British 5th Divsion

[crsutton]

I have two pbemail game going. Both are scen#2 (You know the one, "Japs Gone Wild") Anyhow in one of my games it is early June 1942 and I see that I get the British 5th division at Mobassa. Well, it is a little beat up and only stays for about 200 days, but I am not complaining.

The odd things is, and I am not making this up, my other game is in January of 1943 and I never got this division-anywhere. Both games are scen #2. Both games were started last year when AE came out and both have gotten all of the patches up to the current.

Anyone have a clue about what happend here? I am not sure, we may have minor varible reinforcments in one or both games but still I should have seen this divsion by now in both games.

[Alfred]

Is it a reinforcement division only activated when the Japanese trigger it (eg moving north of Delhi, invading NZ, moving to SE Australia)?

Alfred

[witpqs]

In a patch it was removed entirely. Likely the game you see it in is before that patch, the others after.

[JeffroK]

In reality, the Division even arrived in India, even if only for a few months.

Another case of the developers forcing us down their perception of what should happen.

[Andy Mac]

Yup

[herwin]

The 5th Division was a high-quality unit, second only to the 2nd NZ Division among CW units that served in Italy.

[JeffroK]

Harry,

I'm sure you would get an argument from members of the 1st, 4th, 46th, 56th, 78th British, from 4th, 8th or 10th Indian (4th is often quoted as one of the best CW Divs) let alone the Canadians and South Africans.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Harry,

I'm sure you would get an argument from members of the 1st, 4th, 46th, 56th, 78th British, from 4th, 8th or 10th Indian (4th is often quoted as one of the best CW Divs) let alone the Canadians and South Africans.

Yes, but the 5th had a better batting average. [;)] The 78th came close, and the 2nd NZ was in a class of its own.

[RevRick]

Harry, that's just not cricket!

[Whisper]

Bits and pieces of 5th division, including the HQ elements staged through India in transit to Iran under Middle Eastern Command where they prepared for Mediterranean deployment. Since they were in the neighborhood, a part of 5th Division was used for the Madagascar operation in May 42; 6 Bns of infantry from 13th and 17th Brigades and 2 firing batteries from 9th Fld Regt. These pieces were withdrawn in July 42 and reunited with rest of division in preparation for Sicily. Was nonsensical to have the division appear in-game at all and especially have the whole division available for 7 months.

Yup, Another case of the developers forcing you down their perception of what should happen in light of what did.

[JeffroK]

5th Div Hq was in India between 21/5/42 & 20/8/42, 3 months not 7 months as Whisper says.
13 Bde & 91 Fd Rgt, which landed in Madagascar, arrived 2/5/42 and left 19/8/42
15 Bde arrived 20/5/42 and shipped out 12/9/42
17 Bde & 9 Fd Rgt also fought in Madagascar and landed in India 22/6/42 and left 13/9/42

Far from leaving for Persia to prepare for Sicily, the Division was there to protect the oilfields and Lend lease LOC from a Wermacht which was, at the time (Sept 42) blitzing through Southern Russia and pushing on the Alamein positions.

As crsutton has found, the game allows the IJA player to achieve ahistorical success, and the Allies struglle due to being tied to IRL force levels. A Division, or 3 seperate Brigade Groups fortified in a major port, just might force the IJA to rethink their approach.  Of course, the inability to stop the withdrawal of units means they will leave, regardless of the military situation.

Given the ability to put these units ingame, and have them withdraw on their historical date, is so easy in AE that you have to wonder why they dont appear. Plenty of units arrive on map rather than at a port and have them ship in), or at least their availability in Cape Town or Mombassa gives the Allies an option, its their choice whether to ship them in for 2-3 mths.

As a precedent, 1st Special Service Force (5196) arrives 04/07/43 and withdraws 09/09/43.

[witpqs]

The reason given was so that they are not basically used as a suicide unit.

[Andy Mac]

It was my call I dont think they had a material enough impact on the theatre to warrant inclusion
 
Especially given the under representation of troops tied up on COIN duties in that period in India and lack of off map Wehrmacht threat through teh caucaus were they in India yes am I going to include them no
 
I swithered but ultimately I am happy with the call made not to include the Div.
 
If you disagree and some do there the editor please feel free <shrugs>

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

5th Div Hq was in India between 21/5/42 & 20/8/42, 3 months not 7 months as Whisper says.

Get it right before you attempt to step on people.
In the original scenario it was in Mombassa and available for about 200 days (7 months). Whisper said that was nonsensical and said it was around from May to July (3 months) and was outside theater command and so doesn't belong in-game at all. I'll take 3 weeks in May and give you 3 weeks in August.

Far from leaving for Persia to prepare for Sicily, the Division was there to protect the oilfields and Lend lease LOC from a Wermacht which was, at the time (Sept 42) blitzing through Southern Russia and pushing on the Alamein positions.

As crsutton has found, the game allows the IJA player to achieve ahistorical success, and the Allies struglle due to being tied to IRL force levels. A Division, or 3 seperate Brigade Groups fortified in a major port, just might force the IJA to rethink their approach.  Of course, the inability to stop the withdrawal of units means they will leave, regardless of the military situation.

Given the ability to put these units ingame, and have them withdraw on their historical date, is so easy in AE that you have to wonder why they dont appear. Plenty of units arrive on map rather than at a port and have them ship in), or at least their availability in Cape Town or Mombassa gives the Allies an option, its their choice whether to ship them in for 2-3 mths.

As a precedent, 1st Special Service Force (5196) arrives 04/07/43 and withdraws 09/09/43.

Far from being a precedent, I think 1st Special Service Force is nonsensical too. Can't have it pulled from stock, but can pull it from DBB.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: JeffK

5th Div Hq was in India between 21/5/42 & 20/8/42, 3 months not 7 months as Whisper says.

Get it right before you attempt to step on people.
In the original scenario it was in Mombassa and available for about 200 days (7 months). Whisper said that was nonsensical and said it was around from May to July (3 months) and was outside theater command and so doesn't belong in-game at all. I'll take 3 weeks in May and give you 3 weeks in August.

Far from leaving for Persia to prepare for Sicily, the Division was there to protect the oilfields and Lend lease LOC from a Wermacht which was, at the time (Sept 42) blitzing through Southern Russia and pushing on the Alamein positions.

As crsutton has found, the game allows the IJA player to achieve ahistorical success, and the Allies struglle due to being tied to IRL force levels. A Division, or 3 seperate Brigade Groups fortified in a major port, just might force the IJA to rethink their approach.  Of course, the inability to stop the withdrawal of units means they will leave, regardless of the military situation.

Given the ability to put these units ingame, and have them withdraw on their historical date, is so easy in AE that you have to wonder why they dont appear. Plenty of units arrive on map rather than at a port and have them ship in), or at least their availability in Cape Town or Mombassa gives the Allies an option, its their choice whether to ship them in for 2-3 mths.

As a precedent, 1st Special Service Force (5196) arrives 04/07/43 and withdraws 09/09/43.

Far from being a precedent, I think 1st Special Service Force is nonsensical too. Can't have it pulled from stock, but can pull it from DBB.

Being in Mombassa doesn't make it available in India, as I stated.

The 7 mths in East Africa is bunk anyway, Div HQ shipped directly from the UK on 16/3/42 to India
and was in Iraq by 22/8/42 so that's 5mths with India in the middle.
13 Bde left the UK 18/3/42, 15 Bde 17/3/42 & 17 Bde 20/3/42 and all were in Iraq by 21/9/42 and none saw any time in Mombassa.

If we are going to leave out forces like 5Div or 1SSF, what about 3 US Div,the 2 US Armoured Divs and the Cav Bdes (H&M).

Andy, yep, its in my edition. I decide whether its worth the effort to amass the shipping to move it, not someone else. The greatest thing about WITPAE is the ability to edit what is provided and put in what I believe is correct, something Matrix should add to a few other games. Things like correcting OOB, start locations and arrival times.

Only playing against the AI, I don't see the need.

Playing PBEM, many would love the added security to thwart an IJA march on India or Ceylon.