI through August 1945, and to the very last day I didn't have enough tankers. I lamented those lost in the first six months through the whole war. Whatever else recommends against the off-map routes, those ships are safe for most of the trip.

[vinnie71]

In every game I have played up till now, I've always held Cocos Islands. Like Canton Island I think its one of the key positions on the map. Even after losing Java, Catalinas operating from Cocos alerted me of possible Japanese incursions as well.
 
BTW in my games I've never seen big carrier raiders in the Indian Ocean. Admittidely, I would sacrifice almost anything in the DEI in the first 2 months just to damage Japanese carriers, so most end up in docks, either in Singapore, Truk or HI. Maybe that is why I've never seen such raids. Maybe its a particular script that activates such raids or are they normal occurances?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

In every game I have played up till now, I've always held Cocos Islands. Like Canton Island I think its one of the key positions on the map. Even after losing Java, Catalinas operating from Cocos alerted me of possible Japanese incursions as well.

BTW in my games I've never seen big carrier raiders in the Indian Ocean. Admittidely, I would sacrifice almost anything in the DEI in the first 2 months just to damage Japanese carriers, so most end up in docks, either in Singapore, Truk or HI. Maybe that is why I've never seen such raids. Maybe its a particular script that activates such raids or are they normal occurances?

I held Cocos too, but they were difficult to re-supply in the face of Betty raids from Oosthaven. (Did I mention the AI loves to put Betties in Oosthaven?[:)])
I'd get some fighters in the Cocos to cover re-supply efforts, and they got pounded to mush every time. Resupply from Perth is a pretty long haul, and I wasn't prepared to assign mobile air cover, so they were a crap shoot. Tankers coming south from the Midlle East I thought were safe from Betties weren't.

The IO carrier raids are definately a script you may or may not get. I had two big "periods" of IO raids, one in early 1943 (based from Batavia I think, not sure.) The other was near the end of the war when the AI sent suicide runs of the Akagi and two DDs way up north, almost to the exit chutes from Aden. This one didn't survive, but the point is the AI tried it. I also sank a fair number of subs hanging around Karachi and points west (exit chutes), and dozens of ASW prosecutions between Colombo and Bombay. Tankers form the Middle East need to be routed far to the west as they come south, which means long-legged tankers. Shoving into Colombo to re-fuel going or coming back can be fatal if the AI has subs nearby.

[vinnie71]

Interesting. Thanks for the tips!
 
I have had several submarine attacks upon Colombo, despite the fact that I filled the place with mines (obviously AI sub must have dived beneath the mines[8|]). At least 3 times in 42 I believe, and usually there were two subs in tandem, one coming straight in Colombo and the other launching mini subs. MLs and DDs present really had a field day....
 
As to Betties in the DEI I never got them. Most of the Jap airforce ended up in malaya, Burma and Thailand engaged against the bulk of Commonwealth airforces + American reinforcements.

[Buck Beach]

I have experienced an early war nasty surprise at Canton, Is. and Pago Pago.

[LargeSlowTarget]

I use the short-legged tankers to stockpile fuel from LA at PH and from Abadan at Colombo. Then I use long-legged tankers from PH to Oz with a waypoint at Bora-Bora as a refueling stop. I have a few small AOs stationed at Bora-Bora which are refilled by a PH-BB shuttle of short-legged tankers). From Colombo other long-legged tankers go to Perth with waypoints along the map edge. No stockpiling in Perth, the fuel goes via rail to Sydney etc.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Interesting. Thanks for the tips!

I have had several submarine attacks upon Colombo, despite the fact that I filled the place with mines (obviously AI sub must have dived beneath the mines[8|]). At least 3 times in 42 I believe, and usually there were two subs in tandem, one coming straight in Colombo and the other launching mini subs. MLs and DDs present really had a field day....

I also had multiple forays of mini-subs against ports on the Indian mainland, but not Karachi. I have no idea how those are scripted, or if local ASW (such as YPs in the port hex) is effective in stopping them. I don't think any ever got a shot off. Mostly they ran aground, or got into ASW nets (as seen in the Ops Reports.)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I use the short-legged tankers to stockpile fuel from LA at PH and from Abadan at Colombo. 

For players early in their first GC game:

I got PH up to 5.5 million fuel once, and thought I was in the high cotton. It was fine for the Gilberts and Marshalls, and dinking around in the Solomons. I thought I was King Fuel when I had two (TWO!!!!) CV TFs running around near Rabaul, with a couple of old BBs at Lae.

Then I invaded the Marianas. With EXTREME effort I got Saipan to 2.2 million, and considered moving on the PI. But by fall 1944, I had twelve CVs in the area, with escorts, and a 15-BB bombardment TF. I went through a million fuel in two weeks. A million.

Once I got Manilla occupied I tried to get enough there to shift main ops from Saipan (bigger port, a shipyard of sorts), but I never got even a million into Manila, even though I had Balikpapan by then. The kamis ate the Balikpapan convoys alive, unless I routed them halfway back to Saipan and then west, destroying a lot of the utility of a forward fuel supply. If I put multiple CVEs with the tankers the kamis ate them first, then the tankers. The OpTempo in 1945 uses fantastic amounts of fuel. Stupendous amounts.

Guard your early tankers like the crown jewels. In 1945 I would have traded 50 APAs for 20 big tankers. I never got to where I wasn't hauling fuel in xAKs.

[karmannkc]

I'm curious as it has yet to be mentioned, but I seem to have a great deal of success with combining my TKs with my long haul xAKs in large Sydney/Melbourne & Auckland bound convoys. This gives my TKs the legs to make it from the WC and gives them added protection from subs as there a lot more targets for the subs to shoot at rather then just my TKs. Or is this a violation of some house rule or something?

But if you need to use bases to create different legs of your supply journey, Pago Pago is a good start, but if you are like me, your transport fleets keep getting bogged down by overwhelming your port docking limits, I would recommend building another supply hub at Vava'u which is a little bit south and west of Pago Pago, and you can build her up to a level 6 port. If you need yet another port then consider Savii as well, back in the Samoan Islands, can also be made into a level 5 port. The less time your fleets spend waiting for their turn in line to unload fuel and supply the more efficient your supply lines will be.

[Thayne]

I dislike taking the time to unload one tanker just to load the fuel into another tanker.

Once cargo (fuel or supplies) gets loaded onto any type of ship, it stays on that ship until it reaches its destination.

Ships with lower-endurance have their destinations set closer to the fuel depots than higher-endurance ships.

This includes transport ships travelling from USA East Coast to Cape Town. After arriving in Cape Town. They do not unload at Cape Town. Instead, they continue on to their destination.

Cape Town is a destination for some tankers operating out of Abadan. So far, it has not needed fuel from USA East Coast to refuel its cargo ships.

For refueling stations, I set them as close to the sources of fuel as I can so that ships leaving there can make a round trip to the desination and back on one tank of fuel.

Using this system, I can move hubs relatively easy if one becomes threatened, or if shorter supply routes become available. I do not need to worry about building up ports - nor do I need to worry about spoilage (except at desination points).

Exception: Front-line bases under the enemy air umbrella. I use smaller short-range transports travelling individually (not in convoy) for these missions, picking up cargo from a nearby hub. I am disinclined to risk larger transport ships on these missions. Plus, I have been finding (though it may be an illusion) that the enemy is less interested in attacking smaller cargo ships.