How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight?

[gladiatt]

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum [X(].

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong [8|][;)]

edited for spelling, sorry guys

[LoBaron]

Me too. [:D]

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum [X(].

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong [8|][;)]

edited for spelling, sorry guys

Gladiatt while I agree that everyone is free to think what he wants, if someone expresses an opinion he has to
accept that this opinion will be weighted against other points of view, these viewpoints depending on where he chooses
to expresses that opinion.

This is why I don´t run around in conspiracy forums with my own opinions because I don´t think anyone there would give a damn,
I could not change anyone to believe something else than he likes and they would have a hard time convincing me that one of the
most adored complex "it was all a cunning plan" theories have a realistic chance of turning out right.
Basically I would be flamed out of the forum in no time. So I´d consider it a waste of time and energy.

This is why I am so deeply thankful that I found this forum a long time ago because there are people who have a natural
grasp for logical chains and practically everyone here is able to adapt his point of view in the face of reason.
That its 1 against the rest when it comes to such topics only confirms my viewpoint of this wonderful place in the internet.

[gladiatt]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum [X(].

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong [8|][;)]

edited for spelling, sorry guys

Gladiatt while I agree that everyone is free to think what he wants, if someone expresses an opinion he has to
accept that this opinion will be weighted against other points of view, these viewpoints depending on where he chooses
to expresses that opinion.

This is why I don´t run around in conspiracy forums with my own opinions because I don´t think anyone there would give a damn,
I could not change anyone to believe something else than he likes and they would have a hard time convincing me that one of the
most adored complex "it was all a cunning plan" theories have a realistic chance of turning out right.
Basically I would be flamed out of the forum in no time. So I´d consider it a waste of time and energy.

This is why I am so deeply thankful that I found this forum a long time ago because there are people who have a natural
grasp for logical chains and practically everyone here is able to adapt his point of view in the face of reason.
That its 1 against the rest when it comes to such topics only confirms my viewpoint of this wonderful place in the internet.

LoBaron, i fear i hadn't express myself correctly, and i apologize. I will try to be forgiven.

I am not saying that "the whole thread" is right or wrong. I read, and liked the argument and facts that each here explain.
That shouold enlight those like me who don't know exactly in details what happend at Pearl. That is a great mind training also.
That is also great to see people trying to argue in a polite and respectful way.
That's why , like you, i lurk on this forum since 2 years now. Yes, people are explaining logical events with real facts and reason. That's a way of thinking that try to use good sense, and to avoid "belief " or faith.
Faith is for God, i was once told. Facts are for science. History is a science, altough not perfect (i studied History for 7 years in University if someone wonder).

Now, if someone is all alone against the whole world, thinking that his belief, that no fact can back up, is the "truth", maybe he should leave the whole world free of being "wrong".

Don't know if now it is more clear : i never ever intended to tell that someone was wrong or right (although i have my opinion on the topic); just that sometime "leaving up" is better....

[LoBaron]

Double misunderstanding here.  [;)]
My post was not intended as criticism, basically we have a similar opinion.

Maybe I just wrote an a bit more elabourate response to make up for posting crap in this thread over the last few pages to express
my amusement over such a point of view.
Not that I´m sorry for that, thats just the way I am when confronted with something ridiculous.

What is amazing though, even if the origin of a debate may be ridiculous, it can very well lead back to a path where it gets interesting
again. A debate like the current one can contain nice gems of information. 
As it already happened quite often in this thread.

[gladiatt]

[Phanatikk]

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao

[sprior]

Because Brown was able to put "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" into novel form? Shame that book was discredited too...

[xj900uk]

Sorry, but I think everyone is reading too much into 'conspiracy' here.
For what it's worth, the US believed they were boxing the IJ into a corner, but they expected the IJ to behave like a western nation and either back down gracefully (at least for the short term) or else events would move towards a gradual declaration of war in the Spring of '42 (similar to the situation in the summer of Europe '39).
There was loads of information and speculation coming up from Washington which actually did very little to help their forces in the Pacific and PI. A surprise/sneak attack was not discounted, particularly after the translation/decoding of the '14-part' ultimatium that was coming back from the Japanese, and the fact that it finally mentioned a specific time (1pm Washington time, whihc was 8 am Hawaiian time) followed by instructions to destroy all of their decoding machines, vital documents etc was enough to raise eyebrows at the War OFfice and elsewhere. Important messages were sent out to everyone in the Pacific 'instructing officers and personnel to be on their guard as the actual significance of the deadline time was not yet known' but incredibly the PH notification was not received until nearly 3 hours after the attack due to somebody in the signals office not giving it a high enough priority (this is not a consipiracy, this is just good old fashioned plain incompetence layered upn yet more incompetence and complacency).
Finally, yes a few people in Washington thought the Japanese might do something really drastic with a surprise/sneak attack, after all Naval Intelligence could not confirm the location of their carrier fleet but had found some suspicious looking fleets going elsewhere south out of FOrmosa and in the South China Seas, but everyone thought it would be the PI that would get hit, not PH - that was a complete and utter surprise to everyone even the 'disaster mongers'

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao

Not because you express a different opinion. If there are 5000 users on this forum, there are 5000 different opinions. The "behavior" is being unable to let it go and let other people have an opinion that is different from yours. It can be seen as "trolling" because it only becomes inflammatory.

The "behavior" looks like this (apologies to Steve [;)] ):

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao

Not because you express a different opinion. If there are 5000 users on this forum, there are 5000 different opinions. The "behavior" is being unable to let it go and let other people have an opinion that is different from yours. It can be seen as "trolling" because it only becomes inflammatory.

The "behavior" looks like this (apologies to Steve [;)] ):

AND WELL YOU SHOULD!!![:D]

As my CC in booot camp used to say (company commander...Navyees for drill instructor) "Opinions are like A$$h@les, everbody has at least one, and everbody's stinks but yours!". Earthy, but wise (I almost said true![X(][8|])

[Kwik E Mart]

my innner thetan is disturbed by all this...[:(]

[Nikademus]

ack! wrong thread....i meant the OTHER overlong thread....only more fun!

[ChickenOfTheSea]

There is also this.

[USSAmerica]

Where's the printer?  [:D]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.

for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.

for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]

Kwik E Mart

In order to make you feel better, I believe the horse was photoshopped into the pic.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.

for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]

Kwik E Mart

In order to make you feel better, I believe the horse was photoshopped into the pic.

yeah, it's one of my favorite movies...
"Looks like you tend to miss a lot of work here."
"Well, I wouldn't exactly say that I MISS work..." [:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

yeah, it's one of my favorite movies...
"Looks like you tend to miss a lot of work here."
"Well, I wouldn't exactly say that I MISS work..." [:D]

"I'm going to show her my 'O-face'"

"I'm going to federal pound-you-up-the-a** prison!!"

I got a million of them. The best movie ever made for anyone who's worked for a corporation. Or owned a stapler.

[Schatten]

it was stupid for beginning to not attack Russia (even since they had some Oil Fields and other ressources in Asia, next to Japan too).

Anyway...IF you want SRA so there was anyway no need to attack the US....stupid planning.
Why Pearl and attacking Philippines? there was absolutly no need, Japan dont need them as long there was Peace with US.
Attacking them has only given Rosevelt the excuse to go into War he desperatly look for 3 years as he was not able to go into War without the Pearl Harbour Propaganda.

Except this there were so *easy* way to do it....simply ask Germany to tell the Dutch Puppet Administration to sell the needed Oil and Ressources to Japan for a *low* Price, this would compare the US Embargo nearly full.
Of course the local Durch Gouverment would by most possible denied to fullfill the Order but than the puppet Administration would be simply *ask* Japan to do a police action agains Rebels and it were than help and not War.

Clearly everyone would know the truth and the fact´s but at the peaper it would still look good and would not give US and *legal* reason to open the War, there were no treaties with Dutch (if they were US would clearly go in the War against Germany asap).
Mayby it were even possible to attack Singapore and Britain (as Ally of Germany that was in War with them) and still avoid a War with USA (there were no Treaties of Help betwen the 2 too).

It all would make it at the Paper look more good...good enough so the Peace Movement in the USA would not be crushed as it was after Pearl.

So stupidity and overconfidence at same time and place....anyway its now past.