Half-track armored personnel carrier

[cveta]

In WAW scenario halftracks are used as armoured trucks. Same transport capability and no fighting power. I would like to sugest that halftracks should be changed. We all know that Sd.Kfz. 251 for example was a armored fighting vehicle.

"The initial idea was for a vehicle that could be used to transport a single squad of panzergrenadiers to the battlefield protected from enemy small arms fire, and with some protection from artillery fire. In addition, the standard mounting of at least one MG 34 or MG 42 machine gun allowed the vehicle to provide support by fire for the infantry squad once they had disembarked in battle." - from wikipeida

So I gree that main role for halftrucks were to increase mobility of inf. units, add a transport capability and provide supressing fire.
So lets say that transport capability is reduced by 50% and add to halftracks power of MG unit and some AA capability ( 25% of flak maybe? )
Also - movement thru snow and soft tarain shold be better than thouse of trucks

I wouldlike to hear ideas about this?
Thanks

[cveta]

Lets not forget that halftrucks were used as a great recon units. If spoted they were fast to run from stronger units.

Here are some uses - from Wicikpedia:

There were 23 official variants, and sundry unofficial variants. Each variant is identified by a suffix to the model number. There was however some overlap in the variant numbers.

Sdkfz 251/1 - Schützenpanzerwagen. Standard personnel carrier.
251/1-I - As above, but with intercom facilities
251/1-II - Rocket launcher (called "Stuka zu Fuß" (Walking Stuka) or Wurfrahmen 40) equipped with six side mounted frames for launching 280 mm or 320 mm Wurfkoerper rockets.
SdKfz 251/1 - Falke Infrared detection equipment, to be used in combination with SdKfz 251/20 Uhu. Mostly Ausf. D variants.
Sdkfz 251/2 - Schützenpanzerwagen (Granatwerfer). 81 mm Mortar carrier
Sdkfz 251/3 - mittlere Kommandopanzerwagen (Funkpanzerwagen). Communications vehicle, fitted with extra radio equipment for command use in Ausf. C and Ausf. D versions.[2]
251/3 I FuG8 and FuG5 Radios
251/3 II FuG8 and FuG5 Radios
251/3 III FuG7 and FuG1 Radios
251/3 IV FuG11 and FuG12 Radios (with 9 m telescopic mast); Command vehicle variant (Kommandowagen)
251/3 V FuG11 Radio
Sdkfz 251/4 - Schützenpanzerwagen für Munition und Zubehör des leIG18. Gun-towing tractor, initially for use with the 7.5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18. Later used with the 50 mm Pak 38, 75 mm PaK 40 and 10.5 cm leFH 18 Light Field Howitzer.
Sdkfz 251/5 - Schützenpanzerwagen für Pionierzug. Assault Engineer vehicle with inflatable boats, assault bridges. Command Vehicle for Pioneer platoons (Pionierzug).
Sdkfz 251/6 - mittlere Funkpanzerwagen (Kommandopanzerwagen). Command version equipped with map boards, cipher and encoding machines in versions Ausf. A and Ausf. B.
Sdkfz 251/7-I - Pionierpanzerwagen. Another assault engineer vehicle with fittings to carry assault bridge ramps on the sides.
251/7-II - As above but with different radio.
Sdkfz 251/8-I - Krankenpanzerwagen. Armoured ambulance.
251/8-II - As above but with different radio.
Sdkfz 251/9 - Schützenpanzerwagen (7.5 cm KwK37). Equipped with a 75 mm L/24 low velocity gun, nicknamed "Stummel" ("stump").
Sdkfz 251/10 - Schützenpanzerwagen (3.7 cm PaK). Equipped with a 37 mm Pak 36 anti-tank gun mount. Platoon commander's variant.
Sdkfz 251/11 - Fernsprechpanzerwagen. Telephone line layer.
Sdkfz 251/12 - Messtrupp und Geratpanzerwagen. Survey and instrument carrier for artillery units.
Sdkfz 251/13 - Schallaufnahmepanzerwagen. Sound recording carrier for artillery units.
Sdkfz 251/14 - Schallaufnahmepanzerwagen. Sound recording carrier for artillery units.
Sdkfz 251/15 - Lichtauswertepanzerwagen. Flash spotting carrier for artillery units.
Sdkfz 251/16 - Flammpanzerwagen. Fitted with two flame projectors and initially a rear mounted flamethrower, detachable but still connected to the vehicle, to be operated by dismounted infantry. This was in addition to the standard MG34 machine gun and mount. Six Sd.Kfz. 251/16 Flammpanzerwagens were authorised for issue to each Panzergrenadier regiment.
Sdkfz 251/17 - Schützenpanzerwagen (2 cm FlaK38). Anti-aircraft use with either a 20 mm Flak 30 or Flak 38. Also a variant called "Schwebenlafette".
Sdkfz 251/18-I - Beobachtungspanzerwagen. Artillery observation vehicle.
251/18-Ia - Differences unknown, likely different radio fit.
251/18-II - Armored observation vehicle.
251/18-IIa - Different radio.
Sdkfz 251/19 - Fernsprechbetriebspanzerwagen. Telephone exchange vehicle.
Sdkfz 251/20 - Schützenpanzerwagen (Infrarotscheinwerfer) Uhu Mounted an Infrared searchlight for night fighting.
Sdkfz 251/21 - Schützenpanzerwagen mit Fla MG Drilling. Equipped with a triple-mount ("Drilling" in German means "triple") of MG151 autocannon; early version being MG151/15 mm cannon, later being MG151/20 mm Luftwaffe cannon.
Sdkfz 251/22 - 7.5 cm PaK40 L/46 auf Mittlerem Schützenpanzerwagen. Fitted with a 75 mm PaK 40 anti-tank gun.
Sdkfz 251/23 - 2 cm Hängelafette 38 auf Mittlerem Schützenpanzerwagen. Recon version, rare- same turret as a 234/1 or a 222.[3]

[Josh]

I absolutely agree with you, there should be far more unit types in the game and most of AT players would agree with you too. It cerainly would add more flavour to the game. Then again, how would this work out gamewise? I know there were armoured halftracks with an AT gun, and it would be nice to have them ingame, but gamewise it's the same as an halftrack with a separate AT gun. Advanced Tactics would need a serious overhaul to make all these new units worthwhile to produce. Besides, adding all that, and finding all the appropriate pictures takes a *lot* of time.
So my hopes are on AT2, maybe then we have some more unit types.

[GrumpyMel]

Cveta,

That's pretty much the route I took with half-tracks in my European Theatre of Operations scenerio. Lower carry and transport capacity then a truck but with recon ability and some infantry fire support and better survivability due to light armor.

It was also used as platform for other weapon systems (particularly the US M3).

Currently I have the following modeled in the system

German = SDKFZ 251
UK = Bren Carrier (- This typicaly mounted a BOYS AT Rifle as well as a BREN MG, so has a little AT capability)
US = M2 Half-Track (was phased out before US War Entry)
M3 Scout Car
M3 Halftrack
M3 GMC (basicaly the first US Tank Destroyer. Mounted an field gun on an M3 Chasis, was used in North Africa)
M16 GMC (Self-Propeled AA ... mounted a Quad .50 cal AA pod)

The US halftracks have a little bit of AT capability as well....essentialy the .50 cal HMG's have some capability to penetrate light armor... Those things were real monsters.

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: Josh

I absolutely agree with you, there should be far more unit types in the game and most of AT players would agree with you too. It cerainly would add more flavour to the game. Then again, how would this work out gamewise? I know there were armoured halftracks with an AT gun, and it would be nice to have them ingame, but gamewise it's the same as an halftrack with a separate AT gun. Advanced Tactics would need a serious overhaul to make all these new units worthwhile to produce. Besides, adding all that, and finding all the appropriate pictures takes a *lot* of time.
So my hopes are on AT2, maybe then we have some more unit types.

Josh,

Gamewise it does work a little different then having a seperate AT-Gun and Halftrack. Basicaly it comes down to targeting. Essentialy with seperate SFT's, if the targeting unit happens to pick the AT-Gun it will use it's Attack Power against the Artillery SFT type and the AT-Gun will defend with it's own hit points. If the targeting unit happens to pick the halftrack it will roll it's attack power versus the halftracks SFT Type (Soft Mobile in basic AT, I believe, although should probably be Armor, IMO) and use the halftracks hit points to defend.

With a combined unit, it always uses the halftracks SFT type and hit points on defense. There are advantages and disadvantages to both... but the big difference depends on how deadly the attacker is to guns as compared to vehicles. The combined unit is essentialy a very light Tank Destroyer.

[Josh]

Thx for clearing that up. Well I knew it wasn't exactly the same, but as long as we don't have toys such as these to play with I might as well think of it as halftrack+AT gun=assault gun [:)]
Not so sure how succesful they really were IRL, the gun itself has more than proved itself, but I have no clue as to how succesful their marriage was [&:]

Hm, lots of SdKfz pictures here http://panzerkeil.dre.hu/harcjarm/spw/s ... kfz251.htm
it's Hungarian, and unfortunately my Hungarian is a bit... rusty [:D]

[cveta]

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Cveta,

That's pretty much the route I took with half-tracks in my European Theatre of Operations scenerio. Lower carry and transport capacity then a truck but with recon ability and some infantry fire support and better survivability due to light armor.

It was also used as platform for other weapon systems (particularly the US M3).

Currently I have the following modeled in the system

German = SDKFZ 251
UK = Bren Carrier (- This typicaly mounted a BOYS AT Rifle as well as a BREN MG, so has a little AT capability)
US = M2 Half-Track (was phased out before US War Entry)
M3 Scout Car
M3 Halftrack
M3 GMC (basicaly the first US Tank Destroyer. Mounted an field gun on an M3 Chasis, was used in North Africa)
M16 GMC (Self-Propeled AA ... mounted a Quad .50 cal AA pod)

The US halftracks have a little bit of AT capability as well....essentialy the .50 cal HMG's have some capability to penetrate light armor... Those things were real monsters.

Unfortunatly I didnot play this scenario.Can you give me fast info how well they ( do people use them) do and did you add some other units as well

[GrumpyMel]

Actualy I don't know...as I just pushed the scenerio upto the sandbox a few days ago....hasn't been played by others yet. I think they should turn out to be pretty usefull....but the proof really won't be until people have played it a bit...and I get to see how people feel about them and use them.
 
I certainly am using them during my own play testing....but then as the designer I'm bringing my preconceptions about how things should play out...which may not neccesarly hold true once other folks get thier hands on it.

[srndac]

cveta I don't know if you like random games in AT, but ... there is a masterfile where (among other things) you can research better halftracks - and each level comes with improved weaponry.

It's the 'generic to the 17th masterfile (v3)' mod made by 'ssfsx17' - you can check it out on AT Community Website.

[cveta]

Thanks for thouse answers. I got the idea. But still I think that a WAW will be better if halftrucks are adopoted